chex3009
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For an unbiased view, LCA Tejas is a 4th Generation Fighter.
Check this out for more details: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas
JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 Xiaolong
- Thread starter A.V.
- Start date
Check this out for more details: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas
The reason for adding JF 17 to the PAF inventry is because of the sad economy of Pakistan. But said that it doesn't mean that the fighter is junk. More in numbers can outperform any defence mate. And for ur information that there piolots are very well trained. I do not under-estimate IAF piolots, but no daught that it is a killing machine. We do as per our needs and same is for them. Let the fighter come in any competition and then it can be evaluated. Meanwhile the fighter is in early stage and can undergo several other modification after induction.
Dear Death By Chocolate,
I have been following ur posts from quite a few days even in ***********. Yes ur posts are informative and rather than debating, ur claims are supported by facts. You are right that no country like pakistan is without the air defence systems. SAM's AWE&C's and interceptors can detect intruding IAF fighter jets surely. If IAF escorting a strike package, then 100.00% chance that pakistan will either retaliate or intercept. F-16's can fly terrain huged, and having cover of ground cluster untill SU-30 MKI can come near to its WVR. Deffinately then F-16 can rise (which has one of the best climbing rate) can get a good lock on MKI which has huge RCS. Though counter measures can be applied. But i daught whether this will work due to present of Phalcon AWACS and data linking of it with MKI's. There might be few another strategies of PAF depending on their doctrine and equal conter measures as well. Am i correct Mr. Chocolate??
To my indian fanboy mates, please have a detailed research over the issue and then coment, y to have own jingoism. I am proud of IAF and its fighter jets and piolots, but it doesn't mean that you should dis-respect ur enemy.:emot159::emot159:
Regards
Achilles (Shrikant Parwate, Aurangabad, India)
bharadwaj
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The JF-17 was initiated as a credible replacement to their illegally made Chinese copies of the MiG-21 and it has not only done that but is a true multi role platform.(atleast that's what the Pakistanis say!) For 15-20 million$,one cannot expect a better plane than this and BTW,It serves their purpose,even though over-hyped........
bharadwaj
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This is where numbers come in!what I want to say is 272 Flankers vs 100 F-16's is not gonna be pretty for them(not for us either because they don't have a NO FIRST USE policy)They say that because of China we would not shift all of our Flankers to our west but that is where they are wrong!They would think twice before using their most advanced,reliable jet for dog-fights and are most likely to use them to take out our SAM sites ,E-warfare etc.so we can use the Fulcrum for air deterrence/superiority,Fishbeds for Hit and run or AWACS controlled missile delivery systems and the Flankers for bombing,air-dominance and hence we might have an edge but it aint that decisive.........And as far as their detecting capability is concerned,there will be some loop-holes which we can exploit and vice-versa.Some experts can help...............
icecoolben
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As far as I look within the context of JF-17 thunder. thunder normally stands for pride; seeing that they had the confidence to bring it to farnborough air show when china itself hasn't showcased its j-10, I believe pakistanis are determined to make this aircraft a complete success.
When the pakistani premier picked up Indian nerve by commenting, "JF-17 may not be as advanced as Tejas, but it can drop bombs", it shows the aircraft's tactical utility has put it above their whims about F-16, J-10, grippen etc. JF-17 is definitely pakistan's thunder, for which India hasn't tactically responded.
When the pakistani premier picked up Indian nerve by commenting, "JF-17 may not be as advanced as Tejas, but it can drop bombs", it shows the aircraft's tactical utility has put it above their whims about F-16, J-10, grippen etc. JF-17 is definitely pakistan's thunder, for which India hasn't tactically responded.
For both India and Pakistan JF thunder and Tejas are matter of national prides.. hence there is no stoppage for them. The plus point towards Tejas is that its next upgraded version mk2 will be more advanced and will meet the for being a world class fighter.. I daught that for JF since China is focusing a great deal on J20, their 5th G Bird which took off skies a few days back. India cant be only Pakistan centric.. and as said correctly by Bharadwaj it cant deploy all forces to the western front, have to have a deterence against mighty PLAAF. and thus Indegenization and self reliance would be required to answer the threat from China..
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Why should Pakistan be proud of the JF-17?
They didn't contribute a single component to the plane. It is a 100% Chinese fighter, with a Pakistani paint job.
Our Su-30MKIs are far more "indigenous" than PAF JF-17s.
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It should be noted that the $15 million price tag quoted from Pakistan is the Pak work value of the plane. Once you add engine, avionics, and weapons a product price would be more like $40 million. That is why Pakistan was scouting France so hard.
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Pakistani JF-17 A Thunder OR A Blunder
Pakistan has witnessed new defense acquisitions in this decade than any other, and in the center of it all is the new fighter which was designed by China with partial funding from Pakistan. It is formally known as JF-17 Thunder. When the fighter was in development, Pakistani online communities were jumping with excitement comparing it with its arch rival India's modern combatants Su-30MKI, Mig-29S & Mirage-2000H. There were claims of it featuring western Radars and long range missiles, & Chinese ordering some due to its superior capabilities. But the reality is far from it.
China having spent significant amount of money into a fighter which it is never going to use, most probably forced Pakistan to accept its avionics to offset some its development costs. Chinese who are known for their self reliance first and quality next, are further downgrading JF-17s capabilities with their poorly copy-pirated avionics. Along with their dubious weapons, any chance of JF-17 maintaining BVR edge over its adversary's front-line combatants, for the most part, is unlikely.
Even in close combat JF-17 lacks what it takes to win the fight. Its spine, & wings bearing resemblance(in wing twist & wing area) to a fighter which china knows inside out, the J-7, doesn't have wing twist nor does it have enough area to provide a low wing loading. Its performance during low speeds and high alphas would be very dangerous for the pilot indeed. It has a Maximum G loading of only 8, as claimed by PAC. Its thrust to weight ratio is another negative point. When its arch rival, the Indian Air Force(IAF), was overtly critical of Tejas for having a low Thrust to Weight ratio, maybe they should have compared it with JF-17 which has even less, even with Emergency Thrust. Pakistan Aeronautical Complex(PAC) proudly displays the RD-93's "Combat thrust with afterburner" as 19,200lbf, while the whole defense community knows RD-93's thrust is 18,300lbf and the only real thrust increase was achieved with its new re-designed Sea Wasp RD-33MK engines- which has been explicitly stated by Klimov. However, Klimov's RD-33 series 3(or series 2?), whose avatar is RD-93 with re-positioned Gear boxes, has a provision for emergency thrust which Klimov says can produce 8700kgf(~19200lbf) in their officially released document. They further state that as "Take-off emergency mode". So the mentioned thrust can only be used during take-off where the Air is denser, and also only during emergency situations since it would seriously lower the engine's lifespan. This is a far cry from PAC's "Combat thrust" claim. Why this is being stated is because, the engines(bought by the Chinese after pressurizing the Russians) are the only non-Chinese & non-Pakistani component, and even there they have lied about its capabilities. Hence the true, lower than published, specifications of Chinese and Pakistani components are open to any one's guesses. In any case, the close combat capabilities of JF-17 is below average or average at best.
The next Achilles heal is JF-17's speed. For a good interception, speed is an important criteria. However JF-17's max speed is Mach 1.6 which is claimed by PAC. This indicates that JF-17 is draggier. When compared, their F-7s(Reverse engineered Mig-21s) have higher speed of mach 2+ with a lower thrust engine. The IAF fighters which it is going to face, all have speeds greater than the Thunder.
So why is Pakistan still inducting more and more of this fighter, which its critics increasingly call it Junk Fighter – 17 ? The answer may lie with Pakistan's recent trauma & its psyche. Having sanctioned by the U.S, the star of their airforce, the F-16s were severally hit by lack of spares and most of the time grounded. The other 2 sources to procure modern Aircraft- Russia, have been sealed off due to the legacy of Soviet era friendship, current market in India & India's pressure- and the other source, the European Union, for their extremely high costs. The third source, the Chinese, at that time were still flying their reverse engineered Mig-21s. In those circumstances, "Never again" was the motto of PAF and it instantly jumped into the project of further reversing the reverse engineered Mig-21, known as Super-7(a.k.a Super F-7) to obtain self reliance. The result of that project is the JF-17. So the decision was appropriate at that time, in those situations. However now with China having developed the J-10, and going by the recent reports of offering ToT(Transfer of Technology) to Pakistan, one wonders why are the Pakistanis still ordering 250 planes. Is the trauma of F-16 sanctions so high that they don't even trust the Chinese? This can't be the case because they still need the Chinese to procure the RD-93 engines for them, even after the Chinese transfer all their associated JF-17 tech to PAC. So why...? The answer lies with their ego/psyche rather than the trauma. Unlike J-10, Pakistan shares copyright to JF-17 and that, for some weird reason, gives them something to celebrate about. This is strange for the reason, war machines are for fighting wars and achieving tactical & strategic objectives, not for gloating about who holds the copyrights. When JF-17 comes face to face with MKI or SMT, there won't be much to celebrate about it, or the few millions if at all it earns though exports. In the end, it's all about defending ones homeland from the enemy, and not copyrights.
Pakistani JF-17 A Thunder OR A Blunder ~ ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS
Pakistan has witnessed new defense acquisitions in this decade than any other, and in the center of it all is the new fighter which was designed by China with partial funding from Pakistan. It is formally known as JF-17 Thunder. When the fighter was in development, Pakistani online communities were jumping with excitement comparing it with its arch rival India's modern combatants Su-30MKI, Mig-29S & Mirage-2000H. There were claims of it featuring western Radars and long range missiles, & Chinese ordering some due to its superior capabilities. But the reality is far from it.
China having spent significant amount of money into a fighter which it is never going to use, most probably forced Pakistan to accept its avionics to offset some its development costs. Chinese who are known for their self reliance first and quality next, are further downgrading JF-17s capabilities with their poorly copy-pirated avionics. Along with their dubious weapons, any chance of JF-17 maintaining BVR edge over its adversary's front-line combatants, for the most part, is unlikely.
Even in close combat JF-17 lacks what it takes to win the fight. Its spine, & wings bearing resemblance(in wing twist & wing area) to a fighter which china knows inside out, the J-7, doesn't have wing twist nor does it have enough area to provide a low wing loading. Its performance during low speeds and high alphas would be very dangerous for the pilot indeed. It has a Maximum G loading of only 8, as claimed by PAC. Its thrust to weight ratio is another negative point. When its arch rival, the Indian Air Force(IAF), was overtly critical of Tejas for having a low Thrust to Weight ratio, maybe they should have compared it with JF-17 which has even less, even with Emergency Thrust. Pakistan Aeronautical Complex(PAC) proudly displays the RD-93's "Combat thrust with afterburner" as 19,200lbf, while the whole defense community knows RD-93's thrust is 18,300lbf and the only real thrust increase was achieved with its new re-designed Sea Wasp RD-33MK engines- which has been explicitly stated by Klimov. However, Klimov's RD-33 series 3(or series 2?), whose avatar is RD-93 with re-positioned Gear boxes, has a provision for emergency thrust which Klimov says can produce 8700kgf(~19200lbf) in their officially released document. They further state that as "Take-off emergency mode". So the mentioned thrust can only be used during take-off where the Air is denser, and also only during emergency situations since it would seriously lower the engine's lifespan. This is a far cry from PAC's "Combat thrust" claim. Why this is being stated is because, the engines(bought by the Chinese after pressurizing the Russians) are the only non-Chinese & non-Pakistani component, and even there they have lied about its capabilities. Hence the true, lower than published, specifications of Chinese and Pakistani components are open to any one's guesses. In any case, the close combat capabilities of JF-17 is below average or average at best.
The next Achilles heal is JF-17's speed. For a good interception, speed is an important criteria. However JF-17's max speed is Mach 1.6 which is claimed by PAC. This indicates that JF-17 is draggier. When compared, their F-7s(Reverse engineered Mig-21s) have higher speed of mach 2+ with a lower thrust engine. The IAF fighters which it is going to face, all have speeds greater than the Thunder.
So why is Pakistan still inducting more and more of this fighter, which its critics increasingly call it Junk Fighter – 17 ? The answer may lie with Pakistan's recent trauma & its psyche. Having sanctioned by the U.S, the star of their airforce, the F-16s were severally hit by lack of spares and most of the time grounded. The other 2 sources to procure modern Aircraft- Russia, have been sealed off due to the legacy of Soviet era friendship, current market in India & India's pressure- and the other source, the European Union, for their extremely high costs. The third source, the Chinese, at that time were still flying their reverse engineered Mig-21s. In those circumstances, "Never again" was the motto of PAF and it instantly jumped into the project of further reversing the reverse engineered Mig-21, known as Super-7(a.k.a Super F-7) to obtain self reliance. The result of that project is the JF-17. So the decision was appropriate at that time, in those situations. However now with China having developed the J-10, and going by the recent reports of offering ToT(Transfer of Technology) to Pakistan, one wonders why are the Pakistanis still ordering 250 planes. Is the trauma of F-16 sanctions so high that they don't even trust the Chinese? This can't be the case because they still need the Chinese to procure the RD-93 engines for them, even after the Chinese transfer all their associated JF-17 tech to PAC. So why...? The answer lies with their ego/psyche rather than the trauma. Unlike J-10, Pakistan shares copyright to JF-17 and that, for some weird reason, gives them something to celebrate about. This is strange for the reason, war machines are for fighting wars and achieving tactical & strategic objectives, not for gloating about who holds the copyrights. When JF-17 comes face to face with MKI or SMT, there won't be much to celebrate about it, or the few millions if at all it earns though exports. In the end, it's all about defending ones homeland from the enemy, and not copyrights.
Pakistani JF-17 A Thunder OR A Blunder ~ ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS
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Brazil sells Pakistan MAR-1 anti-radiation missiles
This may affect Embraer plans to develop a regional jet with India
Brazilian company Mectron in 2008 (before it was bought by a conglomerate Odebrecht) sold a batch of anti-radar missiles to Pakistan MAR-1 in quantities, presumably of about 100 pieces. Reported by the Brazilian press.
The deal amounted to about 85 million euros. Missile-equipped destroyers Mirage III and Mirage V, as well as the JF-17 Pakistan Air Force. Transfer of missiles Pakistani side of the place, presumably in 2009, when the C-130 Pakistan Air Force flew to Brazil, the airport of San Jose dos Campos.
Reports of negotiations between Brazil and Pakistan on the supply of rockets came in 2008 - against the backdrop of terrorist attacks in India's Mumbai, complicating delivery approval by the Brazilian government. Nevertheless, approval has been obtained, but the details of the contract so far nothing was known.
The news that the Brazilian rocket accepted for service of Pakistan, now could complicate relations with India, Brazil, and only nascent military-technical cooperation between the two countries, as well as adversely affect the course of negotiations between Brazil's Embraer and the Indian DRDO to jointly develop 90-100-seat regional airliner . Note that for India these missiles in Pakistan are nothing new, since information on the approval of the supply authorities of Brazil came back in 2008
This may affect Embraer plans to develop a regional jet with India
Brazilian company Mectron in 2008 (before it was bought by a conglomerate Odebrecht) sold a batch of anti-radar missiles to Pakistan MAR-1 in quantities, presumably of about 100 pieces. Reported by the Brazilian press.
The deal amounted to about 85 million euros. Missile-equipped destroyers Mirage III and Mirage V, as well as the JF-17 Pakistan Air Force. Transfer of missiles Pakistani side of the place, presumably in 2009, when the C-130 Pakistan Air Force flew to Brazil, the airport of San Jose dos Campos.
Reports of negotiations between Brazil and Pakistan on the supply of rockets came in 2008 - against the backdrop of terrorist attacks in India's Mumbai, complicating delivery approval by the Brazilian government. Nevertheless, approval has been obtained, but the details of the contract so far nothing was known.
The news that the Brazilian rocket accepted for service of Pakistan, now could complicate relations with India, Brazil, and only nascent military-technical cooperation between the two countries, as well as adversely affect the course of negotiations between Brazil's Embraer and the Indian DRDO to jointly develop 90-100-seat regional airliner . Note that for India these missiles in Pakistan are nothing new, since information on the approval of the supply authorities of Brazil came back in 2008
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Why are you posting news from three years ago?
These will have next to no impact on the Indo-Brazilian relationship. We will continue to develop our regional airliner.
When France sold Pakistan Mirage III/Vs, Agosta subs, Crotale SAMs, etc. it didn't prevent us from buying the Mirage 2000.
Actually it must have prevented us from making such purchases. We should stop west from taking advantage, we cannot allow them to make profits by selling to both sides while our people die. It must be "either with us or against us".
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Check the date, it is today. The news is it is accepted into service. A new missile IAF must deal with and a new capability for JF-17.
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The article itself says that India has known about the purchase since 2008.
Obviously, this did not affect the Indo-Brazilian projects that have taken place since then.
JF-17 Block II, A Final Thunder & The FC-20
Pakistan and China have recently concluded a final agreement for the manufacture of a second batch of JF-17s. According to well-vetted sources from Pakdef (Eagle Hannan), these 50 jets are the final form of the JF-17s. The aircraft will be manufactured at Kamra, Pakistan, but will be flown to China for additional work. This work is said to relate to a new generation of avionics and sensor suite.
The Block II JF-17 is believed to have AESA radars similar to those observed on the J-10B. The integrated avionics, sensors and EW suite is entirely Chinese and is believed to be at the level of Europes best planes. The AESA radar is a slightly smaller version of the one being utilized for the J-10B. The radar is highly sophisticated and its installation is beyond the present capacity at PAC Kamra and will thus require the aircraft to take a trip to Nanjing, China.
The Block II will be the standard version to be used in the PAF with the older Block Is to be retired after the end of production for the first 150 aircraft. This suggests that the structural changes needed to convert the Block Is to Block II standard are significant, suggesting considerable changes to the revised edition. The following are believed to be some of the key changes:
1. AESA radar
2. Comprehensive upgrades for low RCS profile including cockpit glass, RAM paint, refined structure, completely new nose structure for AESA, significant increase in the use of composites and retractable refueling probe.
3. Awaited integration of A-Darter missiles from Brazil / South Africa with HOBS capability and Brazilian HMS.
4. The BVR missile is the SD-10B which has been found more than a match for the AMRAAM-120 C5s. An unknown Meteor class missile is in the works beyond the SD-10Bs.
A significant export order has been secured and an entire squadron is being dedicated for training and familiarization of foreign pilots (Source: Eagle Hannan, Pakdef).
Contrary to conflicting reports in the media, this writer believes that the order for the FC-20s were finalized and that this order has increased to 58 planes. Given the recent crisis post-Abbottabad, the PAF is being beefed up in a hurry and the FC-20s will play a critical role in the defence of the Western sector. Given the nature of the mountainous terrain and the inability to use the F-16s, these platforms along with the JF-17 will prove to be of significant deterrence value. China is believed to be sacrificing its own production requirements to meet PAF's needs in a hurry and unbelievable financial terms appear to have been extended.
These FC-20s are a highly lethal version of the original and incorporate AESA radars, a high degree of composite use, low observability features and an advanced integrated avionics suite. The wide HUD visible on the J-11s are also believed to have been utilized. In Eagle Hannan's recent update, he notes that the wings have been modified and include over 50% composite use. He also makes the surprising claim that the canard fore-planes have been modified. Both these factors indicate a significant structural and aerodynamic revamp that would require significant changes even in the FBW.Such a revamp was already suspected given the canted nose and the DSI bump.
The same source also indicates that the plane (FC-20) has been praised by pilots and capable of incredible maneuvers including the Cobra so famously performed by the FLANKERs. He notes that FC-20 not only performs this maneuver but also performs it better, recovering significantly faster. While this maneuver is not of great military importance, the maneuverability and Fly-By-Wire (FBW) maturity this indicates, suggest that the FC-20 is a well-evolved and lethal machine.
Eagle Hannan also indicates that the Pakistan Navy is interested in the J-11Bs with Russian engines. This appears to be counter-intuitive given the sensitive nature of Russia's copyright relations with China. However, it is possible that Pakistan may attempt to placate this sensitivity by buying Russian engines and paying royalties. It is also possible that Russia is smarting from India's recent rejection of Russian military gear and move towards Western sources. These all make for a great deal of controversy and are likely to keep arm-chair generals and military analysts busy in the foreseeable future.What is clear is that Pakistan and the PAF will get a significant boost, in fact a major leap in capabilities in the next 12-24 months.
JF-17 Block II, A Final Thunder & The FC-20 ~ Indian Defense News
Pakistan and China have recently concluded a final agreement for the manufacture of a second batch of JF-17s. According to well-vetted sources from Pakdef (Eagle Hannan), these 50 jets are the final form of the JF-17s. The aircraft will be manufactured at Kamra, Pakistan, but will be flown to China for additional work. This work is said to relate to a new generation of avionics and sensor suite.
The Block II JF-17 is believed to have AESA radars similar to those observed on the J-10B. The integrated avionics, sensors and EW suite is entirely Chinese and is believed to be at the level of Europes best planes. The AESA radar is a slightly smaller version of the one being utilized for the J-10B. The radar is highly sophisticated and its installation is beyond the present capacity at PAC Kamra and will thus require the aircraft to take a trip to Nanjing, China.
The Block II will be the standard version to be used in the PAF with the older Block Is to be retired after the end of production for the first 150 aircraft. This suggests that the structural changes needed to convert the Block Is to Block II standard are significant, suggesting considerable changes to the revised edition. The following are believed to be some of the key changes:
1. AESA radar
2. Comprehensive upgrades for low RCS profile including cockpit glass, RAM paint, refined structure, completely new nose structure for AESA, significant increase in the use of composites and retractable refueling probe.
3. Awaited integration of A-Darter missiles from Brazil / South Africa with HOBS capability and Brazilian HMS.
4. The BVR missile is the SD-10B which has been found more than a match for the AMRAAM-120 C5s. An unknown Meteor class missile is in the works beyond the SD-10Bs.
A significant export order has been secured and an entire squadron is being dedicated for training and familiarization of foreign pilots (Source: Eagle Hannan, Pakdef).
Contrary to conflicting reports in the media, this writer believes that the order for the FC-20s were finalized and that this order has increased to 58 planes. Given the recent crisis post-Abbottabad, the PAF is being beefed up in a hurry and the FC-20s will play a critical role in the defence of the Western sector. Given the nature of the mountainous terrain and the inability to use the F-16s, these platforms along with the JF-17 will prove to be of significant deterrence value. China is believed to be sacrificing its own production requirements to meet PAF's needs in a hurry and unbelievable financial terms appear to have been extended.
These FC-20s are a highly lethal version of the original and incorporate AESA radars, a high degree of composite use, low observability features and an advanced integrated avionics suite. The wide HUD visible on the J-11s are also believed to have been utilized. In Eagle Hannan's recent update, he notes that the wings have been modified and include over 50% composite use. He also makes the surprising claim that the canard fore-planes have been modified. Both these factors indicate a significant structural and aerodynamic revamp that would require significant changes even in the FBW.Such a revamp was already suspected given the canted nose and the DSI bump.
The same source also indicates that the plane (FC-20) has been praised by pilots and capable of incredible maneuvers including the Cobra so famously performed by the FLANKERs. He notes that FC-20 not only performs this maneuver but also performs it better, recovering significantly faster. While this maneuver is not of great military importance, the maneuverability and Fly-By-Wire (FBW) maturity this indicates, suggest that the FC-20 is a well-evolved and lethal machine.
Eagle Hannan also indicates that the Pakistan Navy is interested in the J-11Bs with Russian engines. This appears to be counter-intuitive given the sensitive nature of Russia's copyright relations with China. However, it is possible that Pakistan may attempt to placate this sensitivity by buying Russian engines and paying royalties. It is also possible that Russia is smarting from India's recent rejection of Russian military gear and move towards Western sources. These all make for a great deal of controversy and are likely to keep arm-chair generals and military analysts busy in the foreseeable future.What is clear is that Pakistan and the PAF will get a significant boost, in fact a major leap in capabilities in the next 12-24 months.
JF-17 Block II, A Final Thunder & The FC-20 ~ Indian Defense News
Patriot
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I think they forgot to mention GAN AESA of 5000 modules with the range of 2000KM, JDAMs, AASMs, Storm Shadows, Exocets, ALARMS, Torpedoes, Brimstones, hypersonic cruise missiles and STOVL capability etc etc...... Funny
Last edited:
satish007
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JF-17's advatage is it can be produced by self even it is CCP(hopefully China has had own engine and have enough spares from Russia). As the U.S. and its allies proved in WWII, quantity can outgun quality in a war of attrition.
FC-20 might have AESA. but all are defenece planes, unable to carry nuke bombs as Indian Planes.
FC-20 might have AESA. but all are defenece planes, unable to carry nuke bombs as Indian Planes.
sayareakd
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this is only blog report not news, you can do all sort of things on blogs, any type of story.
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