JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 Xiaolong

[Steven Rogers]

Texas ???? what's that?

He meant Tejas.

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[no smoking]

As far I know WS-13 is a non starter. Neither JF-17 nor J-31 is to enter Chini service. They are not going to waste resources on export projects.

Well, the working on WS-13 is still on. J-31 will definitely enter service if everything goes as planned. There is no way a state-owned company can spend 10billions RMB on a weapon project without permission from PLA. The whole project won't even pass through SASAC.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Well, the working on WS-13 is still on. J-31 will definitely enter service if everything goes as planned. There is no way a state-owned company can spend 10billions RMB on a weapon project without permission from PLA. The whole project won't even pass through SASAC.

Does PLAAF&N requires J31???

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[BON PLAN]

Texas in its current configuration clearly outperforms JF 17 in all parameters. This includes HMDS, TWR, FCS, FLIR, DFBW, ITR, etc

Is it so evident? sure not .

 

[undeadmyrmidon]

Is it so evident? sure not .

tech specs for JF-17
Crew: 1
Length: 14.0 m (45.9 ft)
Wingspan: 9.45 m (including 2 wingtip missiles) (31 ft)
Height: 4.77 m (15 ft 8 in)
Wing area: 24.4 m² (263 ft²)
Empty weight: 6,411 kg (14,134 lb)
Loaded weight: 9,100 kg (20,062 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 12,700 kg (28,000 lb)
Powerplant: 1 × Klimov RD-93 or WS-13 turbofan
Dry thrust: 49.4 kN /51.2 kN (11,106 lbf / 11,510 lbf)
Thrust with afterburner: 84.4 kN/86.36 kN (18,973 lbf / 19,391 lbf)
G-limit: +8.5 g
Internal Fuel Capacity: 2300 kg (5,130 lb)
Maximum speed: Mach 1.8(1,191 knots, 2,205 km/h)
Combat radius: 1,352 km (840 mi)
Ferry range: 3,480 km (1,880 NM = 2,160 mi)
Service ceiling: 16,920 m (55,500 ft)
Thrust/weight: 0.95


tech specs for LCA Tejas (MK1)
General characteristics
Crew: 1
Length: 13.20 m (43 ft 4 in)
Wingspan: 8.20 m (26 ft 11 in)
Height: 4.40 m (14 ft 9 in)
Wing area: 38.4 m² (413 ft²)
Empty weight: 6,560 kg (14,460 lb)
Loaded weight: 10,500 kg (23,100 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 13,300 kg (29,540 lb)
Powerplant: 1 × General Electric F404-GE-IN20 turbofan
Dry thrust: 53.9 kN (11,250 lbf)
Thrust with afterburner: 85 kN (19,000 lbf)
Internal fuel capacity: 2,458 kg
External fuel capacity: 2x 1,200 litre drop tank at inboard, 1x 725 litre drop tank under fuselage
Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 (2,376+ km/h at high altitude) at 15,000 m
Range: 3,000 km (1,840 mi) without refueling
Service ceiling: 15,250 m (50,000 ft
Wing loading: 221.4 kg/m² (45.35 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 0.91
g-limits: +9/−3.5 g

Numbers speak for themselves. JF 17 = Junk Fighter x 17

 

[undeadmyrmidon]

LOL.

What is a Mig 33? Stop smoking the carpet Bro.

MiG-33 FULCRUM

In the mid-1990s the MiG-33 was the original designation for the MiG-29M. In 1996 it was reported that MAPO-MiG planned to redesignate newer versions of the MiG-29M as the MiG-33, although there will be no differences in flight hardware between the two designations.

The MiG-33 is a modernisation of the MiG-29, with upgrades in several areas. One goals of the modernisation was adding multifunctionality with further growth of air-to-air and air-to-ground capabilities with high-precision weapons. It featured considerable growth of combat range owing to an increase in the internal fuel capacity, along with better pilot-to-aircraft interface in the cockpit and introduction of other new-generation equipment.

The external changes between the MiG-33 and the MiG-29 are negligable. The MiG-33 features changes in the intakes' geometry including the removal of the upper intake louvres, enlarging inlet dimensions for higher airflow, installation of movable nets protecting the engines from the ingestion of foreign objects during take-off and landing.

The number of hard points was increased up to nine and this enables either suspension of a 4.5 ton bomb load or eight [Vympel] RVV-AE air-to-air missiles, the Russian counterpart to the AMRAAM. The MiG-33 can carry same types of missiles as the MiG-29 does, and many more. For instance, four air-to-surface missiles such as laser-guided Kh-25ML and Kh-29L, or TV-guided Kh-29T missiles or four KAB-500KR guided bombs can be carried.

The MiG-33 features more powerful, upgraded engines and the quadraple-redundant fly-by-wire flight control system. A new onboard radar with a reprogrammable signal processor provides not only a greater aerial target detection range, but is also capable of detection of sea and small-sized ground targets, ground mapping, terrain following and alerting to avoid ground obstacles.

The flight performance and the handling qualities either remain the same as those of the MiG-29 or represent an improvement, this is due to the new engine and the fly-by-wire system. The combat range saw a considerable increase owing to the enlarged fuel capacity.

For an aerial close-in engagement (five 360-degree turns, load of two medium, two short range missiles, three drop fuel tanks) the combat radius is 1,250 km. The subsonic interception mission range (M=0.85, armament of four medium range missiles, three drop fuel tanks) is 1,440 km, and for a ground target attack mission with air-to-surface missiles (load of two air-to-surface, two short range air-to-air missiles, three drop fuel tanks) the comabt radius is 1,190 km.

Product 33

The name MiG-33 was used twice. Once for a single engined light strike fighter intended to be a direct competitor of the F-16, and more recently for the heaily upgraded version of the MiG-29.

The first design of a very light new-generation fighter was prepared by Mikoyan in the early 1980s, when design work also began on the heavy fighter, the MFI (sometimes known as the 1-42). The result was 'Product 33' powered by a single RD-33 engine from the MiG-29. It was of conventional design, appearing similar to the US Lockheed Martin F-16.

Although work on Product 33 became well advanced, it was not ordered due to the air force's reorientation towards multi-role aircraft - the lightweight Product 33 could be used for close air combat only. The basic Product 33 design was offered by Mikoyan to China as the FC-1 fighter.

MiG-33 FULCRUM

Following the cancellation of U.S. and European companies’ participation in the development of the Westernized Chengdu J-7 variant known as the “Super-7”, China launched a program in 1991 to develop an indigenous evolution of this MiG-21-based design, which it designated the FC-1 (“Fighter China 1”).

To expedite its development, officials of the Chengdu Aircraft Industries Corporation (CAC) approached Mikoyan for technical support. In 1998, CATIC purchased Izd 33 design and test information from the Mikoyan design bureau, along with other research and development assistance.

 

[undeadmyrmidon]

They have Mig 29s and want to get rid of them, because of high maintenance costs. Initially they wanted western fighters but now don't have the money and cancelled their tender. The last reports were about 2nd hand Hornets, but if the costs and political proposal fits, new JF17s can be a solution too. Let's see.

A shit plane which has no credible future. Which even it's OEM won't buy! Sounds like Pakis going around with their katoras begging for money.

 

[undeadmyrmidon]

Very soon J-17 Thunder to be powered by Chinese WS-13 engine as well as Chinese improving KLJ radar. I saw in PDF forum and discussing is go on.

Those pakis dance when even 'rumors' of an 'alleged' JF 17 customer peak up.

 

[BON PLAN]

This one

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LOOOOL !

 

[BON PLAN]

MiG-33 FULCRUM

In the mid-1990s the MiG-33 was the original designation for the MiG-29M. In 1996 it was reported that MAPO-MiG planned to redesignate newer versions of the MiG-29M as the MiG-33, although there will be no differences in flight hardware between the two designations.

The MiG-33 is a modernisation of the MiG-29, with upgrades in several areas. One goals of the modernisation was adding multifunctionality with further growth of air-to-air and air-to-ground capabilities with high-precision weapons. It featured considerable growth of combat range owing to an increase in the internal fuel capacity, along with better pilot-to-aircraft interface in the cockpit and introduction of other new-generation equipment.

The external changes between the MiG-33 and the MiG-29 are negligable. The MiG-33 features changes in the intakes' geometry including the removal of the upper intake louvres, enlarging inlet dimensions for higher airflow, installation of movable nets protecting the engines from the ingestion of foreign objects during take-off and landing.

The number of hard points was increased up to nine and this enables either suspension of a 4.5 ton bomb load or eight [Vympel] RVV-AE air-to-air missiles, the Russian counterpart to the AMRAAM. The MiG-33 can carry same types of missiles as the MiG-29 does, and many more. For instance, four air-to-surface missiles such as laser-guided Kh-25ML and Kh-29L, or TV-guided Kh-29T missiles or four KAB-500KR guided bombs can be carried.

The MiG-33 features more powerful, upgraded engines and the quadraple-redundant fly-by-wire flight control system. A new onboard radar with a reprogrammable signal processor provides not only a greater aerial target detection range, but is also capable of detection of sea and small-sized ground targets, ground mapping, terrain following and alerting to avoid ground obstacles.

The flight performance and the handling qualities either remain the same as those of the MiG-29 or represent an improvement, this is due to the new engine and the fly-by-wire system. The combat range saw a considerable increase owing to the enlarged fuel capacity.

For an aerial close-in engagement (five 360-degree turns, load of two medium, two short range missiles, three drop fuel tanks) the combat radius is 1,250 km. The subsonic interception mission range (M=0.85, armament of four medium range missiles, three drop fuel tanks) is 1,440 km, and for a ground target attack mission with air-to-surface missiles (load of two air-to-surface, two short range air-to-air missiles, three drop fuel tanks) the comabt radius is 1,190 km.

Product 33

The name MiG-33 was used twice. Once for a single engined light strike fighter intended to be a direct competitor of the F-16, and more recently for the heaily upgraded version of the MiG-29.

The first design of a very light new-generation fighter was prepared by Mikoyan in the early 1980s, when design work also began on the heavy fighter, the MFI (sometimes known as the 1-42). The result was 'Product 33' powered by a single RD-33 engine from the MiG-29. It was of conventional design, appearing similar to the US Lockheed Martin F-16.

Although work on Product 33 became well advanced, it was not ordered due to the air force's reorientation towards multi-role aircraft - the lightweight Product 33 could be used for close air combat only. The basic Product 33 design was offered by Mikoyan to China as the FC-1 fighter.

MiG-33 FULCRUM

Following the cancellation of U.S. and European companies’ participation in the development of the Westernized Chengdu J-7 variant known as the “Super-7”, China launched a program in 1991 to develop an indigenous evolution of this MiG-21-based design, which it designated the FC-1 (“Fighter China 1”).

To expedite its development, officials of the Chengdu Aircraft Industries Corporation (CAC) approached Mikoyan for technical support. In 1998, CATIC purchased Izd 33 design and test information from the Mikoyan design bureau, along with other research and development assistance.

how many squads ?

ouhhhh....

No one ! it closed the debat.

 

[undeadmyrmidon]

how many squads ?

ouhhhh....

No one ! it closed the debat.

It's a precursor to the junk fighter x 17.
The JF 17 itself is debatable.

 

[sthf]

Well, the working on WS-13 is still on. J-31 will definitely enter service if everything goes as planned. There is no way a state-owned company can spend 10billions RMB on a weapon project without permission from PLA. The whole project won't even pass through SASAC.

Let's see just two prototypes since first flight in 2012 i.e. two prototypes in 6 years.

Either SAC has a magical wand that doesn't require more prototypes for testing as is the norm (even in China) or it is that the project is dead until a foreign buyer is found. You choose.

Last I checked, J-31 was an internally funded project of SAC. Feel free to correct me.

No J-31= No WS-13

 

[Steven Rogers]

LOOOOL !

Like all other chinese jets excluding J20, this one also came from Russia/USSR. Meanwhile French jets yet to get HMS, a good coverage of RWR, a fully functional aesa, a modern LDP, and an IRST. Feel free to LOL, as of today it has not been much competitive to Euro fighter typhoon.

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[BON PLAN]

Like all other chinese jets excluding J20, this one also came from Russia/USSR. Meanwhile French jets yet to get HMS, a good coverage of RWR, a fully functional aesa, a modern LDP, and an IRST. Feel free to LOL, as of today it has not been much competitive to Euro fighter typhoon.

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YOU ARE DRUNK !

HMS : it was a financial choice of french air force not to have a helmet. Until the end of this year two differents models will be on the Rafale catalogue, one already delivered and on duty.

RWR : what is SPECTRA for you? it's a nice RWR and do very very much things (during one of the last EF vs Rafale training in Wales I think, EF seen Rafale but where unable to find a fire solution.... exactly what S.PE.C.T.R.A means in french...)

Fully AESA : You are not only drunk, but also ill. Rafale is the sole european AESA operationnal plane so far (and at lest for 1.5 years, thanks to delay in Captor E.... ). It's in production until 2012 (6 years ago... so a mature product). And it use ALL the softwares developped for the PESA radar. That means it already has nearly 20 years of improvements behind it, when the non born Captor E has no feed back except trials....

Modern LDP : Damocles is a modern LDP, with the higher range of the market. But, but hasn't the definition enough to identify targets like soldiers... use now in the anti terrorsit mission.
Talios, a Pod with the range of Damocles and the definition of Sniper will be ready and delivered to french air force this year (2018)

IRST : what is OSF ?

Competitive to Euro fighter.... rendez vous in a maximum of 5 years, when the EF lines will be closed and the Rafale one (in France and in India) busy.
All the last training between EF and Rafale, in WVR and BVR were won by Rafale. At a point RAF didn't want to train against us !

So YOU ARE DEFINITIVELY NOT SERIOUS.

 

[Steven Rogers]

YOU ARE DRUNK !

HMS : it was a financial choice of french air force not to have a helmet. Until the end of this year two differents models will be on the Rafale catalogue, one already delivered and on duty.

RWR : what is SPECTRA for you? it's a nice RWR and do very very much things (during one of the last EF vs Rafale training in Wales I think, EF seen Rafale but where unable to find a fire solution.... exactly what S.PE.C.T.R.A means in french...)

Fully AESA : You are not only drunk, but also ill. Rafale is the sole european AESA operationnal plane so far (and at lest for 1.5 years, thanks to delay in Captor E.... ). It's in production until 2012 (6 years ago... so a mature product). And it use ALL the softwares developped for the PESA radar. That means it already has nearly 20 years of improvements behind it, when the non born Captor E has no feed back except trials....

Modern LDP : Damocles is a modern LDP, with the higher range of the market. But, but hasn't the definition enough to identify targets like soldiers... use now in the anti terrorsit mission.
Talios, a Pod with the range of Damocles and the definition of Sniper will be ready and delivered to french air force this year (2018)

IRST : what is OSF ?

Competitive to Euro fighter.... rendez vous in a maximum of 5 years, when the EF lines will be closed and the Rafale one (in France and in India) busy.
All the last training between EF and Rafale, in WVR and BVR were won by Rafale. At a point RAF didn't want to train against us !

So YOU ARE DEFINITIVELY NOT SERIOUS.

The deal with India actually exposed all the so called development on Rafale beating typhoon
. Typhoon already has over 500nos built how many Rafales came out of the production line. HMS, yes a choice but still don't find on Rafale, which clears states that one need to pay extra for that to some other vendor, that doesn't mean how much you have legacy when a customer air force asking you to modify the AESA radar, that again exposes that Rafales are flying with an incomplete product while Indians asked for the modification on aesa too. Again India asked upgrade in Spectra[emoji120], with not so good "RWR" coverage at current, which is only displayed to get better in f3. 3R, Damocles is even behind the Litening 3 which Indian airforce using for so long, the new Litening 4 is generation ahead of Damocles, while Litening 5 could be ahead of Talios, anyways IAF will be using Litening 4 over Damocles which itself speak for much, does OSF has an IR channel if so, why rafale is so much dependent on Damocles, THE nos speaks for itself, EFT has more success than the Rafale despite being behind in weapons capability against Rafale.

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[lcafanboy]

The deal with India actually exposed all the so called development on Rafale beating typhoon
. Typhoon already has over 500nos built how many Rafales came out of the production line.

There's a saying that too many cooks spoil the food. Typhoon is one such product made by consortium of countries with inputs from different air forces which are not even aware of modern air combat, like Spain, Italy, Germany and even Britain. Regarding numbers 500 built well this is like cooks tasting their own food but real deal is foriegn sale. How many foriegn air forces bought Typhoons apart from the number s bought by the consortium. French air force bought more than 290 Rafales alone with india buying Rafales in 3 figures. Did any of the consortium member bought Typhoons in so many numbers. Don't give numbers bought by rich middle East Arab idiot nations who have to buy junk weapons to sell oil and don't know modern air combat requirements. Give me serious buyer like IAF or Japan or south Korea who are aware of modern air combat requirements.

Even the cooks didn't liked their own food as it stinks, German air force Typhoons had holes in their wings due to quality issues and block 1 Typhoons are being sold off as scrap. Britain buying F-35s.

Rafales F3r is way ahead of Typhoons in every parameter be it lower RCS, stealth, EW suite spectra, aesa radar and weapons it carries. If Typhoons get upgraded then so do Rafales with F4.2 which will again make rafaRaf better than Typhoons. But I doubt if Typhoons will be in production by then with no buyers as even British air force wants F-35s as I said even cooks didn't liked their own food.

 

[BON PLAN]

The deal with India actually exposed all the so called development on Rafale beating typhoon
. Typhoon already has over 500nos built how many Rafales came out of the production line. HMS, yes a choice but still don't find on Rafale, which clears states that one need to pay extra for that to some other vendor, that doesn't mean how much you have legacy when a customer air force asking you to modify the AESA radar, that again exposes that Rafales are flying with an incomplete product while Indians asked for the modification on aesa too. Again India asked upgrade in Spectra[emoji120], with not so good "RWR" coverage at current, which is only displayed to get better in f3. 3R, Damocles is even behind the Litening 3 which Indian airforce using for so long, the new Litening 4 is generation ahead of Damocles, while Litening 5 could be ahead of Talios, anyways IAF will be using Litening 4 over Damocles which itself speak for much, does OSF has an IR channel if so, why rafale is so much dependent on Damocles, THE nos speaks for itself, EFT has more success than the Rafale despite being behind in weapons capability against Rafale.

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Typhoon is made by 4 country. Backlog < 740 at a max. 740/4 = 185 par country.
Rafale backlog : 180 firm from France + 45 to come + 96 from export = 321.
321 >> 185.
(and the 321 figure will be exceeded, because India will take at least 36 more, and maybe up to 167 (57 + 110), Egypt is on the verge to take 12 to 24 more, Malysia may become the 4th export customer soon, UAE, Belgium (F35 was shoot down by the hidden report about F16 upgrade), Switzerland.... Rafale will not win everywhere, but will not loose all).

To modify AESA radar?
1) Rafale is AESA equipped since 2012. What about EF? What about Gripen?
2) The modification you speak about came from 2008, during the bargaining with UAE.
The french AESA prototyp used US made T/R modules, because no european solution yet.
This modules were probably not 1st quality ones.... or deliberatly bridle. so the AESA shown "only" a 50% range increase.
UAE wanted 10% more range. So Thales, in the case of a 2008-2010 order, suggests a new liquid cooling solution so as to increase from 9.6 to 13Kw the output power of this radar with US modules.
But since 2012, with the european modules, the EASA mature Rafale radar give a 100% more range over PESA. And this is over the UAE need.

A modify RWR? No evidence of that.
But if a customer need a more powerfull product, why not (see UAE : they have the powerfull model of F16 and Mirage 2000 of the world. USA and France don't have it in their inventory. So it's not new.)

Damocles has the greater targeting and laser ranging/targeting of the world. But not the resolution so as to identify a friend soldier or a foe. Damocles was made to destroy tanks at high range.

No link between OSF and Damocles. One is mainly for AtoA the other for AtoG.

EF more success than Rafale : see on top.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

God I really hope there's a war soon. I can't wait to see the unprecedented amount of humiliation these blunders will recieve at the hands of our Flankers.

 

[BON PLAN]

God I really hope there's a war soon. I can't wait to see the unprecedented amount of humiliation these blunders will recieve at the hands of our Flankers.

Who are you talking to ?

 

[nongaddarliberal]

Who are you talking to ?

Not related to you Eurofighter vs Rafale discussion. Just to members in general.