JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 Xiaolong

[Defcon 1]

Nevermind.

 

[p2prada]

So the russian MKI will have israel/french avionics?

it might not be identicle to indian Su30mki

No it is not identical to MKI because the SMs configuration could very well be much more advanced. There is a chance the SMs are already equipped with the Bars AESA, if not the regular radar.

Also, there isn't a major difference between Russian and Indian MKI where foreign components are concerned. Indian MKI has Indian computers and EW equipment. The current jammer is Israeli. The only other major Israeli component would be the HUD and MFDs. Not a big deal there, the Russians have already shown to the world their latest gear in EW like the SAP-14 and SAP-518 jammers and their latest Su-35BM cockpit as well. So, they have no need of Israeli systems that we have on MKI.

As for French, the biggest French component on MKI is the Totem 3000. It is a GPS based INS system that is used for navigation. The Russians have GLONASS. Period. So, they don't need foreign systems.

The only reason why we have foreign systems is because back in late 90s and early 2000s the Russians did not have GPS systems or the latest cockpit designs like the French and Israelis did. You can say the Super MKI will replace all of this with Indian and Russian systems.

i do agree flankers maintenance cost is high

That is horrendously wrong. Yes, it is higher than the F-16. But the MKIs maintenance costs for a twin engine aircraft is extremely low.

As a matter of fact this is what helped the Russians clinch the deal in Malaysia against SH. The SH came at 3x the lifecycle costs as the MKM. The Malaysians also figured that the newest SH 2006 model would still be 1.5-2x more than MKM. So, this gives you an idea on how cheap the MKI really is while the effectiveness is known to everybody. You can say the MKI is the best when it comes to cost vs capability in the market, even better than JF-17 or Gripen. The HAL made MKIs barely cost above $40Million to produce in India. A decade ago, it was $22-30 Million. The 2009 version of MKMs with South African EW systems came at $50Million. Even today, the MKM is competing in the Malaysian tender for $50Million.

 

[Defcon 1]

That is horrendously wrong. Yes, it is higher than the F-16. But the MKIs maintenance costs for a twin engine aircraft is extremely low.

As a matter of fact this is what helped the Russians clinch the deal in Malaysia against SH. The SH came at 3x the lifecycle costs as the MKM. The Malaysians also figured that the newest SH 2006 model would still be 1.5-2x more than MKM. So, this gives you an idea on how cheap the MKI really is while the effectiveness is known to everybody. You can say the MKI is the best when it comes to cost vs capability in the market, even better than JF-17 or Gripen. The HAL made MKIs barely cost above $40Million to produce in India. A decade ago, it was $22-30 Million. The 2009 version of MKMs with South African EW systems came at $50Million. Even today, the MKM is competing in the Malaysian tender for $50Million.

What about the sources projecting MKI cost to be around 80-100 millions a piece?

 

[p2prada]

What about the sources projecting MKI cost to be around 80-100 millions a piece?

I haven't come across such a figure for the MKI's lifecycle costs.

 

[farhan_9909]

No it is not identical to MKI because the SMs configuration could very well be much more advanced. There is a chance the SMs are already equipped with the Bars AESA, if not the regular radar.

Also, there isn't a major difference between Russian and Indian MKI where foreign components are concerned. Indian MKI has Indian computers and EW equipment. The current jammer is Israeli. The only other major Israeli component would be the HUD and MFDs. Not a big deal there, the Russians have already shown to the world their latest gear in EW like the SAP-14 and SAP-518 jammers and their latest Su-35BM cockpit as well. So, they have no need of Israeli systems that we have on MKI.

As for French, the biggest French component on MKI is the Totem 3000. It is a GPS based INS system that is used for navigation. The Russians have GLONASS. Period. So, they don't need foreign systems.

The only reason why we have foreign systems is because back in late 90s and early 2000s the Russians did not have GPS systems or the latest cockpit designs like the French and Israelis did. You can say the Super MKI will replace all of this with Indian and Russian systems.



That is horrendously wrong. Yes, it is higher than the F-16. But the MKIs maintenance costs for a twin engine aircraft is extremely low.

As a matter of fact this is what helped the Russians clinch the deal in Malaysia against SH. The SH came at 3x the lifecycle costs as the MKM. The Malaysians also figured that the newest SH 2006 model would still be 1.5-2x more than MKM. So, this gives you an idea on how cheap the MKI really is while the effectiveness is known to everybody. You can say the MKI is the best when it comes to cost vs capability in the market, even better than JF-17 or Gripen. The HAL made MKIs barely cost above $40Million to produce in India. A decade ago, it was $22-30 Million. The 2009 version of MKMs with South African EW systems came at $50Million. Even today, the MKM is competing in the Malaysian tender for $50Million.

If the figures are taken true

Than i must admit that MKI is indeed the best fighter for its money

 

[Defcon 1]

I haven't come across such a figure for the MKI's lifecycle costs.

Aircraft deals with ‘friend’ Russia costing dear - India - DNA

Home-made Sukhois to cost more than ones bought from Russia : India, News - India Today

One of the above puts the cost at 102 million while the other at around 70 million. I am talking about super sukhois.

 

[p2prada]

Aircraft deals with �friend� Russia costing dear - India - DNA

Home-made Sukhois to cost more than ones bought from Russia : India, News - India Today

One of the above puts the cost at 102 million while the other at around 70 million. I am talking about super sukhois.

The first article is accurate in the details except for one major problem. The second article is messed up.

The first article correctly talks about 40 MKIs for $1.6Billion in 2007.

The second deal for 40 aircraft + 2 is incomplete. The $4.2Billion includes the cost of 71 Mi-26 helicopters and tools for MKI's assembly. I suppose the cost for the helicopters is around $1.3 Billion. So, the rest for the Super MKI and probably half a billion for new tools. I think the last 42 will be assembled in India using kits. The actual costs of the deal are sketchy I suppose.

 

[Defcon 1]

The first article is accurate in the details except for one major problem. The second article is messed up.

The first article correctly talks about 40 MKIs for $1.6Billion in 2007.

The second deal for 40 aircraft + 2 is incomplete. The $4.2Billion includes the cost of 71 Mi-26 helicopters and tools for MKI's assembly. I suppose the cost for the helicopters is around $1.3 Billion. So, the rest for the Super MKI and probably half a billion for new tools. I think the last 42 will be assembled in India using kits. The actual costs of the deal are sketchy I suppose.

What do you mean by new tools? Manufacturing tools? Why do we need to import them from Russia?

even if we accept that 1.3 billion dollars in the deal are for Mi26, still it leaves 2.9 billion for MKI which again translates in 70 million per plane.

 

[ice berg]

What do you mean by new tools? Manufacturing tools? Why do we need to import them from Russia?

even if we accept that 1.3 billion dollars in the deal are for Mi26, still it leaves 2.9 billion for MKI which again translates in 70 million per plane.

Not to mention that they are likely fly-away cost. How much does it cost with weapons?

And I have never heard that russian jets are cheaper than comparable us jets when it comes to lifecycle cost.

US jets lasts far longer than russian ones.

 

[p2prada]

What do you mean by new tools? Manufacturing tools? Why do we need to import them from Russia?

even if we accept that 1.3 billion dollars in the deal are for Mi26, still it leaves 2.9 billion for MKI which again translates in 70 million per plane.

That's how it works. We import the tools required to make the aircraft at home. Part of the industrial production clause.

Yeah. $70 Million seems about right for a Super MKI. But the $2.9 Billion would include tools which probably cost over $500 Million by itself. I would say the contract for the 42 aircraft may be around $50-55 Million each after reducing prices for tools.

We have tools for 190 aircraft. Not for 232. There will be many perishable items that the manufacturer would have sold so the client does not make more than it is contracted for, like China did.

Not to mention that they are likely fly-away cost. How much does it cost with weapons?

And I have never heard that russian jets are cheaper than comparable us jets when it comes to lifecycle cost.

US jets lasts far longer than russian ones.

That's not what the Malaysians found with the MKI and SH.

Anyway, Russian equipment has bad reputation mainly because most of their factories shut down after the split. Like many of the older Migs, ILs etc.

US jets indeed last longer. But one US engine that works for 6000 hours is more expensive than 2 Russian engines that work for 4000 hours.

A RD-33 Mk3 costs $1.5-2 Million to manufacture in India and gives 3000-4000 hours. The same engine probably costs around $1 Million for VVS. A F-414 costs anywhere between $3 Million (for USN) and $6 Million (India - LCA) and gives 6000 hours. Fat load of good that does. The RD-33 has always been very reliable since its inception. It may take a bit more to maintain the engine, but yeah right! A $6 Million engine vs a $2 Million engine. Wonder which is more expensive?

India agreed to a $600 Million contract for 99 engines vs a $250 Million contract for 120 RD-33 engines.

 

[farhan_9909]

 

[farhan_9909]

 

[farhan_9909]

JF-17 might participate in Paris Airshow This year

 

[farhan_9909]

Hiring for Yet another PAC plant at Nawabshah has been started.

*Upgraded Facility with new infra,even the fuselage will be manufactured at home
*Speeding JFT production for PAF and to meet the export demand as well(deal with sudan for 12-JFT seems likely after few years)
*JFT may also win against Rafale for Serbian aircraft as they want quality stuff,hence they might not choose made in france products
*assembly plant of helicopters as well


in turn this facility is way too bigger than older kamra PAC and might also have New infra/upgraded machinery

For JFT production Pakistan in 2006 imported french machinery this could be the reason why JFT even beat Gripen in finishing and quality

 

[SATISH]

The first article is accurate in the details except for one major problem. The second article is messed up.

The first article correctly talks about 40 MKIs for $1.6Billion in 2007.

The second deal for 40 aircraft + 2 is incomplete. The $4.2Billion includes the cost of 71 Mi-26 helicopters and tools for MKI's assembly. I suppose the cost for the helicopters is around $1.3 Billion. So, the rest for the Super MKI and probably half a billion for new tools. I think the last 42 will be assembled in India using kits. The actual costs of the deal are sketchy I suppose.

Mi 26? or the Mi 17?

 

[p2prada]

Mi 26? or the Mi 17?

Mi-17, my bad.

 

[Black Blood]

 

[Black Blood]

 

[farhan_9909]

Meanwhile H khan has confirmed that JFT will undergo Raa'd ALCM and H-2 SOW tests in AWC and later on integration

Psed picture of JFT carrying
2xRaa'd ALCM(Each upto 35-40kt)for nuclear strike
2xlt-2 LGB
2x SD-10A
2xPL5IIE

 

[farhan_9909]