JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 Xiaolong

Steven Rogers

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Again, your media consistently trips over itself with simple designations.

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...-barak-8-long-range-missile-from-ins-kolkata/



Barak 8ER IS NOT OPERATIONAL neither is its army counterpart LRSAM. And even if it was, neither could intercept a launching platform from 200+ km.
Barak 8 is LRSAM, now don't strip the claims made, you said that It is not operational, I gave the link that confirms it is operational since 2015, and then it had 70kms range, I provided link detail from 2017, and now ships have updated barak 8 with respect to range. See the date first of the article before jumping.

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Guest

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Chinese Navy AAW destroyers carry LONG RANGE air defense missile systems mate. Interceptors with 100km+ ranges that can shoot down high flying ASM's like Brahmos in its high altitude cruise phase. I'm not claiming impossible nonsense unlike some.

Don't prate Wikipedia figures at me mate. Both the land-based (MRSAM) and naval Barak 8 have the same 70km range Chief. Neither of which can magically intercept a JF17 from 200+km away.



http://www.janes.com/article/69434/india-signs-mrsam-deal



2 ships with 70km range missile could create a 140km buffer around a carrier from certain approaches. Where are you getting this 360km figure from?
Barak's range is 100km, It has been tested upto 90km. So the 90km figure I quoted for a high flying object is conservative.

It has the capability to perform maneuvers at 80G much better than the Chinese S-300 series copies capable of 40G.

So If a Chinese missile can shoot down Brahmos, flying Mach 3 at low altitude, A Barak 8 can definitely kill a rocket flying high at ~1-2 Mach.

Again you never understood the concept of area defense so I will leave It here.

PS: You should also brush up mathematical skills. I said a circle of 90 km radius, i.e. 180 km in diameter. And off course there won't be just two ships defending the Carrier, the carrier itself has Barak 8 defenses, Add the Talwars as well to cover any gap whatsoever between Barak-8 equipped Destroyers.
 

J20!

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AS34 kormoron, SSM N8 REGULUS, and many other cruise missiles which use a rocket motor than a jet engine. Thus can't sustain the speed they claim.

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N8 Regulus was a turbo-jet powered cruise missile. Germany's AS34 was a rocket powered cruise missile with a 35km range. Neither of these followed a ballistic trajectory chief.

AGAIN CM400AKG is NOT A CRUISE MISSILE. It follows a ballistic flight path from launch to impact which is why it has a 250km range and why the land based SY400 its derived from has a 400km range. They are ballistic missiles.
 

aghamarshana

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You're tripping over your own designations. Barak 8 installed on D63, D64 and D65 are all 70km range SAMs. From your own source:



LRSAM/Barak 8-ER is NOT in service with the IN. People here tend to confuse future improvements with facts on the ground(or the sea in this case).
BARAK 8 has an operational range of 90 kms,and we are not dreaming of future scenarios where a JF17 gets the courage to launch a long range missile targetting an Indian CBG.As of today,Pakistan CANNOT hit our CBG evading the multi-tiered defences which are guided by sophisticated radars.If in future full scale conflict scenario pakistan tries to hit our carriers,there would be no airfields left in the coastal Pakistan,not to mention the devastation imposed on Karachi and Gwadar harbours.As mentioned by @Steven Rogers ,the MiG 29Ks wouldn't be sitting over the deck of the carrier laying eggs.The fact is CBG is a floating fortress with real threat posed by lurking subs,if pakistan could spare some even after the debacle of Ghazi,it indeed would be a commendable decision.There is complete airspace domination over a Carrier,and yes the SAMs may not target the launch platform JF17,but the incoming missile would be neutralised for sure.The scenario where a JF17 would strike a carrier from 200 kms is akin to throwing a stone on mud and running away.BVRAAMs would chase the JF17s before further strikes.And in future if Pakistan upgrades it's fleet to a Navy(now it has more of a Coast Guard role),coming out of it's territorial waters,we'd have a lot more toys in our possession to play with.
 

Steven Rogers

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N8 Regulus was a turbo-jet powered cruise missile. Germany's AS34 was a rocket powered cruise missile with a 35km range. Neither of these followed a ballistic trajectory chief.

AGAIN CM400AKG is NOT A CRUISE MISSILE. It follows a ballistic flight path from launch to impact which is why it has a 250km range and why the land based SY400 its derived from has a 400km range. They are ballistic missiles.
They were the vintage cruise missile, again you're wrong, what's the altitude ceiling of AKG400, last I heard around 14kms, how it can cover 250kms of distance with a ballastic trajectory with such low altitude .

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J20!

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Barak's range is 100km, It has been tested upto 90km. So the 90km figure I quoted for a high flying object is conservative.

It has the capability to perform maneuvers at 80G much better than the Chinese S-300 series copies capable of 40G.

So If a Chinese missile can shoot down Brahmos, flying Mach 3 at low altitude, A Barak 8 can definitely kill a rocket flying high at ~1-2 Mach.

Again you never understood the concept of area defense so I will leave It here.

PS: You should also brush up mathematical skills. I said a circle of 90 km radius, i.e. 180 km in diameter. And off course there won't be just two ships defending the Carrier, the carrier itself has Barak 8 defenses, Add the Talwars as well to cover any gap whatsoever between Barak-8 equipped Destroyers.
Fanboys are exhausting to converse with. Corrections.

Most of Brahmos's flight path like the Yakhont its derived from is a HIGH ALTITUDE CRUISE PHASE that can go as high as 15 000m.

http://www.claws.in/images/journals_doc/SW-Autumn2010.135-138.pdf

Any 100+km LR ADM system will have multiple intercept solutions before the ASM begins its terminal low altitude approach. Mind you, I'm not making the ridiculous claim that HHQ9's can intercept ASM launchers from 200+ km away.

You posted:

The whole reason behind area defense is neutrality of huge areas in air, a 90km range Barak 8 means, 90 km radius circles covered, add two ships two circles cover a length of total 360 km.
Unless you're suggesting that IN carriers are going to be escorted by 4 Air Defense Destroyers at any one time. a 360km air defense bubble can only be provided by the carrier's own embarked CAP aircraft.

This is all beside the point. Argue all you like gents, but no 70km range SAM ( not even a 150km range SAM) can intercept a jet launching ASM's from 200+km away.
 

Steven Rogers

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Fanboys are exhausting to converse with. Corrections.

Most of Brahmos's flight path like the Yakhont its derived from is a HIGH ALTITUDE CRUISE PHASE that can go as high as 15 000m.

http://www.claws.in/images/journals_doc/SW-Autumn2010.135-138.pdf

Any 100+km LR ADM system will have multiple intercept solutions before the ASM begins its terminal low altitude approach. Mind you, I'm not making the ridiculous claim that HHQ9's can intercept ASM launchers from 200+ km away.

You posted:



Unless you're suggesting that IN carriers are going to be escorted by 4 Air Defense Destroyers at any one time. a 360km air defense bubble can only be provided by the carrier's own embarked CAP aircraft.

This is all beside the point. Argue all you like gents, but no 70km range SAM ( not even a 150km range SAM) can intercept a jet launching ASM's from 200+km away.
A s300 based heavy and old Sam which cant take maneuvers can't intercept a target traveling a preprogrammed variable path of various objectives, for avoiding the best possible engagement of a missile with interceptor, it's certainly not possible to intercept a modern AsHM which flies at different paths, and cruises as low as 3 mts, and has low level cruising range of 120kms with an over 1 ton missile which is based on old soviet design interceptor which was designed to intercept High flying targets flying at predictable trajectory.

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Steven Rogers

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J20!

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BARAK 8 has an operational range of 90 kms,and we are not dreaming of future scenarios where a JF17 gets the courage to launch a long range missile targetting an Indian CBG.As of today,Pakistan CANNOT hit our CBG evading the multi-tiered defences which are guided by sophisticated radars.If in future full scale conflict scenario pakistan tries to hit our carriers,there would be no airfields left in the coastal Pakistan,not to mention the devastation imposed on Karachi and Gwadar harbours.As mentioned by @Steven Rogers ,the MiG 29Ks wouldn't be sitting over the deck of the carrier laying eggs.The fact is CBG is a floating fortress with real threat posed by lurking subs,if pakistan could spare some even after the debacle of Ghazi,it indeed would be a commendable decision.There is complete airspace domination over a Carrier,and yes the SAMs may not target the launch platform JF17,but the incoming missile would be neutralised for sure.The scenario where a JF17 would strike a carrier from 200 kms is akin to throwing a stone on mud and running away.BVRAAMs would chase the JF17s before further strikes.And in future if Pakistan upgrades it's fleet to a Navy(now it has more of a Coast Guard role),coming out of it's territorial waters,we'd have a lot more toys in our possession to play with.
Barak 8 claims aside, everything in your post is true. It would be hard for any opposing forces to assault a CBG wih ASM carrying jets alone considering the carrier's CAP fighters. What I dispute is this:

Barak 8, and s400. Good luck keeping your fighters in the air long enough. They wont get too far from the runway.
Barak 8 CANNOT INTERCEPT A PLATFORM LAUNCHING ANTI-SHIP MISSILES FROM 200+km OUT. IT DOES NOT HAVE THE RANGE. Simple. Even if Barak 8 had a 90km range, it still wouldn't matter.

Barak 8 could intercept the missile. Not the firing platform. Any argument against that straight-forward fact is BS.
 
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J20!

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A s300 based heavy and old Sam which cant take maneuvers can't intercept a target traveling a preprogrammed variable path of various objectives, for avoiding the best possible engagement of a missile with interceptor, it's certainly not possible to intercept a modern AsHM which flies at different paths, and cruises as low as 3 mts, and has low level cruising range of 120kms with an over 1 ton missile which is based on old soviet design interceptor which was designed to intercept High flying targets flying at predictable trajectory.

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...............................................whatever you say...
 

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Fanboys are exhausting to converse with. Corrections.

Most of Brahmos's flight path like the Yakhont its derived from is a HIGH ALTITUDE CRUISE PHASE that can go as high as 15 000m.

http://www.claws.in/images/journals_doc/SW-Autumn2010.135-138.pdf
Brahmos is much more than Yakhont++ comparing the two is like comparing Su27 with Su35 since both have same origins. Brahmos has been tested at 10 meter high flight path for 120km in Low, Low, Low mode.

Any 100+km LR ADM system will have multiple intercept solutions before the ASM begins its terminal low altitude approach. Mind you, I'm not making the ridiculous claim that HHQ9's can intercept ASM launchers from 200+ km away.
Use the same thinking in case of Carrier Battle group defense of India. I never said the missile from the target i.e. the Carrier here has to stop the attacker and missile. The forward defenses will ensure that the carrier stays out of harms way, and that includes the carriers combat fighter wing.

Unless you're suggesting that IN carriers are going to be escorted by 4 Air Defense Destroyers at any one time. a 360km air defense bubble can only be provided by the carrier's own embarked CAP aircraft.

This is all beside the point. Argue all you like gents, but no 70km range SAM ( not even a 150km range SAM) can intercept a jet launching ASM's from 200+km away.
Again go back and study mathematics, A Barak 8 can fly in any direction from the launch ship 360 degree, so the area covered will be 90km radius Circle i.e. 180km diameter, two ships can cover ~360km positioned 180km away from each other.
 

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How exactly is a 70km missile going to intercept an aerial platform launching from 200+ km away? The best such a medium range SAM could do is try intercept the CM-400AKG no?

Or does the IN have plans to integrate S400 onto its Air Defense ships?
You never know what these fanboys are up to :p
 
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Dazzler

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So the S400 is going to shoot down Pakistani anti-ship strike formations from the coast? Why would they expose themselves to land-based surface to air fire if they are attacking naval formations out to sea?

You're making very little sense mate.
Some of these loud mouth fanboys dont know zilch about S-400 they think 400 means it iis able to engage targets sitting 400 km away :rofl:
 
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Dazzler

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Pakistan, Chinese or even Russians can't paint it on radar the INS Vikky, it's EW suite won't allow it
yes they can, what do you think Erieye and ZDK-03 were bought for. Your CBG will be be painted and shine bright from at least 400 kms away
 
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Steven Rogers

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Some of these loud mouth fanboys dont know zilch about S-400 they think 400 means it iis able to engage targets sitting 400 km away :rofl:
40N6 has 400kms of range and is designed to take down strategic targets. Now I have reasons why all the Pakis are mouth piece of China.

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Steven Rogers

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yes they can, what do you think Erieye and ZDK-03 were bought for. Your CBG will be be painted and shine bright from at least 400 kms away
Now that's called fanboyism, your "turboprop" aew can't do that at 400kms specially those ships which are designed with reduced rcs unlike avg Pakistani ships and with changing horizon at the sea, and comparing electronic warfare equipments of a 45000tons ship to a turboprop is a joke. Their are ECMs installed on Indian navy ships which tracks LPI radar signals, so rip with that old radar.

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yes they can, what do you think Erieye and ZDK-03 were bought for. Your CBG will be be painted and shine bright from at least 400 kms away
Let's assume, the ZDK-03 and Erieye is able to see the CBG from 400 km away, If they at all survive the internal jihadi officers of PAF and PN who are ever ready to blow up surveillance planes like P-3 Orions, Erieye etc and kidnap Frigates to do Jihad.

What will that seeing do ? still have to approach the group and fight with them with ships, submarine and weapon. Let me save the trivial part for you, modern satellites track the movement of every CBG in the world. Yes you can see them from space. So you can save the Erieyes from Indian Navy at least, by not risking them against Mig29Ks still that would be futile as the jihadi officer from PAF will blow it anyway.

in the meantime, the thunder continues its CAPs...

View attachment 23342
CAP without any weapon, :facepalm: only a Porki pilot would do that. :hehe:
 

jat

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WTF is going on here. The JF-17 on antiship patrols just sounds stupid. What is the range of the JF-17? Its not much, nore is payload. How many bases, aircraft dedicated to finding the CBG of IN? its absurd. The only thing IN would have concern for is the half a dozen submarines or so that may survive the initial strike.
Lets be real. With our IN, IAF the Indian army alone would kick Pakistans ass into Afghanistan. Thats a brutal truth. There is not enough assets of PAF or PN to stop the IA, at best these are speed bumps. Everything about Pakistan military is about looking for low cost effective weapons. The problem is, this approach doesn't stop the threat, just slows them down. There is no formula that can save Pakistans military from India.
JF-17 is not prime choice for maritime strike. The single engine RD-33, is a stupid idea, according to russians as well.
 

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