JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 Xiaolong

ThorTheRagnarok

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@nongaddarliberal
Westren fighters are very expensive and there in simple word mechanics are not available due to tech limitations. Such as a mechanic which can handle a simple corolla can not handle a BMW or Porche.
 

nongaddarliberal

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Sir ,
But I were you I will choose F-18 hornet or Eurofighter instead of Rafales
F18 is worse than Rafale in all respects. And Eurofighter is much more expensive without giving any big difference in capability. Not only in purchasing cost, but also maintenance. Rafale gives very high sortie rates compared to any other fighter jet. It is very quick and easy to maintain. It has the lowest infrared signature of the above mentioned fighters. It has better electronic countermeasures. It can carry more bombs and missiles due to more hardpoints. And diplomatically, France will not stop spare part supply in a war, it has proven very trustworthy. But America, as well as the four Euro countries selling Eurofighter will probably stop spare supplies in a war they don't approve of.
 

nongaddarliberal

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Westren fighters are very expensive and there in simple word mechanics are not available due to tech limitations. Such as a mechanic which can handle a simple corolla can not handle a BMW or Porche.
Mechanics? IAF maintenance personnel can handle any aircraft that you throw at them. And they all train extensively for the specific aircraft that the IAF assigns them to. Su 30mki and Mig 29 maintenance is actually harder than western fighters.
 

ThorTheRagnarok

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Mechanics? IAF maintenance personnel can handle any aircraft that you throw at them. And they all train extensively for the specific aircraft that the IAF assigns them to. Su 30mki and Mig 29 maintenance is actually harder than western fighters.
Sir I was talking about technology purpose
For example in very simple words A simple mechanic can easily handle a Mechanic speedo metre but not a digital metre
As far as SU-30mki and Mig-29s these both are mainly have conventional mechanically systems not too much fkin and freakin digital than Rafales F-35 and F/A-18s.
I don't said IAF mechanics don't able to fix them but it will be very difficult for them to do it.
 

ThorTheRagnarok

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Mechanics? IAF maintenance personnel can handle any aircraft that you throw at them. And they all train extensively for the specific aircraft that the IAF assigns them to. Su 30mki and Mig 29 maintenance is actually harder than western fighters.
More digital fly by wire.HUDs super computer type stuff even we take 20 year to master a westren fighter F-16.
 

nongaddarliberal

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Sir I was talking about technology purpose
For example in very simple words A simple mechanic can easily handle a Mechanic speedo metre but not a digital metre
As far as SU-30mki and Mig-29s these both are mainly have conventional mechanically systems not too much fkin and freakin digital than Rafales F-35 and F/A-18s.
I don't said IAF mechanics don't able to fix them but it will be very difficult for them to do it.
Every aircraft comes with it's unique training program for maintenance, which takes maybe a year, I'm not sure. Once the maintenance guys are trained, there is no problem afterwards. This does not take 20 years. And the su30mki that India operates is different from the base su30 that Russia has, because we've installed many French, Israeli, and Indian systems in It, which makes all the electronics and computers equal to western fighter jets. So IAF maintenance personnel already have experience in this stuff. Not to mention mirage 2000's are also being operated very smoothly, even after extensive upgrades.
 

rone

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There is very Big difference between IAF operation and maintenance protocols and PAF, all PAF fighters comes In. Stock configuration in initial induction but down the road they seen extensive upgrade with Chinese or Italian avionics, but in IAF case all aircrafts get inducted have IAF specific mods, also they never in stock form, thus it gives iaf a fexibilty to train and setups maintenance facility all over India, this brings whopping 60-73% over all aircraft availability,

But in PAF side they also not bad they proved that even using leagcy outdated systems with newer modern systems using some particular updates u can pull out a tactical network based warfighting capabilities, example f7 have the ability to que the missiles from jf17, both now using similar data link only handful f7 upagrdaed with this capabilities
 

jat

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My dear Sir,

US has F-22 raptor but it does not stop inducting F/A-18 super hornets and F-15 strike eagle same as
China has J-20 but it inducts su-35 and J-16.
Yea, and the F-18 provides carrier borne abilities and the F-15 are being utilized as MLU to make them operable for longer periods and perhaps cheaper runs. But America isn't buying Su-35s, and you haven't explained why China didn't buy the Su-34 for naval strike role. The J-20 and J-15 provide near the same capability of the Su-35 on paper. Unless they did not.
You are contradicting your own statement cuz mig-21 was a great dog fighter.You also had 300+ mig-21s.And mig-21s also fked F-4 phantom.during Vietnamese War.And F-4 although was a good fighter plane! I think!
Correct me if I am wrong!....
It was decent. Its nothing like the modern fighter these days. The Mig-21 was something like a rocket with a cockpit. Its turn was terrible and ability to dog fight was limited but thanks to its top speed and acceleration it was able to knock out older platforms and intercept and run off not to mention soviet missiles were unrelieble. You'll note that the Mig-21 looks like larger Brahmos missile. But with advancement of missiles the platforms changed for greater roles. The Mig-21 was an unforgiving aircraft.
Respected Sir,
RD-93 is a "variant" of RD-33 and produced in 2008-2018 for blk 1 and blk 2.Where-ever RD-33 was made for mig-29s in 1980s.Do you really think that there is no difference between the tech of engine making in the era of 1980 and 2018 with a gap of 40 years and also the manufacturing company is mikoyan one of the same level company to Lookheed Martin, Northrop and Boeing???.....
You'll note originally they RD-33 engines were designed for a short life span. The Mig-29 was designed to quickly replace the engines and was twin engines in case 1 engine failed. The reason this was, most likily because of the cheap and fast construction time of the engines. Quantity was considered and given emphasis. Since then the Rd-33 engine has evolved with a greater life span before maintenance required but that does not change the initial designs by much. Its still RD-93 designed for single engine fighter, modernized but sharing the advantages and weaknesses of the RD-33 engines. There as a very good reason for INDIA not hoping onboard the RD-33 even though Russians could have provided full ToT. The reason is simple. Its NOT a reliable engine! It is however an engine that allows for faster take offs since it was designed for the Mig-29 for short takeoffs near the front just like the F404 but inferior in quality. If the RD-33 engine was a great base engine, DRDO would have purchased the ToT for this, instead India is going with F414 engines.
Sir ,
Su-35 is basically a highly advanced variant of Su-27.Far more mature than J-20.
yea, and thats the dead end. EVen the Flanker evolved into the T-50. J-20 would have been a better option with a lower RCS no? Your not buying it and coming up with other reasons, but even Chinese fanboys thought China was soooo advanced they don't need Su-35s and then The Su-35s were flying in China and a year later a miracle J-10 flew with an WS-10 engine with TVC even though PLAAF still doesn't buy WS-10 engines for J-10.
We are considering WS-13 and WS-10 there combo.with Thrust Vectoring so that it can perform Combra maneuver falling leaf type stuffs.As you know that.jft is made by Chengdu Air craft corporation the same company which manufacture J-10 and J-20.I don't think it made any degraded plane.b!.....
what are you trying to say?
The Mig 21 was a very good dogfighter for it's time, but cannot even be considered decent today, due to other fourth gen fighters which have fly by wire, and much better aerodynamically unstable designs taking advantage of it. Secondly, Russian engines, though very powerful, have not proven as reliable as western engines. It's one of the biggest reasons IAF wants to move towards western aircraft even though su30mki has very high performance.
Its design was successfull, but the engine eventually got old. Not enough payload, a lot of down time. However this is semi resolved in the FC-1 and J-10. Plus a better turn radius and range. However all the changes increases the cost and resources. The Fishbed was great for keeping numbers and intercepting, but aircraft are getting more reliable and expensive and need to do multi-role missions.
Sir ,
But I were you I will choose F-18 hornet or Eurofighter instead of Rafales
lol, maybe those Rafales include some ToT from France to help advance the AMCA and MCA projects. Did you think of that? America isn't going to sell off some of its strategic weapons to India.
Why are you so surprised by Iran manufacturing plz tell me?
Because they could have gone in different directions by getting help from Russia and building something like the Fc-1 or full ToT with Mig-29 or Flankers. Instead they went this route of making a twin engined LCA.
 

ThorTheRagnarok

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But America isn't buying Su-35s, and you haven't explained why China didn't buy the Su-34 for naval strike role. The J-20 and J-15 provide near the same capability of the Su-35 on paper. Unless they did not.
My dear Sir,
America buys F/A-18 version C/D and F-15 Strike eagle which are ~ to SU-35
J-20 is expensive and not ought to be a naval strike air craft.
China has J-15 for naval strike role.
Heres the equation,
SU-27->SU-30mkm->J-11->J-16->SU-35
. The reason is simple. Its NOT a reliable engine! It is however an engine that allows for faster take offs since it was designed for the Mig-29 for short takeoffs near the front just like the F404 but inferior in quality. If the RD-33 engine was a great base engine, DRDO would have purchased the ToT for this, instead India is going with F414 engines.
The reason is also so simpler than this.
You wanted to make a westren level jet!



The best thing I like about China is that it doesn't need any TOT .
It can can easily TOT of anything either the manufacturer want or not.
 

republic_roi97

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The best thing I like about China is that it doesn't need any TOT .
It can can easily TOT of anything either the manufacturer want or not.
China is not yet able to replicate a jet engine successfully. RD-33 is inferior to F-404/414 and that is a fact. If not we would've easily bought it and manufactured it in India, what would have possibly stopped us ?

You wanted to make a westren level jet!
No, the reason behind that is because we wanted to get a reliable engine. Not a single time did Tejas failed or crashed ever since its first flight till date.
 

ThorTheRagnarok

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China is not yet able to replicate a jet engine successfully.
My dear Sir
Who told you that WS-10 of J-10 WS-13 for J-31 Xian WS-15 for J-20 also many j series flankers are made by China
Reliable and also able to performing cobra maneuver leaf falling type easily.

As far as reliably is concerned so Is your mig-29,mig-29k and SU-30mki fleet is un reliable and you also crashed 8 SU-30mki so it means your is unreliable ?:troll:
 

republic_roi97

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My dear Sir
Who told you that WS-10 of J-10 WS-13 for J-31 Xian WS-15 for J-20 also many j series flankers are made by China
Reliable and also able to performing cobra maneuver leaf falling type easily.
Last time I checked WS-15 was still under development.
And sorry I was under impression that most of their jets use Russian engines and all.
As far as reliably is concerned so Is your mig-29,mig-29k and SU-30mki fleet is un reliable and you also crashed 8 SU-30mki so it means your is unreliable ?
I talked specifically about the Tejas not about any other jet as a reply to your above post. All those crashes were technical faults something like which hasn't cropped up on Tejas.
 

lcafanboy

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My dear Sir,
America buys F/A-18 version C/D and F-15 Strike eagle which are ~ to SU-35
J-20 is expensive and not ought to be a naval strike air craft.
China has J-15 for naval strike role.
Heres the equation,
SU-27->SU-30mkm->J-11->J-16->SU-35

The reason is also so simpler than this.
You wanted to make a westren level jet!



The best thing I like about China is that it doesn't need any TOT .
It can can easily TOT of anything either the manufacturer want or not.
F-18s super hornet are quite good but not as good as Rafales are in every aspect but what tilts in US favor is they have other things like awacs, Satellites, other sensors which sensor fused in single war room which makes them deadly. Similarly su-35 is much better than f-15 but again US wins it war with complete war room assets all sensor fused. You use any of these US teens on standalone basis they will be quite disappointing. That's why IAF is wary of these and had gone for Rafales and su30mkis which are better standalone platforms.

If China can afford SU-35s they can definitely afford J20s which will cost them half of su35s and money will remain in chinese economy. Why they are buying SU-35s is because they know they have a DUD 5th gen fighter which is not having an operational AESA, ew warfare suite, no sensor fusion and shitty engines. Again this flying pig is 5th gen modified copy of mig1.44 which Russia scrapped. J-15 is even worst that MIG29k s as they are unable to lift even what MIG29k can.

WRT TOT, it's not called TOT, it's called theft, daylight robbery, and Chinese are daylight robbers. We can call them monkies too copying everything, these thieves even copied Bajaj Pulsar bikes and Jaguar Q7 SUV owned by Indian companies. That's why now no one is ready to provide them any weapon systems and in fact US companies are considering pulling out of China. Even Russians are not ready to priprov anything to chinese. China wanted s117 engines for j20 but were denied since they knew they will try to copy it. China wanted to buy only a couple of SU-35 s for s117 engines but Russia insisted more and China eventually had to buy 24 SU-35 s and that too with restrictions that if they opened fighter all warranties will be void, same for S-400s china was denied 380kms long range 40N6E which india is getting, in fact India is getting S-450 with a few components from S-500s. So you see copying doesnt help. All chinese J-11,12,13,1415,etc. series fighters suck and fall from the sky due to substandard engines and lack latest warfare elements which su30mkis have. Even rafales are far ahead of J-20s and J-31s. Chinese products and weapons are all smoke no fire....:)
 

ThorTheRagnarok

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I talked specifically about the Tejas not about any other jet as a reply to your above post. All those crashes were technical faults something like which hasn't cropped up on Tejas.
You said in that post that you want a reliable engine.Rd-33 is not reliable so it crashed ....thats why Tejas has not crashed yet.......go check it out again
The crashing of a jet is not a merit you can judge the level of a jet even F-22 Raptor is also crashed which has the father of all engines.
2018-12-10-21-49-08-2735464063298858259.jpeg
 

ThorTheRagnarok

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F-18s super hornet are quite good but not as good as Rafales are in every aspect but what tilts in US favor is they have other things like awacs, Satellites, other sensors which sensor fused in single war room which makes them deadly. Similarly su-35 is much better than f-15 but again US wins it war with complete war room assets all sensor fused. You use any of these US teens on standalone basis they will be quite disappointing. That's why IAF is wary of these and had gone for Rafales and su30mkis which are better standalone platforms.

If China can afford SU-35s they can definitely afford J20s which will cost them half of su35s and money will remain in chinese economy. Why they are buying SU-35s is because they know they have a DUD 5th gen fighter which is not having an operational AESA, ew warfare suite, no sensor fusion and shitty engines. Again this flying pig is 5th gen modified copy of mig1.44 which Russia scrapped. J-15 is even worst that MIG29k s as they are unable to lift even what MIG29k can.

WRT TOT, it's not called TOT, it's called theft, daylight robbery, and Chinese are daylight robbers. We can call them monkies too copying everything, these thieves even copied Bajaj Pulsar bikes and Jaguar Q7 SUV owned by Indian companies. That's why now no one is ready to provide them any weapon systems and in fact US companies are considering pulling out of China. Even Russians are not ready to priprov anything to chinese. China wanted s117 engines for j20 but were denied since they knew they will try to copy it. China wanted to buy only a couple of SU-35 s for s117 engines but Russia insisted more and China eventually had to buy 24 SU-35 s and that too with restrictions that if they opened fighter all warranties will be void, same for S-400s china was denied 380kms long range 40N6E which india is getting, in fact India is getting S-450 with a few components from S-500s. So you see copying doesnt help. All chinese J-11,12,13,1415,etc. series fighters suck and fall from the sky due to substandard engines and lack latest warfare elements which su30mkis have. Even rafales are far ahead of J-20s and J-31s. Chinese products and weapons are all smoke no fire....:)
I will say only one thing Uncle Sam (US) made a fighter named F-22 Raptor 30 years ago and still there is no fighter aircraft in the world who can compete with this master piece so
F-15strike eagle, the most lethal interceptor ever build and F/A-18 super hornet are still far ahead of rafales,if you don't want to own this, I will don't insist cuz there is nothing changed with our owning and dis owning

As far as Chinese are concerned we also very cooked from them they made an illegal copy of jft twin seater version and designated as FTC-2000

You also have crashed more than half a squadron of SU-30mki so crashing is not a merit.

As far as S-400 abd S-500 are concerned we have requested them. To develop a system to hack their mainframes and God knows they even has already such a system.

As far as my knowledge the j-series flankers are Best J-16D is more than twice of price of J-20.
 

lcafanboy

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You said in that post that you want a reliable engine.Rd-33 is not reliable so it crashed ....thats why Tejas has not crashed yet.......go check it out again
The crashing of a jet is not a merit you can judge the level of a jet even F-22 Raptor is also crashed which has the father of all engines.
View attachment 30137
F22 crash was not due to faulty engines, but 99% chinese fighters crash are due to engine failure..
 

lcafanboy

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you also crashed 8 SU-30mki
Please count the number of hours, number of sorties, number of fighters per crash to have a clear picture. Also su30mkis have had problems with fly by wire system many of the crash were due to this problem. And at least 2 crash were due to IAF using su30mkis crazy to extreme by practicing valley diving in Arunachal Pradesh.... Not a single crash due to engine failure. Yes su30mkis have had Flame out of one engine and emergency landing but no crash due to engine failure that's a property of Chinese fighter planes....:)
 

republic_roi97

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As far as reliably is concerned so Is your mig-29,mig-29k and SU-30mki fleet is un reliable and you also crashed 8 SU-30mki so it means your is unreliable ?:troll:
You said in that post that you want a reliable engine.Rd-33 is not reliable so it crashed ....thats why Tejas has not crashed yet.......go check it out again
The crashing of a jet is not a merit you can judge the level of a jet even F-22 Raptor is also crashed which has the father of all engines.
View attachment 30137
You very well understand what I am trying to say, F-404 is a better more reliable engine, I mentioned the term "crash" not because I wished to highlight that Rd-33 is crash prone, but as a consequence of unreliability of RD-33 as compared to F-404. And to prove that I quoted the example of Tejas, that is all I said. That is the reason behind the why F-404 is on Tejas and not RD-33. Su-30MKi has a different engine, while our Mig-29UPG and Mig-29Ks have RD-33s but these aren't our main fighters.
 

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