JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 Xiaolong

[fulcrum]

True true true but Pakistan can sell its Junk fighter to any country coz it has the OEM license unlike Bison

So how many dollars is pakistan planning to get? Not a single deal has been signed and all the production is taken up by the PAF. The realistic date for surplus exports will be only around 2016. But then this fighter will become obsolete! It will be the f-20 saga all over again.

 

[musalman]

^ I doubt they would integrate Aesa now. Most probably it'll be for their block-3s.

They could have upgraded their F-7s like our bisons and could have gone for J-10s with ToT. It would be the most financially and technologically wise decision. There is little rationale behind their JF-17 actions. All the money for JF-17s could have been well spent on upgrading F-7s and J-10 if you ask me. Strange pakistani logic!. Also the same can be said for their AEW procurement. 2 different and incompatible systems is never heard of. When you can't share information via datalinks, what good is an awacs. Even their Air chief said the same and added that "we could have been better off with either a chinese or swedish dea but not both".

Well in JF17 we are learning from scrath. In TOT China can cancel the TOT license but in case of JF it can not

Same can be said for the F-7s if they had upgraded it like our Bisons. It would have had the same(or only slightly lower) threat potential.

JF17 airframe is alot better than F7

 

[musalman]

So how many dollars is pakistan planning to get? Not a single deal has been signed and all the production is taken up by the PAF. The realistic date for surplus exports will be only around 2016. But then this fighter will become obsolete! It will be the f-20 saga all over again.

Well countries are still buying F7

 

[Singh]

Singhji,
Has the Vixen been offered and is any kind of deal signed for it? Yes the Pakistanis are moving further from US and towards China. But their top brass still suggests American and Western weapons when compared to Chinese weapons as they are more advanced and reliable compared to the Chinese. And is Selex ready to integrate the Chinese missiles to their Radar? Will the UK and EU governments allow it?

I don't have concrete details Satishji so take it with a pinch of salt.

There is no doubt that the Western weapons are better but Pakistanis can't and don't want to get their hands on western weapons for a variety of reasons.
Next logical choice is of course China. It gives them tech, it gives them soft loans, and no threat of sanctions.

Why would EU refuse to sell them radars ? EU nations are already selling them a variety of products.

No actually as compare to US China is more willing regarding tech transfer. No matter how good US fighters are USA is not reliable, Chinese are reliable in times of war etc. We can have fancy airforce with US help but we can grow with Chinese.

1. what will pak do with the tech ? unless there are plans to build a fully home grown 4.5 - 5th gen fighter ?
2. No one is reliable during times of war, China never came to Pak's aid in any of the wars.
3. Does bringing 1000 knives to a gun fight help ? When your enemy is fielding both numbers and quality, you have too match him in quality not in numbers, right ?

JF17 can be termed as F16 A/B block 25/30 compatible just like IBM compatible which can upgraded. However branded F16 is good for nothing just like branded IBM PC.
For 3rd world JF17 will start an era of unbranded up gradable IBM compatiable aircraft. IBM sold its business but compatible did wonders Dell / Acer etc etc

Yaar c'mon no analogies with desktop PCs
You can't upgrade aircrafts like you can upgrade your PC.

 

[musalman]

BTW had JF17 been a junk India would have never tried to stop sale of RD93 engine to Pakistan

 

[musalman]

I don't have concrete details Satishji so take it with a pinch of salt.

There is no doubt that the Western weapons are better but Pakistanis can't and don't want to get their hands on western weapons for a variety of reasons.
Next logical choice is of course China. It gives them tech, it gives them soft loans, and no threat of sanctions.

Why would EU refuse to sell them radars ? EU nations are already selling them a variety of products.

1. what will pak do with the tech ? unless there are plans to build a fully home grown 4.5 - 5th gen fighter ?
2. No one is reliable during times of war, China never came to Pak's aid in any of the wars.
3. Does bringing 1000 knives to a gun fight help ? When your enemy is fielding both numbers and quality, you have too match him in quality not in numbers, right ?

Same thing we did with the nukes and missile.

Yaar c'mon no analogies with desktop PCs
You can't upgrade aircrafts like you can upgrade your PC.

This is what i have heard and i think its not a bad idea. U want a better radar install a AESA

 

[Singh]

^ I doubt they would integrate Aesa now. Most probably it'll be for their block-3s.

This would depend on the radar manufacturer.

They could have upgraded their F-7s like our bisons and could have gone for J-10s with ToT. It would be the most financially and technologically wise decision. There is little rationale behind their JF-17 actions. All the money for JF-17s could have been well spent on upgrading F-7s and J-10 if you ask me. Strange pakistani logic!. Also the same can be said for their AEW procurement. 2 different and incompatible systems is never heard of. When you can't share information via datalinks, what good is an awacs. Even their Air chief said the same and added that "we could have been better off with either a chinese or swedish dea but not both".
Same can be said for the F-7s if they had upgraded it like our Bisons. It would have had the same(or only slightly lower) threat potential.

F7 and 21 have reached their service life limit. They can't be kept flying forever. Technology has advanced, gone are the days of dogfights.

So how many dollars is pakistan planning to get? Not a single deal has been signed and all the production is taken up by the PAF. The realistic date for surplus exports will be only around 2016. But then this fighter will become obsolete! It will be the f-20 saga all over again.

China will be able to roll an additional production line, and PAF wouldn't mind a delay if it gets concrete orders.

Well in JF17 we are learning from scrath. In TOT China can cancel the TOT license but in case of JF it can not
JF17 airframe is alot better than F7

What will Pak do with the ToT ? And does JF17's capability matches its adversary's capabilities ?

True true true but Pakistan can sell its Junk fighter to any country coz it has the OEM license unlike Bison
I don't see any war between India Pakistan in near future but i see wars in Africa Middle east and other other countries.

I see meddling by foreign powers in any war henceforth.

 

[Singh]

BTW had JF17 been a junk India would have never tried to stop sale of RD93 engine to Pakistan

Think of this way : If India wouldn't have protested Pak would've never bought this engine. In any case if this was a very "serious" threat, India would've done more, don't you think so ?

Same thing we did with the nukes and missile.

What has Pak done with the nukes and missiles ? It has not developed anything on its own if the experts are to be believed.

This is what i have heard and i think its not a bad idea. U want a better radar install a AESA

Shahji its not so easy to install radars Ask Vladimir.

 

[p2prada]

@Musalman

PAF does not have tankers. The 2 tankers that came to PAF were only leased for a short duration. They were sent back to Ukraine after the lease expired.

 

[Vladimir79]

1. JF17 will field Vixen 1000 AESA radar.

Sure it will, that radar will cost more than the entire plane.

I might have given it a second thought to the statement if you said J-10, but JF-17 is just a laugh. Vixen will weigh at least an extra 100kg compared to Grifo S7 decreasing an already weak payload. The power requirements of a 1000T/R module X-band AESA will not be met by JF-17, especially when they are increasing Gripen's current PP by 40%. You might stick Vixen 500E on it, but that is just an underperforming AJT radar.

2. Acquisition of JF17 and FC20 is a clear move by Pak to establish itself under China's tutelage and away from the fickle US influence.

Sure, and it is also an attempt to claim they have a domestic aviation industry which they would never get on their own.

 

[fulcrum]

Well in JF17 we are learning from scrath. In TOT China can cancel the TOT license but in case of JF it can not

JF17 airframe is alot better than F7

It's top speed is less than a F-7. So it can't intercept well unless the enemy is coming towards you. All the indian fighters have speeds more than the thunder!! It's Thrust to weight is only marginally better. Wing loading is the same. And you can probably get 1.5 or 2 F-7's for the price of a JF-17. The only advantage is reduced RCS and a bigger nose for a better radar. But with awacs, this point can be sidelined. JF-17 is better than F-7, but not better in terms of bang for the buck. You could have upgraded the F-7's with datalinks to awacs and probably get a good interception with it's higher speed and used the rest of the money to get J-10s.

And china is your friend right? Why would they cancel ToT and assistance? If India thinks like you then we shouldn't trust russia at all, and around 80% of our hardware is russian.

F7 and 21 have reached their service life limit. They can't be kept flying forever. Technology has advanced, gone are the days of dogfights.

Nope.. Their F-7s are new which were bought during the standoff 7 years back.

And yup, that's precisely the reason why I said F-7s are favorable. JF-17's superior dogfighting capabilities when compared to the F-7 becomes moot in the larger picture.

China will be able to roll an additional production line, and PAF wouldn't mind a delay if it gets concrete orders.

No way! Already they are heavily falling behind the IAF. No way any sane country would sacrifice their defence for a few million dollars.

 

[SATISH]

Why would EU refuse to sell them radars ? EU nations are already selling them a variety of products.

Singhji,
The EU nations along with US wouldnt want their technology to fall in the hands of China. Which is one of the biggest concerns.

The cost of JF 17 with Vixen radar will cost the Pakistanis more. This will also lead to huge cost escalations. And can anyone tell me does the ToT include transfer of production of radars and the avionics? Or is it just the airframe? The other major component which JF 17 lacks is the Engine tech. I think the ToT is only for the airframe and the systems that can be developed easily and out in the open market. It gives Pakistanis to establish their baby steps in aviation production and industrial infrastructure.

 

[p2prada]

Singhji,
The EU nations along with US wouldnt want their technology to fall in the hands of China. Which is one of the biggest concerns.

The cost of JF 17 with Vixen radar will cost the Pakistanis more. This will also lead to huge cost escalations. And can anyone tell me does the ToT include transfer of production of radars and the avionics? Or is it just the airframe? The other major component which JF 17 lacks is the Engine tech. I think the ToT is only for the airframe and the systems that can be developed easily and out in the open market. It gives Pakistanis to establish their baby steps in aviation production and industrial infrastructure.

There will be no ToT in radars and engines. China itself does not have ToT on the RD-93. The Chinese radar meant for the JF-17 sucks, who will want ToT on that. Rather push for ToT from some European country that is willing, even that is unlikely.

There will be ToT on the airframe since it is an obsolete design and Pak paid half of the development costs.

 

[ajtr]

its better to have something in air ready to fight than waiting for 25 damn years for a perfect plane or 12 damn years of MMRCA which only get into force by 2015 unless some other scandal rocks the contract and deal is again canceled like in artillery case.If not scramble for equipment purchase like kargil.Well PSU's and amry are worst offenders of wasting public money in india.

 

[musalman]

It's top speed is less than a F-7. So it can't intercept well unless the enemy is coming towards you. All the indian fighters have speeds more than the thunder!! It's Thrust to weight is only marginally better. Wing loading is the same. And you can probably get 1.5 or 2 F-7's for the price of a JF-17. The only advantage is reduced RCS and a bigger nose for a better radar. But with awacs, this point can be sidelined. JF-17 is better than F-7, but not better in terms of bang for the buck. You could have upgraded the F-7's with datalinks to awacs and probably get a good interception with it's higher speed and used the rest of the money to get J-10s.

And china is your friend right? Why would they cancel ToT and assistance? If India thinks like you then we shouldn't trust russia at all, and around 80% of our hardware is russian.


No way! Already they are heavily falling behind the IAF. No way any sane country would sacrifice their defence for a few million dollars.

Remember Hindi Chini Bhai Bhai !!!! Things change in political front

 

[fulcrum]

Remember Hindi Chini Bhai Bhai !!!! Things change in political front

That was a superficial quote, a demagoguery to grab attention. It's similar to the crap you often hear from political speeches.
Also, by your logic India is doomed since almost all our hardware is Russian.

I think the trauma of U.S sanctions is still haunting the pakistani souls. lol That's what you get when you make deals with the devil. Don't worry, not all nations are like the U.S.

 

[musalman]

That was a superficial quote, a demagoguery to grab attention. It's similar to the crap you often hear from political speeches.
Also, by your logic India is doomed since almost all our hardware is Russian.

where did i say that?

I think the trauma of U.S sanctions is still haunting the pakistani souls. lol That's what you get when you make deals with the devil. Don't worry, not all nations are like the U.S.

I won;t call it a trauma but it cost us alot. I agree with u not all countries are like US

 

[fulcrum]

where did i say that?

No you didn't. But according to your logic, a country which provides you with Defence hardware with a good track record isn't reliable. The U.S was a lost cause from the get go. They backstabbed you during the 1965 & 1971 war and yet you guys went and bought F-16. Pakistan seriously needs to be a good judge of country's characters.. equating China with U.S.. that's ridiculous!

 

[johnee]

No you didn't. But according to your logic, a country which provides you with Defence hardware with a good track record isn't reliable. The U.S was a lost cause from the get go. They backstabbed you during the 1965 & 1971 war and yet you guys went and bought F-16. Pakistan seriously needs to be a good judge of country's characters.. equating China with U.S.. that's ridiculous!

Pakistan is not stupid. Most of the money that Pakistan uses to buy the weapons from US are donated by US itself. If anything, yankees are the suckers in this relationship.

 

[fulcrum]

Pakistan is not stupid. Most of the money that Pakistan uses to buy the weapons from US are donated by US itself. If anything, yankees are the suckers in this relationship.

Yeah, that is true. However in my previous post I was talking about the first F-16 procurement. The U.S imposed sanctions on them after the 65 war but still they went and fell into the F-16 trap. I think that was payed by pakistan since everyone knows about how F-16s became soyabeans. They should have gotten some J-8 or something from China since China and Soviets were at each other throats at that time.