JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 Xiaolong

[farhan_9909]

Are you really dumb read post no #1090 again!

SU-30 is in service with Russia.....MKI is more advanced version with French and Israeli avionics and what not! Can you claim that Junk Fighter is bbeter than what Chinese are using!! Ohhhhhh wait chinese don't use the Junk Fighter!

Arjun is far better than what Chinese has provided you in the form of AL-walid or whatever you call that chinese copy of T-55!

Junk Fighter is not in service with Chinese because it is so BAD/PATHETIC that even the copy cats would stick to better Russian A/Cs!

But indian logic is MKK of chinese airforce is useless and MKI despite being the most cheapest heavy class fighter(38millios) even cheaper than JF-17 block 1(40milions)....Russian air force don't have SU30(MKI variant)
sometime even indian consider MKI as su 35 equivalent..again indian logic

JFT fits PAF requirement.JFT can't be good for a big country like china.when they already have j-10 in hands..PLAAF requirement are different.and they see USAF as the only competitor,,russian air force don't stand a chance against them.

Arjun is a cheap export variant of leopard2a4 modified as per Indian army requirement..

124 arjun ordered in 2004 while delivered in 2011 or in 8 years. or 15 arjun per year

124 more ordered in 2012 and might get delivered in 2020

while we will have Al khalid 4 in action by than

I have compared JFT and LCA qualities..please check out the jft vs lca thread

 

[SilentKiller]

But indian logic is MKK of chinese airforce is useless and MKI despite being the most cheapest heavy class fighter(38millios) even cheaper than JF-17 block 1(40milions)....Russian air force don't have SU30(MKI variant)
sometime even indian consider MKI as su 35 equivalent..again indian logic

JFT fits PAF requirement.JFT can't be good for a big country like china.when they already have j-10 in hands..PLAAF requirement are different.and they see USAF as the only competitor,,russian air force don't stand a chance against them.

Arjun is a cheap export variant of leopard2a4 modified as per Indian army requirement..

124 arjun ordered in 2004 while delivered in 2011 or in 8 years. or 15 arjun per year

124 more ordered in 2012 and might get delivered in 2020

while we will have Al khalid 4 in action by than

I have compared JFT and LCA qualities..please check out the jft vs lca thread

First...Su 30 in russian inventory: Russian Air Force operates 11 Su-30 currently and has placed orders for 60 more. and 15 Su35 and another 48 on order...so u have the answer..Su30 MKI has western avionics so its better than rest...or if u believe in chinese one, its up to u..but believe it and accept it chinese are better in reverse engineering not in engines, avionics. an Iphone 5 is always better than copy chinese Iphone 5....

Correction cost of a Su30 MKI is $ 30 million and of Super Su30 will be $63 million with AESA.
If J-10 or J17's are so good why is china still investing in J-11 or Su30MKK? as J10 is in same class as SU 30...
China isn't buying J-17 as it is below its requirements...
If u say Russian have no chance against PLAAF, u r fool or highly ignorant..Still china buys all its engines from Russia, missile seekers and other avionics and u say it can take on Russians.. and all countries are ages away from US as a country with made F-22 in 90's and whole world has still not being able to make a production aircraft. Night hawk was made in 60's first stealth plane and world came to know about it in on 80's.

Arjun has features of both leopard and israel tanks as both nations are working as consultants....Arjun is best as it proved itself against t-90 and now everyone accept it Indian army and world...
Arjun MK1- 124 order and all will be upgraded to mk2 standards.
118 MK2 orders and they are expecting 300-400 more orders on even better variants.

LCA is better than F-17 in following ways..
1) weight LCA is lot lighter and so more agile than J17
2) Use of composite leads to lower Radar signature its basic of stealth. J17 none till date but is planned in future
3) Avionics..LCA-israel avionics and if u believe Chinese avionics is better then its ok for u to be happy in your dreams.
4) RD-93 is same engine as Mig-29 old variants so J-17 has Weight to thrust ratio of 0.91 and its bad engine as it produces a lot of smoke and does fails at time. While LCA has Weight to thrust ratio of 1.01 and engine F404-GE-IN20 turbofan used in f-18 and saab gripen.
5) Wing Area should be high to have better angle of attack (sorry if u don't know such important facts).
6) only function and good BVR in chinese inventory is R-77 and 73 and they use it on there frontile fighter which is not J10 baby but J11 and Su30MKK...and all this is russian tech...
7) Now why PAF opted for an incomplete aircraft as the F-7' s and mirage were getting problematic and no western seller was ready to give its advanced fighters and even chinese refused J-10 what will pak get a monkey model of J-10...try finding what soviets and chinese supplied to some nation and u will know waht's monkey model. So pak had to maintain its numbers so it though let buy what we can and they bought J-17's....

Latest from on J17 - "China's main export fighter is the Chengdu-Pakistan Aeronautical Complex JF-17 Thunder. An inexpensive, single-engined fighter, the JF-17 has yet to win sales outside Pakistan. This despite reassurances from China aerospace export company CATIC and Pakistani officials over the years that many countries are interested in the type.
Were China to offer an advanced, low observable type for export, it would likely be a compete with the Sukhoi T-50 on the international market, although China has yet to produce a reliable fighter engine"

 

[Defcon 1]

But indian logic is MKK of chinese airforce is useless and MKI despite being the most cheapest heavy class fighter(38millios) even cheaper than JF-17 block 1(40milions)....Russian air force don't have SU30(MKI variant)
sometime even indian consider MKI as su 35 equivalent..again indian logic

JFT fits PAF requirement.JFT can't be good for a big country like china.when they already have j-10 in hands..PLAAF requirement are different.and they see USAF as the only competitor,,russian air force don't stand a chance against them.

Arjun is a cheap export variant of leopard2a4 modified as per Indian army requirement..

124 arjun ordered in 2004 while delivered in 2011 or in 8 years. or 15 arjun per year

124 more ordered in 2012 and might get delivered in 2020

while we will have Al khalid 4 in action by than

I have compared JFT and LCA qualities..please check out the jft vs lca thread

Aircraft deals with �friend� Russia costing dear - India - DNA

You will find that cost of last 42 MKIs was 102 million dollars each. The problem is that stupid people like you read something somewhere and then generalize it completely. The initial cost of MKI might have been estimated at 40 million a piece but the actual cost was much more. Not to mention increased cost due to inflation. The original contract for MKI and MKK were signed in the 1990s. But JF17 contract is relatively new, and hence at 40 million a piece, it is very difficult to make a good plane. Even pakistanis admit that the combat capability of JF17 was deemed secondary while development.

About your comparisons, the problem is again you refuse to accept anything other than what has been told to you. I have bombarded you information in past few days, but you have discarded it all and you keep on believing what you want to believe.

 

[Apollyon]

The initial cost might have been estimated at 40 million a piece but the actual cost was much more. Not to mention increased cost due to inflation. The original contract for MKI and MKK were signed in the 1990s. But JF17 contract is relatively new, and hence at 40 million a piece, it is very difficult to make a good plane. Even pakistanis admit that the combat capability of JF17 was deemed secondary while development.

Who told you FC-1's fly-away cost is $40 million ?
Even J-10's cost much less, this is a pure hog wash.

 

[Defcon 1]

Who told you FC-1's fly-away cost is $40 million ?
Even J-10's cost much less, this is a pure hog wash.

No-one knows the actual figures, I am just repeating the general claims.

 

[SilentKiller]

No-one knows the actual figures, I am just repeating the general claims.

well that's chinese J-10 we will never know its real cost untill pak gets one and come to forums to boost about it

 

[Anoop Sajwan]

MKI is nt in service with russia
in
Arjun being a cheap export variant of leopard2a4 modified as per indian requirement was considered as the worst designed tank

JFTis not in service because of its limited range while pakistan is smaller and it suite us.

Russian air force gave the order of about 30 MKI standard last year even in this economic crisis.
While PLAAF introducing 100s of plane but never give the order of JK.

 

[p2prada]

Russian air force don't have SU30(MKI variant)
sometime even indian consider MKI as su 35 equivalent..again indian logic

Russia ordered 60 MKIs for their air force. It is called Su-30SM. They ordered 30 in March 2012. The Russian air force was so happy with it that they placed repeat orders in December 2012 for another 30 aircraft.

Russian MoD Doubles Su-30SM Order | Aviation International News

Comparatively they have ordered only 48 Su-35BMs.

The Super Sukhoi will most probably be superior to the Su-35BM.

 

[DivineHeretic]

Russia ordered 60 MKIs for their air force. It is called Su-30SM. They ordered 30 in March 2012. The Russian air force was so happy with it that they placed repeat orders in December 2012 for another 30 aircraft.

Russian MoD Doubles Su-30SM Order | Aviation International News

Comparatively they have ordered only 48 Su-35BMs.

The Super Sukhoi will most probably be superior to the Su-35BM.

The SU3BM is undoubtedly a better aircraft in so far as RCS is concerned, but the avionics of the super SU30mki and the 35BM would be fairly closely matched. The lack of access to western avionics will indeed hurt the BM, and with the IAF willing to spend over $100 million a pop for the mki, alongwith the integration of ingenious mission computers and western avionics, its future is secured. The 35BM will have to be significantly better than the mki to justify its inclusion in large numbers in Russian AF.

 

[p2prada]

The SU3BM is undoubtedly a better aircraft in so far as RCS is concerned,

Compared to the MKI, yes. Compare to the 42 Super MKIs, most probably no.

I am not talking about the Super MKI MLU for 50 aircraft.

but the avionics of the super SU30mki and the 35BM would be fairly closely matched.

Super MKI will have AESA.

The lack of access to western avionics will indeed hurt the BM,

They do have access to French and Italian systems. However they are not needed anymore. The Russian systems are more than adequate.

For eg: What will MKI or Su-35BM do with a French GPS based Totem 3000 INS when both India and Russia have access to military grade GLONASS system with superior characteristics to GPS?

This argument was valid 10 years ago. Now it counts for nothing.

and with the IAF willing to spend over $100 million a pop for the mki, alongwith the integration of ingenious mission computers and western avionics, its future is secured. The 35BM will have to be significantly better than the mki to justify its inclusion in large numbers in Russian AF.

The MKI will have a combination of Russian and Indian systems for the upgrade. Not western. Even the internal EW kit will be a DARE made AESA system.

I doubt there will be anything western in the MKI. Even the cockpit is a Russian-Indian mix.

Of course, quite a bit of this evolved from JVs with French and Israeli companies over the last decade.

 

[farhan_9909]

Aircraft deals with �friend� Russia costing dear - India - DNA

You will find that cost of last 42 MKIs was 102 million dollars each. The problem is that stupid people like you read something somewhere and then generalize it completely. The initial cost of MKI might have been estimated at 40 million a piece but the actual cost was much more. Not to mention increased cost due to inflation. The original contract for MKI and MKK were signed in the 1990s. But JF17 contract is relatively new, and hence at 40 million a piece, it is very difficult to make a good plane. Even pakistanis admit that the combat capability of JF17 was deemed secondary while development.

About your comparisons, the problem is again you refuse to accept anything other than what has been told to you. I have bombarded you information in past few days, but you have discarded it all and you keep on believing what you want to believe.

this is from the recent deal signed for 42..each cost around 38millions

Putin and Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh hailed cooperation between their countries as officials signed deals that included the Russian delivery of 71 MI-17 V-5 military helicopters worth $ 1.3 billion as well as technological kits worth $ 1.6 billion to assemble 42 Sukhoi SU-30MKI fighter jets.

Russia, India sign weapons deals | ArabNews

But again cheap doesnt mean less capable as well..because western weapons are usually over priced

well you have to prove me wrong.otherwise how do you want me to agree with you?

Per unit price of JFT is 30millions(Block 1) but weapons and support surge the price upto 40millions

the 40millons figure of JFT for PAF is directly by H khan

The price of CM-400akg is 2millions each(Yj-12 1.8millions from whom cm-400akg is developed)

 

[farhan_9909]

well that's chinese J-10 we will never know its real cost untill pak gets one and come to forums to boost about it

For pak FC-20 in 2009 was rumoured to cost 53millions each

The time when PAF had offered upto 65millions for Rafale each..Because of PAF love with Rafale

 

[farhan_9909]

Russia ordered 60 MKIs for their air force. It is called Su-30SM. They ordered 30 in March 2012. The Russian air force was so happy with it that they placed repeat orders in December 2012 for another 30 aircraft.

Russian MoD Doubles Su-30SM Order | Aviation International News

Comparatively they have ordered only 48 Su-35BMs.

The Super Sukhoi will most probably be superior to the Su-35BM.

So the russian MKI will have israel/french avionics?

it might not be identicle to indian Su30mki

 

[Defcon 1]

this is from the recent deal signed for 42..each cost around 38millions



Russia, India sign weapons deals | ArabNews

But again cheap doesnt mean less capable as well..because western weapons are usually over priced

well you have to prove me wrong.otherwise how do you want me to agree with you?

Per unit price of JFT is 30millions(Block 1) but weapons and support surge the price upto 40millions

the 40millons figure of JFT for PAF is directly by H khan

The price of CM-400akg is 2millions each(Yj-12 1.8millions from whom cm-400akg is developed)

That was an impossible figure. The actual figure was over 3 billions as you will see in the link below. Put simply, it is impossible to buy a heavy weight fighter with 21st century avionics and AESA radar for 38 million.

India Ordering, Modernizing SU-30MKIs

About proving you wrong, every sane person would have believed at that point that there is no current point to replace F7PG with JF17 currently, there were no sources. But you would continue to believe what you want to, quoting from a blog in which I had already shown you the mistake. But nevertheless, you chose to go with what you believe because it is more convenient.

 

[farhan_9909]

That was an impossible figure. The actual figure was over 3 billions as you will see in the link below. Put simply, it is impossible to buy a heavy weight fighter with 21st century avionics and AESA radar for 38 million.

India Ordering, Modernizing SU-30MKIs

do you really want me to support my claim with some close to dozens links?

 

[farhan_9909]

India, Russia Sign $3 Billion Defense Deals

India, Russia sign defence deals during Putin's visit

The Hindu : Today's Paper / IN SCHOOL : India, Russia sign defence deals worth around $3 billion

India, Russia sign new weapons deals - Yahoo! News Maktoob

India, Russia ink defence deal worth Rs 25k cr

India, Russia sign defence deals worth Rs 25,000 crore - Times Of India

India, Russia ink defence deal worth Rs 25k cr

but 52millions each

 

[SilentKiller]

So the russian MKI will have israel/french avionics?

it might not be identicle to indian Su30mki

Russian 30's have russian avionics!!

 

[Apollyon]

do you really want me to support my claim with some close to dozens links?

but 52millions each

Are you brain dead, Paki ?
This deal is with "Russia" not with Thales or IAI or any other Indian Defence entreprise, HAL will be the system integrator.
Just like F-35's cost is $65 million but it zooms to ~$150 million when you consider Avionics and other things integrated by DoD.

 

[SilentKiller]

do you really want me to support my claim with some close to dozens links?

No, sorry as the planes will be built in india, its cost will be low, the Su30 MKI costs $30 million and super Su30MKI will cost $40 million - $60 million...depending how their production and TOT goes through....more we build lesser the cost for eg if more similar AESA are made their overall cost will drop....

 

[Apollyon]

No-one knows the actual figures, I am just repeating the general claims.

If you go by the General claims then JF-17 cost ~$18 million not 40.