JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 Xiaolong

[agentperry]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

pakistan is getting a fighter to replace its fleet of f7 a5 and mirage3/5.. they can upgrade it later on to some higher standards. but they are getting a new plane. they could have opted for upgrading the existing fleet but their airframes are too old to be trusted upon so its better for them to have a new plane not only to save their pilots that is real assets but also to have new and more trustworthy planes. one can also say this boosts the morale of the force after all driving a new car is always better than driving an old car.
it is obsolete or not? one can only tell it is relative manner- on comparing it with current indian force workhorse ie mig-21 its comparable (almost if we see net effect) but in future when india will be having su-30 mki as its main fighter jet its useless even with many upgrades because its simply not in that category and thus it has to fall behind.

 

[p2prada]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

KLJ-7/10 Fire Control Radar (FCR) (China) - Jane's Avionics

Better link for the KLJ-10.

pakistan is getting a fighter to replace its fleet of f7 a5 and mirage3/5.. they can upgrade it later on to some higher standards. but they are getting a new plane. they could have opted for upgrading the existing fleet but their airframes are too old to be trusted upon so its better for them to have a new plane not only to save their pilots that is real assets but also to have new and more trustworthy planes. one can also say this boosts the morale of the force after all driving a new car is always better than driving an old car.
it is obsolete or not? one can only tell it is relative manner- on comparing it with current indian force workhorse ie mig-21 its comparable (almost if we see net effect) but in future when india will be having su-30 mki as its main fighter jet its useless even with many upgrades because its simply not in that category and thus it has to fall behind.

JF-17 was always a low cost option to replace their Mirage-IIIs(strike). While PAF chose to replace their Mirages first, India chose to replace the Mig-21 first(point defence/interception). Therefore a difference in the type of buys both countries are making. IAF is focusing on MKIs for immediate Mig-21 replacements while PAF is focusing on JF-17 for Mirage-III replacements.

Eventually IAF will finish up with MKIs and Mig-21s and then focus on replacements for Mig-27s for which we are going to sign a contract for Rafales. PAF will go for J-10s to replace their old F-7s(Mig-21 clones) during the timeframe.

At the same time IAF is upgrading Mig-29s, Mirage-2000s and Jaguars to newer standards while PAF is upgrading F-16s to Block 40 standards. So, while IAF is replacing obsolete aircraft with aircraft that are many times more capable than the ones they are replacing, PAF is only replacing older aircraft with aircraft with slightly better performance.

In terms of planning IAF is inducting more numbers and better quality with plans for two fifth gen aircraft. Comparatively PAF has no such plans.

 

[balai_c]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

Let us do a comparative study between contemporary aircrafts of Indian and Pakistani air forces with data available from Wikipedia for a understanding of the reality facing Pakistanis today.

Su-30 mki:

Type: Heavy type air dominance/air superiority fighter. Derivative of the legendary Su-27 series of fighters, recipient of countless upgrades, including a great Bars No11 Pesa radar, great jammers, an Indian developed mission computer, thrust vector capable engines.

Performance Chart:

Maximum speed: Mach 1.9\ (2,500 km/h, 1,553 mph) at altitude; 1,350 km/h, 839 mph near ground level
Range: 3,000 km (1,620 nmi) at altitude; (1,270 km, 690 nmi near ground level; with no external fuel tanks)
Endurance: 3.75 hrs (up to 10 hrs with in-flight refueling)
Service ceiling: 17,300 m (56,800 ft)
Rate of climb: >300 m/s (>45,275 ft/min)
Wing loading: 401 kg/m² (82.3 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 1.
Source: Wikipedia. Sukhoi Su-30MKI

This is typical top end /bleeding edge fighter in any country's inventory of fighters. This is a sort of fighter jets that exist in limited quantities to augment the edge of any respectable air force.Now, due to India's unique set of circumstances, this bleeding edge fighter is the workhorse of IAF. Now let us take at the payload capacity of Su-30 mki:

Empty weight: 18,400 kg[68] (40,565 lb)
Max. takeoff weight: 38,800 kg (85,600 lb).

So, we have a payload about of about 20 tonnes, with full load out.

Now let us take a look at the Pakistani side:Jf-17 thunder:

Empty weight: 6,586 kg (14,520 lb)
Useful load: 3000 kg (6600 lb)
Max. takeoff weight: 12,383 kg (27,300 lb)

Maximum speed: Mach 1.6
Combat radius: 1,352 km[24] (840 mi)
Ferry range: 3,482 km (1,880 NM)

Source: PAC_JF-17_Thunder


Now let us take at the Indian counterpart of the JF-17, LCA:


Empty weight: 6,560 kg (14,460 lb)
Loaded weight: 9,500 kg (20,944 lb)
Max. takeoff weight: 13,300 kg (29,100 lb)


Maximum speed: Mach 1.8[82][86] (1,920 km/h, 1,195 mph) at high altitude
Range: 850 km[82] (530 mi) without refueling
Ferry range: 3,000 km[86] (1,840 mi)

Source: HAL Tejas


Now, a cursory look at the assorted statistics posted above reveals a compelling picture: India's workhorse is a leading edge fighter,while it is developing a low end workhorse, at it's own labour, a equivalent of the role played by the venerable Mikoyan mig 21. While Pakistan's leading edge fighter, the much touted JF-17, falls within the boundary of the point defense fighters, that India is actually downplaying. This, apart from the ominous fact that the heavy, air superiority type Su-30 is about 142, more than the entire f-16 fleet, and about to reach 272. Tejas is supposed to the number filler. So the gap between the air forces are increasing day by day.

 

[agentperry]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

KLJ-7/10 Fire Control Radar (FCR) (China) - Jane's Avionics

Better link for the KLJ-10.



JF-17 was always a low cost option to replace their Mirage-IIIs(strike). While PAF chose to replace their Mirages first, India chose to replace the Mig-21 first(point defence/interception). Therefore a difference in the type of buys both countries are making. IAF is focusing on MKIs for immediate Mig-21 replacements while PAF is focusing on JF-17 for Mirage-III replacements.

Eventually IAF will finish up with MKIs and Mig-21s and then focus on replacements for Mig-27s for which we are going to sign a contract for Rafales. PAF will go for J-10s to replace their old F-7s(Mig-21 clones) during the timeframe.

At the same time IAF is upgrading Mig-29s, Mirage-2000s and Jaguars to newer standards while PAF is upgrading F-16s to Block 40 standards. So, while IAF is replacing obsolete aircraft with aircraft that are many times more capable than the ones they are replacing, PAF is only replacing older aircraft with aircraft with slightly better performance.

In terms of planning IAF is inducting more numbers and better quality with plans for two fifth gen aircraft. Comparatively PAF has no such plans.

well paf is replacing a5 then f7 and mirage3/5 with jf17. on paf special request they are having jf17 as a multirole plane. we all know its roots lies in super 7 program where f7 was to be upgraded. regarding j10 and f16s. yes they will be top end planes in paf inventory.

and one suggestion- dont count your chickens before they hatch- 5 gen planes are distant reality let this distance be shortened firs then one can think of it. remember even existing planes like typhoon and rafale took a decade to be selected and not inducted these planes might take a lot of time before we see them in iaf colors

 

[p2prada]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

Well. I was talking about planning, not that we are already getting them 5th gens.

There are 150 Mirages and 120 J-7s to be replaced. Yeah. I completely missed that.

 

[Armand2REP]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

KLJ-7 Radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jane is respectable publication.........

Jane's got it right because the producer themselves don't claim any better performance. 75km is still sufficient range to engage BVRAAMs and a serious threat to CAS aircraft. It isn't really a threat to modern fighters but Pakistan can't afford them.

 

[roma]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

with Pakistan's conventional resources falling further and further behind india's , it leaves them little choice but to rely all the more on their nuke missiles - and therefore raises the possibility of their hitting the nuke buttons !

 

[lcatejas]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

Beggars cant be choosers

 

[p2prada]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

Beggars cant be choosers

No need to turn this into a troll thread.

 

[sayareakd]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

what is the RCS of JF 17 ??

 

[p2prada]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

what is the RCS of JF 17 ??

I heard it is a bit lower than the F-16 Block 15/20. Not sure how that stacks up to the Block 52, but definitely bigger than LCA.

 

[arkem8]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

You guys can apply the same "obsolete and cheap" tag to the Al-Kabab tank of theirs. The Saudis were supposed to buy them, after evaluating it against the export version T-90(yes! the Bishma) the Saudis went and bought the T-90 LOL!

Same thing happened with the Peruvians...hehe!!

 

[p2prada]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

Saudis opted for Leopards, not T-90s.

 

[Armand2REP]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

Actually Saudis are going for Leo2s.

 

[arya]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

the main thing is numbers and we are lacking in numbers

 

[arkem8]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

Ah Okay.. my bad, the Peruvians still are interested in the T-90 aren't they??

About a decade back the Pakis were braying loudly from their rooftops how that MBT-2000 would beat the pants off M1's, Leo's and Challengers.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

About a decade back the Pakis were braying loudly from their rooftops how that MBT-2000 would beat the pants off M1's, Leo's and Challengers.

MBT-2000 , AL-Khalid, type-96 is a deign disaster, they are nothing more than mutant version of Russian tanks..

 

[laltaputu]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

 

[Armand2REP]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

Ah Okay.. my bad, the Peruvians still are interested in the T-90 aren't they??

About a decade back the Pakis were braying loudly from their rooftops how that MBT-2000 would beat the pants off M1's, Leo's and Challengers.

Peru initially picked the Norinco tank with a very generous loan offer from the Chinese. The deal fell through when Ukraine objected to not being part of the negotiation team since they are a partner in MBT-2000. That is the problem for Chini/Pak exports... they have foreign components and get bytch slapped every-time they want to sell.

 

[LurkerBaba]

I'm surprised we didn't have a dedicated thread on this earlier. Merged