JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 Xiaolong

[cw2005]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

I think China use FC-1 to start its learning path. After FC-1, no matter how obsolete it was, China moved to J10 and then J20. I think we have to appreciate this progress and it started from the designing/learning from FC-1. For a developing country, what important is making progress.

This is the attitute we need to appreciate too. Once a target has made, no matter how people laugh at you, look down on you, you go directly to the target even if you have to buy, borrow, copy, steal etc. In the international politics, there is no good guy or bad guy. To be successful and be the strongest is the only aim.

 

[Akim]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

I think China use FC-1 to start its learning path. After FC-1, no matter how obsolete it was, China moved to J10 and then J20. I think we have to appreciate this progress and it started from the designing/learning from FC-1. For a developing country, what important is making progress.

This is the attitute we need to appreciate too. Once a target has made, no matter how people laugh at you, look down on you, you go directly to the target even if you have to buy, borrow, copy, steal etc. In the international politics, there is no good guy or bad guy. To be successful and be the strongest is the only aim.

Is it possible question?India produced MiG-23- and MiG- 27. And what now models fighter does Indian industry produce?

 

[sayareakd]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

Cheap and best, huummm................

you can either be cheap or best, you cant have best of both worlds, if you want it cheap then you are bound to cut things short and thus would compromised on best.
Lets say in best case situation if you want both, cheapest possible fighter without compromising on quality standards, even then it wont end up as cheapest fighter in the market more like in the middle of cheapest and the costliest fighter, which the junk fighter is not.

I can understand that no one wants Chines fighters except for Pakistan and that too on very soft loan, so that some other third world country would think that Junk fighter is at least purchased by one country, since PLAAF is not even considering it as fighter worth flying.

 

[p2prada]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

sorry to ask this question but am eager to know how the life of an engine can be tripled??

even if possible how much is going to cost us

By using better quality materials in case of Russia. Also by making hot sections of the engine be able to handle more heat in case of F-414. That increases service life.

I think GE is planning on using 5th gen materials to increase service life on F-414.

Is it possible question?India produced MiG-23- and MiG- 27. And what now models fighter does Indian industry produce?

India has produced Mig-21, Mig-27 and Jaguar. Mig-23s were not produced in India.

Before that India has also produced other older gen aircraft like Folland Gnat.

India made the HF-24 Marut from scratch.
Hindustan Fighter: HF-24 Marut [Part 1]
Hindustan Fighter: HF-24 Marut [Part 2]

Today India is developing LCA while producing MKI. In the future we will see PAKFA, Rafale and AMCA hitting production lines.

A UCAV is being designed which will be operational in 2017.

 

[p2prada]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

I think China use FC-1 to start its learning path. After FC-1, no matter how obsolete it was, China moved to J10 and then J20. I think we have to appreciate this progress and it started from the designing/learning from FC-1. For a developing country, what important is making progress.

JF-17 and J-10 were parallel programs with completely different objectives. One was meant for PLAAF and the other was a cheap fighter for export. The J-10 was meant to be a supersonic air superiority fighter while the JF-17 is meant for subsonic DPS(Deep penetration strike) roles, a role PAF Mirages used to accomplish.

There is a chance the final JF=17 design was frozen after J-10 was well into flight testing. Which means the J-10 predates the JF-17.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

Another clueless post from our resident troll. J-17 uses British made ejection seats.
I have no problem with chinese bashing, however I strongly suggest people at least have some basic knowledges....

read the article ejection seat did not work and parachute did not work. Anymore personal remarks
will be an infarction.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

Regarding J 10 Pakis and Chinese members BOTH on the enemy forum are
SPECULATING what is the big delay

There are three theories going around

1 PAF has NO MONEY China is NOT giving freebies at least this time ie
the price China wants for its J 10 is not affordable to the pakis

2 . AL 31 engines are NOT for sale J 10 is powered by AL 31
which has been barred by the Russians for exports AND WS 10 is Not ready

3 Pakis want a better quality J 10 B and not the current J 10 A
This means J 10 A is also below the Paki expectations

Number 2 is the real reason . Russia has so far only given 100 engines to China they
have to choose between their own needs or Pakistan. Russia has signed for 500 engines
but they will take a decade to deliver to make sure China does not use their engines to
compete with them, by that time engine will be obsolete .

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

Cheap and best, huummm................

you can either be cheap or best, you cant have best of both worlds, if you want it cheap then you are bound to cut things short and thus would compromised on best.
Lets say in best case situation if you want both, cheapest possible fighter without compromising on quality standards, even then it wont end up as cheapest fighter in the market more like in the middle of cheapest and the costliest fighter, which the junk fighter is not.

I can understand that no one wants Chines fighters except for Pakistan and that too on very soft loan, so that some other third world country would think that Junk fighter is at least purchased by one country, since PLAAF is not even considering it as fighter worth flying.

Radars alone on most modern warplanes cost $4-10 million per plane. If this plane costs 20
million where are the savings coming from? Russia has contract for 500 engines for 3 billion
that is about 17 million a plane the rest of the plane can be built for 3 million??

Think about the cost for upgrades for our Sukhois,Mirages and MIGS and you
will get a better idea.

 

[Defcon 1]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

Radars alone on most modern warplanes cost $4-10 million per plane. If this plane costs 20
million where are the savings coming from? Russia has contract for 500 engines for 3 billion
that is about 17 million a plane the rest of the plane can be built for 3 million??

Think about the cost for upgrades for our Sukhois,Mirages and MIGS and you
will get a better idea.

Radars are chinese. So obviously they will be cheaper than western ones, even if they are of good quality. Its simple logic.

http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20101116/161360534.html

Read the above article to get the price of the engine. Its less than 3 million. I don't know what sources you are using.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

Radars are chinese. So obviously they will be cheaper than western ones, even if they are of good quality. Its simple logic.

Military grade Semiconductors used in the radar are not cheap. Selex was suppose to
be used in the past but the radar reportedly overheated from a inferior
cooling system?

 

[Defcon 1]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

Military grade Semiconductors used in the radar are not cheap. Selex was suppose to
be used in the past but the radar reportedly overheated from a inferior
cooling system?

It may be so. But what I meant was that any product made in countries like India & China will almost always be cheaper than its western counterpart. And refer to my previous post again. I have edited it.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

It may be so. But what I meant was that any product made in countries like India & China will almost always be cheaper than its western counterpart. And refer to my previous post again. I have edited it.

This is a false assumption LCA and Jf-17 have both had price overruns and delays.
when you are starting from scratch it is more expensive than mass production.

 

[Defcon 1]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

This is a false assumption LCA and Jf-17 have both had price overruns and delays.
when you are starting from scratch it is more expensive than mass production.

Well we can agree to disagree on this one. But atleast your claim about the engine price is definitely wrong. And the JF17 radar wasn't made from scratch. China has previous experience in building similar types.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

Well we can agree to disagree on this one. But atleast your claim about the engine price is definitely wrong. And the JF17 radar wasn't made from scratch. China has previous experience in building similar types.

There is no proof China can make crystal blade engines.why are they buying
RD-93 and AL-31?

http://news.rediff.com/interview/2010/jul/05/russia-blocks-engine-sales-for-sino-pak-jets.htm


Russia blocks sale of engines for Sino-Pak fighter jets

A framework agreement for the sale of 500 such engines for the Sino-Pak joint fighter was also signed at that time and Beijing [ Images ] was ready to buy up to 1,000 engines worth over US $ 3 billion,

 

[nimo_cn]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

LoL. I had pointed that out too. The Block 1 is same as LCA Mk1. It failed to reach performance goals.

In terms of electronics it is inferior to the Mk1 as well. In terms of T/W ratio it is lower than LCA Mk1. It won't function as well as it should in desert heat. Weapons choices, we have more, way better choices. But I am not sure how far Chinese weaponry has progressed.

Block 1 has no growth prospects and Block 2 isn't gonna be any different. Heck, an aircraft strapped PAF only managed 50 Block 1s which is a big deal. Block 2 seems to have 50 orders too and from what we know there will be a small radar upgrade and some avionics upgrade. If there is no engine change or even a high thrust variant of the RD-93, then it will be as useless as the Block 1. They can only hope they can upgrade the Block 1 to carry a new high thrust engine, but it will be way too difficult to the point where their only selling point, "Affordability", could go for a toss.

Between LCA and F16 block 1, who do you think people are gonna choose?

 

[Defcon 1]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

There is no proof China can make crystal blade engines.why are they buying
RD-93 and AL-31?

Yeah so?? we are talking about radars right????? Clarify what are u trying to say.

 

[Bhadra]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

Between LCA and F16 block 1, who do you think people are gonna choose?

Between F-16 block 50 and above and J-10 of any variety, who do you think people are going to choose ?
LCA is much superior to J-10. Time will prove, my friend.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

Yeah so?? we are talking about radars right????? Clarify what are u trying to say.

what experience does China have in building radar? China does not have any AESA radar?
If i am wrong ,provide a link?

 

[Defcon 1]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

what experience does China have in building radar? China does not have any AESA radar?
If i am wrong ,provide a link?

What are you talking about?????

Read slowly buddy, we are talking about JF17 cost.

JF17 does not have AESA radar. Hence, it is useless to talk about AESA radar.

JF17 has klj7 radar.

Its similar version klj10 is installed on J10

Both klj7 & klj10 were developed and mass produced in china.

Hence, they did not develop the JF17 radar from scratch.

Hence it is possible that its cost may be low.

Is it clear now?????

 

[p2prada]

Re: JF-17 obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for Pakistan

Take-off Magazine : RD-33: output on the rise

According to Klimov, the company's jet engine priorities are the development of the modified RD-93MA with the thrust enhanced to 9,300 kgf for a foreign customer and the development of the upgraded RD-33MKM with a thrust of 9,500 kgf for the MiG corporation

Seems like PAF is going for a 91KN engine replacing the 81KN RD-93 being used now. It is not much, but it should do for now. It seems to be an uprated RD-33 core. A 1 ton thrust would enable the JF-17 to achieve a T/W ratio of greater than 1 at 50-75% fuel and air to air loads.

A 94 KN engine is going to MiG, maybe for the Mig-29UPG, Mig-29SMT, Mig-29K or the Mig-35. Maybe for all of these. IAF may benefit from this if Mig-29UPG is equipped with the 93KN engine. I am not sure if the same design can be used on IN's Mig-29Ks because the engines are being manufactured here. Maybe this engine is meant for the Russian Navy.

Both engines seem to be under development though. So it may be sometime before we see them.

It also appears Klimov has fulfilled only half the RD-93 orders for PLAAF, which would mean the first 50 Block 1s will have 81KN RD-93 which we know. A contract is yet to be signed, so the Block 2s may have the new engine. Unless of course the engine is still being developed and will take longer. If that is the case even Block 2s will see the old RD-93.