JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 Xiaolong

LETHALFORCE

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Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

What are you talking about?????

Read slowly buddy, we are talking about JF17 cost.

JF17 does not have AESA radar. Hence, it is useless to talk about AESA radar.

JF17 has klj7 radar.

Its similar version klj10 is installed on J10

Both klj7 & klj10 were developed and mass produced in china.

Hence, they did not develop the JF17 radar from scratch.

Hence it is possible that its cost may be low.

Is it clear now?????


KLJ-7/10 Fire Control Radar (FCR) (China) - Jane's Avionics

KLJ-7/10 Fire Control Radar (FCR) (China), Airborne radar systems


The KLJ-7 Fire Control Radar (FCR), also referred to as Type 1478, employs a mechanically-scanned, phased-array antenna and is the main radar set for the Chengdu Aircraft Industries/Pakistan Aeronautical Complex FC-1/JF-17 fighter aircraft. A derivative of the KLJ-7, and likely employing a larger diameter array, the KLJ-10/J-10A, is believed to have been installed in the Chengdu J-10 fighter aircraft.In terms of development, the J-7 is reportedly similar in basic design to Phazotron N010 Zhuk family of radars; both Phazotron NIIR and rival radar house NIIP have worked closely in the past with Chinese radar design bureaux and provided technical assistance as well as operational models of Russia-made radar sets that were used as benchmarks in the process of Chinese firms developing their own designs. Nanjing have also reportedly drawn on the Galileo Avionica/Finmeccanica Grifo and the Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) Elta-2032 in developing their own radar designs. While the basic configuration of the J-7 may be similar to that of the Zhuk family, Nanjing utilises Chinese-made electronic components, multi-layered circuit boards, etc.The J-7 has multiple modes, both Beyond Visual Range (BVR) and close-in air-to-air modes, ground surveillance and a robust anti-jamming capability, according to Chinese sources. The radar can reportedly manage up to 40 targets, monitor up to 10 of them in Track-While-Scan (TWS) mode and can engage two targets simultaneously at BVR. The detection range for targets with an radar-cross section of up to 3 square metres is 75 km look-up, or 35 km in look-down mode.

I don't want to go off tangent but i will agree Chinese developed(from Russia Zhuk) their own radar something India has not done. But it is not an AESA radar and most reports say it is comprable to western planes from 1980-1990's. Pakistan has refused the Chinese radars on their planes , radar on older Pak F-16's were reportedly better than
the chinese radars. Almost all Indian warplanes have AESA radar except LCA(ELTA?)
 
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Defcon 1

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Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

KLJ-7/10 Fire Control Radar (FCR) (China) - Jane's Avionics

KLJ-7/10 Fire Control Radar (FCR) (China), Airborne radar systems


The KLJ-7 Fire Control Radar (FCR), also referred to as Type 1478, employs a mechanically-scanned, phased-array antenna and is the main radar set for the Chengdu Aircraft Industries/Pakistan Aeronautical Complex FC-1/JF-17 fighter aircraft. A derivative of the KLJ-7, and likely employing a larger diameter array, the KLJ-10/J-10A, is believed to have been installed in the Chengdu J-10 fighter aircraft.In terms of development, the J-7 is reportedly similar in basic design to Phazotron N010 Zhuk family of radars; both Phazotron NIIR and rival radar house NIIP have worked closely in the past with Chinese radar design bureaux and provided technical assistance as well as operational models of Russia-made radar sets that were used as benchmarks in the process of Chinese firms developing their own designs. Nanjing have also reportedly drawn on the Galileo Avionica/Finmeccanica Grifo and the Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) Elta-2032 in developing their own radar designs. While the basic configuration of the J-7 may be similar to that of the Zhuk family, Nanjing utilises Chinese-made electronic components, multi-layered circuit boards, etc.The J-7 has multiple modes, both Beyond Visual Range (BVR) and close-in air-to-air modes, ground surveillance and a robust anti-jamming capability, according to Chinese sources. The radar can reportedly manage up to 40 targets, monitor up to 10 of them in Track-While-Scan (TWS) mode and can engage two targets simultaneously at BVR. The detection range for targets with an radar-cross section of up to 3 square metres is 75 km look-up, or 35 km in look-down mode.

I don't want to go off tangent but i will agree Chinese developed(from Russia Zhuk) their own radar something India
has not done. But it is not an AESA radar and most reports say it is comprable to western planes from 1980-1990's.
yeah thanx for this. But then again, we were arguing about cost and not capability. It is no doubt that many technologies being used on JF17 are obselete. What worries me is what that plane might become in future. Anyways, at this moment I just want that LCA Mk1 should beat JF17 blk 1. Thats my only wish.
 

sayareakd

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Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan


are they making the entire plane from raw material, i didnt saw any of the Pakistani in making the plane from raw material, plus see what the PAF officer said that they concentrated on airframe only.
 
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Defcon 1

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Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

There is no proof China can make crystal blade engines.why are they buying
RD-93 and AL-31?
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=531142
Russia blocks sale of engines for Sino-Pak jets - Rediff.com India News


Russia blocks sale of engines for Sino-Pak fighter jets

A framework agreement for the sale of 500 such engines for the Sino-Pak joint fighter was also signed at that time and Beijing [ Images ] was ready to buy up to 1,000 engines worth over US $ 3 billion,

Yeah thats what I was saying. 1000 engines for $3 billion means $3 million per engine. So this is still cheap.
 

LETHALFORCE

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Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

Yeah thats what I was saying. 1000 engines for $3 billion means $3 million per engine. So this is still cheap.
contract is for 500 chinese said they would buy a 1000 if they were provided the better engine with
more thrust. If it is three million per engine India should re examine their defense relations with Russia.
we are paying 45-55 million per sukhoi even when they are sending kits for assembly.

India pays 3 billion for 42 sukhois

http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20100302/158066242.html

China gets a 1000 engines for 3 billion(yes a different engine) but it still obvious
what the better deal is.
 
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p2prada

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Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

Between LCA and F16 block 1, who do you think people are gonna choose?
LCA is the better bet in that case. Unlike JF-17, LCA is a much more advanced platform. The radar is already top notch for a fighter of this class. It already matches or most probably even exceeds the performance of the APG-68 series of radars. IAF requirements for the radar were for superior performance to all airborne fighter radars in the force save for Bars. This includes the planned Zhuk-ME and RDY-2/3 radars. Detection range for Zhuk-ME is 125Km while it is 105KM for RDY-2 for a similar target size. The LCA's MMR already does 150Km against such targets.

F-16 Block 5/10/15/20 even Block 30 and Block 40 are inferior in avionics to the LCA Mk1. J-10 and JF-17 are yet to match APG-68 performance.

The criticism of the LCA was never about avionics, but about airframe performance and the schedule. There are weight issues which were never taken into consideration when being designed. It was supposed to be a 5.5 ton aircraft but ended up being 6.5 tons. This lead to inferior performance because the F-404 had Zero growth prospect. That's why the need to go for F-414 which has ideal growth prospects. Obviously development is delayed, hence the biggest reason for the criticism of the program.
 
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Defcon 1

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Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

contract is for 500 chinese said they would buy a 1000 if they were provided the better engine with
more thrust. If it is three million per engine India should re examine their defense relations with Russia.

No sir. The contract is only for 100 engines at a price of 238 million, ie 2.38 million per engine.

It is with an option of 500 engines, and it must be assumed that the price for those engines will be even lower.

Also china can go for a 1000 engines if needed.

Btw I don't think India can do much about it. Russians are desperate to keep their production lines running and we are heavily dependent on them. Any protest from our side will lead to delay in delivery of orders and problems in ToT which is certainly not desirable.
 

p2prada

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Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

RD-33 engines are cheap. They come at $2Million a pop. A KLJ-7/10 type radar should come at less than a Million Dollars.
 

LETHALFORCE

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Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

RD-33 engines are cheap. They come at $2Million a pop. A KLJ-7/10 type radar should come at less than a Million Dollars.
would you go up against a modern warplane in a plane with this?
 
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p2prada

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Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

@Nimo.

Compared to LCA's 150Km detection of a 1m[SUP]2[/SUP] target and 300Km for a ship, the KLJ-10 does 75 Km against a 3m[SUP]2[/SUP] target and 135 Km for a ship.

would you go up against a modern warplane in a plane with this?
With the RD-93, yes. With the KLJ-7/10, no.
 

Defcon 1

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Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

@Nimo.

Compared to LCA's 150Km detection of a 1m[SUP]2[/SUP] target and 300Km for a ship, the KLJ-10 does 75 Km against a 3m[SUP]2[/SUP] target and 135 Km for a ship.



With the RD-93, yes. With the KLJ-7/10, no.
On other forum, pakis claim their radar's range is 130 km which will be increased to 150 km in blk 2
 

p2prada

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Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

On other forum, pakis claim their radar's range is 130 km which will be increased to 150 km in blk 2
Do they post an official source for it?
 

LETHALFORCE

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Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

LCA is the better bet in that case. Unlike JF-17, LCA is a much more advanced platform. The radar is already top notch for a fighter of this class. It already matches or most probably even exceeds the performance of the APG-68 series of radars. IAF requirements for the radar were for superior performance to all airborne fighter radars in the force save for Bars. This includes the planned Zhuk-ME and RDY-2/3 radars. Detection range for Zhuk-ME is 125Km while it is 105KM for RDY-2 for a similar target size. The LCA's MMR already does 150Km against such targets.

F-16 Block 5/10/15/20 even Block 30 and Block 40 are inferior in avionics to the LCA Mk1. J-10 and JF-17 are yet to match APG-68 performance.

The criticism of the LCA was never about avionics, but about airframe performance and the schedule. There are weight issues which were never taken into consideration when being designed. It was supposed to be a 5.5 ton aircraft but ended up being 6.5 tons. This lead to inferior performance because the F-404 had Zero growth prospect. That's why the need to go for F-414 which has ideal growth prospects. Obviously development is delayed, hence the biggest reason for the criticism of the program.
GRIPEN C/D and LCA MK1 have almost exact numbers. Only difference is Gripen can supercruise.
Even engines are both GE. Possibly with a future engine from the French LCA numbers will be
better than GRIPEN? LCA MK2 beats Gripen in thrust.
 

Defcon 1

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Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

Do they post an official source for it?
no, but the member claiming it was a senior mod. very knowledgeable and seems a good person from his post. Seems connected too. Don't think he is lying.
 

ice berg

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Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

@Nimo.

Compared to LCA's 150Km detection of a 1m[SUP]2[/SUP] target and 300Km for a ship, the KLJ-10 does 75 Km against a 3m[SUP]2[/SUP] target and 135 Km for a ship.



With the RD-93, yes. With the KLJ-7/10, no.
I wont put much faith in wiki links when it comes to radar performances and RCS.....

Besides neither of them are fully developed yet. How you compare two different platforms in different development stages anyway. Apple and orange.
 

Apollyon

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Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

On other forum, pakis claim their radar's range is 130 km which will be increased to 150 km in blk 2
that's for a Fighter Sized 5m[SUP]2[/SUP] target

Compared to LCA's 150Km detection of a 1m[SUP]2[/SUP] target and 300Km for a ship, the KLJ-10 does 75 Km against a 3m[SUP]2[/SUP] target and 135 Km for a ship.
really, 150km for 1m2 target
 

LETHALFORCE

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Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

yeah thanx for this. But then again, we were arguing about cost and not capability. It is no doubt that many technologies being used on JF17 are obselete. What worries me is what that plane might become in future. Anyways, at this moment I just want that LCA Mk1 should beat JF17 blk 1. Thats my only wish.
Livefist: "JF-17 Not As Advanced As LCA, But It Can Drop Bombs": Nawaz Sharif

"JF-17 Not As Advanced As LCA, But It Can Drop Bombs": Nawaz Sharif
 

pankaj nema

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Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

I just do nt understand that WHY will China waste its LIMITED Human resources
for JF 17 upgradation ie block 2 when they dont want it for themselves and it is for the Pakis only
 

Defcon 1

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