Japan proposes joint work on Australia sub fleet: report

[Zebra]

Japan proposes joint work on Australia sub fleet: report

AFP
3 hours ago

Tokyo (AFP) - Japan is proposing jointly building Australia's new submarines, instead of exporting a new fleet, a report said Monday, after concerns in Canberra over the effect on the domestic ship-building industry.

Under the proposal, Japan's defence ministry is to cooperate with Australia in developing special steel and other materials for its new submarines, while Tokyo will be in charge of assembling them, the Mainichi Shimbun said.

The Australian side has taken "a positive stance" on the proposal, the daily said, adding that the two countries may strike a deal by the end of 2015.

Australia needs to replace its fleet of diesel and electric-powered subs, which date from the 1990s, and Japan's high-tech ship-building industry is through to be well-placed to win the contract.

But opposition politicians and industry groups in Australia protest that losing the contract could deal a potentially fatal blow to naval shipbuilding at home, with a knock-on effect for associated industries.

However, critics point out that Japan may be able to supply the fleet for as little as half of the cost of making it at home.

Japan is on a drive to promote its manufacturing industries abroad, with Prime Minister Shinzo Abe touring the world as salesman-in-chief.

Abe has argued that Japan must play a bigger role on the global stage and has pushed to loosen post-World War II restrictions on when its well-equipped armed forces can act.

He has also relaxed a self-imposed ban on weapons exports, paving the way for the possible deal with Australia.

Immediate confirmation of the report was not available.

 

[Zebra]

Japan proposes joint work on Australia submarine fleet: Report - The Economic Times


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http://www.brahmand.com/news/Japan-proposes-joint-work-on-Australia-sub-fleet-report/13351/1/13.html

 

[apple]

Haven't actually seen anything on this in the Australian media yet. But, there are certainly people in Australia who want the boats to be fully manufactured in Australia and even this, Japanese, proposal wont be enough to satisfy them.

 

[Otm Shank2]

What's the options? Could Aussies build as good subs as Japanese would provide or would they buy from a western nation?

 

[apple]

What's the options? Could Aussies build as good subs as Japanese would provide or would they buy from a western nation?

Would seem we are going Japanese i.e. we've signed some contract with them. Japan is Western.

From what I understand the options are;
A) Buy, fully, Japanese made subs which should be the cheapest (in regards to cash spent) option for the government.
B) Entirely make a new "Super Collins" class of subs in Australian shipyards. More expensive than option A but all the cash for the project stays in Australia.
C) Jointly manufacture a totally new class of subs partly in Japan, partly in Oz.

Australian submarine manufacturing is a bit of a controversial subject. From what I understand, the RAN was very happy with the Collins class and wasn't too upset with the time it took to manufacture them and get them operational. But, the project took forever and we had quite a few (4-5???) different govts. as the construction and development of the class was conducted. Each new govt attacked the previous govt for the "failures" of the Collins's and the press lapped it up. As I've said a few different times on this board, there is going to be a submarine based story, every few months, in the Australian press for the next decade+

 

[Otm Shank2]

Would seem we are going Japanese i.e. we've signed some contract with them. Japan is Western.

From what I understand the options are;
A) Buy, fully, Japanese made subs which should be the cheapest (in regards to cash spent) option for the government.
B) Entirely make a new "Super Collins" class of subs in Australian shipyards. More expensive than option A but all the cash for the project stays in Australia.
C) Jointly manufacture a totally new class of subs partly in Japan, partly in Oz.

Australian submarine manufacturing is a bit of a controversial subject. From what I understand, the RAN was very happy with the Collins class and wasn't too upset with the time it took to manufacture them and get them operational. But, the project took forever and we had quite a few (4-5???) different govts. as the construction and development of the class was conducted. Each new govt attacked the previous govt for the "failures" of the Collins's and the press lapped it up. As I've said a few different times on this board, there is going to be a submarine based story, every few months, in the Australian press for the next decade+

I'm impressed if Australia at least jointly manufactures the subs. It could inspire canada to pursue the same path especially after the brits sold us subpar subs in the 90s that killed Canadian sailors. :-(

I agree Japan is western geopoliticaly and heavily western in pop culture but only a few decades ago Japanese were tiny yellow men with giant teeth ready to overrun anglo Asia you might disagree or not but not really arguing the point just my perception. My real point is kudos to Australia, Us here in canada can learn from you guys. After allowing the avro arrow be undermined we should be as smart as our Australian Friends.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

India should also get involved if offered.

 

[apple]

I'm impressed if Australia at least jointly manufactures the subs. It could inspire canada to pursue the same path especially after the brits sold us subpar subs in the 90s that killed Canadian sailors. :-(

I agree Japan is western geopoliticaly and heavily western in pop culture but only a few decades ago Japanese were tiny yellow men with giant teeth ready to overrun anglo Asia you might disagree or not but not really arguing the point just my perception. My real point is kudos to Australia, Us here in canada can learn from you guys. After allowing the avro arrow be undermined we should be as smart as our Australian Friends.

The Collins class were completed massively late and well over budget. The estimated budget for their replacement varies between 10 and 80 billion AUD. Can understand why Canada wouldn't want to get involved with such an expensive project.

India should also get involved if offered.

Aren't India's long range submarines Russian nuclear powered submarines?

Neither Australia, nor Japan, is interested in nuclear. Apart for logistical (and political) problems with nuclear power, from what I understand nuclear powered submarines are inherently noisy. While it doesn't get openly mentioned much, both Australia and Japan and interested in submarines to combat Chinese submarines and (I'm not a submarine expert) for what I understand in sub vs. sub combat noise is all important.

 

[pmaitra]

Are the Aussies interested in the new Lithium ion battery operated diesel electric submarines that Japan has developed? I sure like the idea of that sub. Awaiting further details, and the OP article does not reveal much.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

The Collins class were completed massively late and well over budget. The estimated budget for their replacement varies between 10 and 80 billion AUD. Can understand why Canada wouldn't want to get involved with such an expensive project.



Aren't India's long range submarines Russian nuclear powered submarines?

Neither Australia, nor Japan, is interested in nuclear. Apart for logistical (and political) problems with nuclear power, from what I understand nuclear powered submarines are inherently noisy. While it doesn't get openly mentioned much, both Australia and Japan and interested in submarines to combat Chinese submarines and (I'm not a submarine expert) for what I understand in sub vs. sub combat noise is all important.

Akula (2) are leased from Russia and India has it's own indigenous submarines with arihant being the first. Russian nuclear submarines intitially focused on speed and did not concern themselves with the noise. The second generation nuclear submarines focused more on reducing noise. The Chinese submarines I am guessing win the prize in the noise department where they are still about thirty years behind us and russian subs.A lot can learned if three countries (japan,Australia,india)work together against the same common threat -Chinese submarines.

 

[Razor]

Would seem we are going Japanese i.e. we've signed some contract with them. Japan is Western.

From what I understand the options are;
A) Buy, fully, Japanese made subs which should be the cheapest (in regards to cash spent) option for the government.
B) Entirely make a new "Super Collins" class of subs in Australian shipyards. More expensive than option A but all the cash for the project stays in Australia.
C) Jointly manufacture a totally new class of subs partly in Japan, partly in Oz.

Australian submarine manufacturing is a bit of a controversial subject. From what I understand, the RAN was very happy with the Collins class and wasn't too upset with the time it took to manufacture them and get them operational. But, the project took forever and we had quite a few (4-5???) different govts. as the construction and development of the class was conducted. Each new govt attacked the previous govt for the "failures" of the Collins's and the press lapped it up. As I've said a few different times on this board, there is going to be a submarine based story, every few months, in the Australian press for the next decade+

I'm impressed if Australia at least jointly manufactures the subs. It could inspire canada to pursue the same path especially after the brits sold us subpar subs in the 90s that killed Canadian sailors. :-(

I agree Japan is western geopoliticaly and heavily western in pop culture but only a few decades ago Japanese were tiny yellow men with giant teeth ready to overrun anglo Asia you might disagree or not but not really arguing the point just my perception. My real point is kudos to Australia, Us here in canada can learn from you guys. After allowing the avro arrow be undermined we should be as smart as our Australian Friends.

Sorry for the quick OT, but Japan is Western

Geography= No (Land of rising Sun, one of the Eastern most nations)
Ethnics = No (98% Yamato ethnic group, rest mostly Chinese and Koreans)
Language= No (100% Nihongo; Script= kanji with added kana.)
Culture= No
Religion= No (around 1% xtian)

Japan aligns with the usa (because of regional security threats and also well, because it has the largest collection of US troops outside the US-- so doesn't really have a choice), but that doesn't mean it is Western.

If still in doubt try asking a Japanese whether he thinks japan is western

It is just arrogance or ignorance on your part to proclaim that Japan is Western.

---------

On topic.

Japan has a well developed shipbuilding industry. And it needs to further strengthen its naval capabilities including naval shipbuilding.
It is an eventuality that Japan will have to have a strong Navy. Japan doesn't have any resources (other than human). So a strong Navy is critical for Japan. And lets face it, the USA is not going to be around forever, to protect Japan from the obvious threat in the neighbourhood and to give Japan leverage in international relations and negotiations.

 

[Otm Shank2]

Razor

I agree that the Japanese is culturally Eastern at it's core but geopolitically, as in they were nuked twice and had to lay down their sovereignty to America to survive no different than India did to survive British Imperialism and in pop culture it is Western no different than the multiple corporate/consumerist things from entertainment to retail products and fashion permeates through India.

 

[apple]

Akula (2) are leased from Russia and India has it's own indigenous submarines with arihant being the first. Russian nuclear submarines intitially focused on speed and did not concern themselves with the noise. The second generation nuclear submarines focused more on reducing noise. The Chinese submarines I am guessing win the prize in the noise department where they are still about thirty years behind us and russian subs.A lot can learned if three countries (japan,Australia,india)work together against the same common threat -Chinese submarines.

Wiki tells me both Akula and Arihant classes are nuclear powered. And Arihant is a ballistic missile submarine, which is a different thing altogether.

Submarine technology is very sensitive stuff. I know, for example, that we can't sell the Collins as they utilise our partner's classified technology. If you not involved with the development of the project, you're not getting access to it's technology. The Indian Navy seems to have gone in a different direction rather than pursuing long range, non nuclear, quiet submarines.

Can't imagine the Indian govt would be very happy "ponying up" 10+ billion dollars to buy into a project that the Indian Navy isn't that interested in.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

@apple

Japanese are going to assist in the Collins project or is this going to something completely
Different?

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Wiki tells me both Akula and Arihant classes are nuclear powered. And Arihant is a ballistic missile submarine, which is a different thing altogether.

Submarine technology is very sensitive stuff. I know, for example, that we can't sell the Collins as they utilise our partner's classified technology. If you not involved with the development of the project, you're not getting access to it's technology. The Indian Navy seems to have gone in a different direction rather than pursuing long range, non nuclear, quiet submarines.

Can't imagine the Indian govt would be very happening "ponying up" 10+ billion dollars to buy into a project that the Indian Navy isn't that interested in.

Indians have scorpene; which is an ongoing saga.

 

[apple]

@apple

Japanese are going to assist in the Collins project or is this going to something completely
Different?

No, they wont be making any more Collins, it will be something new. Well new for Australia, we might just end up buying Soryu's/ something else entirely Japanese.

 

[Razor]

OT warning.

Razor

I agree that the Japanese is culturally Eastern at it's core but geopolitically, as in they were nuked twice and had to lay down their sovereignty to America to survive no different than India did to survive British Imperialism and in pop culture it is Western no different than the multiple corporate/consumerist things from entertainment to retail products and fashion permeates through India.

1. "sovereignty to America": It is a two-way road.
America: Positive= Project power into region. Significant presence in foreign relations equations of nearby nations.
Negative= Tax payer money goes for protection of another country and its interest.
Net= Gain for America govt.

Japan: Positive: Free ride on US security assurance
Negative: No real freedom in decision making. (For eg: Before the Ukr debacle Abe was cozying upto Putin for 2 reasons: 1. End Kuril Island disputes, which Russia also wanted to end 2. Common threat in the region aka China. But as soon as Ukr happened poor japan had to abandon its efforts to strengthen realtions w/ Russia, coz of US pressure. And thus Japan is forced to act against its own interest, implies no real freedom of making decisions.)

2. "pop-culture": Japanese culture is well, Japanese. But of course in this age mixture of cultures seems inevitable. And therefore you'll see massive follwing for anime and manga in the West, just as there is massive following for whatever you were talking about afaik India is concerned. But the core culture is Japanese and that was my point.

Anyway I think I'll stop with this, as my point is pretty clear. Rest up to you.
arigato gozaimasu. ja mata ne.

 

[pmaitra]

1. "sovereignty to America": It is a two-way road.
America: Positive= Project power into region. Significant presence in foreign relations equations of nearby nations.
Negative= Tax payer money goes for protection of another country and it's interest.
Net= Gain for America govt.

Japan: Positive: Free ride on US security assurance
Negative: No real freedom in decision making. (For eg: Before the Ukr debacle Abe was cozying upto Putin for 2 reasons: 1. End Kuril Island disputes, which Russia also wanted to end 2. Common threat in the region aka China. But as soon as Ukr happened poor japan had to abandon its efforts to strengthen realtions w/ Russia, coz of US pressure. And thus Japan is forced to act against its own interest, implies no real freedom of making decisions.)

2. "pop-culture": Japanese culture is well, Japanese. But of course in this age mixture of cultures seems inevitable. And therefore you'll see massive follwing for anime and manga in the West, just as there is massive following for whatever you were talking about afaik India is concerned. But the core culture is Japanese and that was my point.

Anyway I think I'll stop with this, as my point is pretty clear. Rest up to you.
arigato gozaimasu. ja mata ne.

I am also interested in discussing the points you made. Perhaps we should have a dedicated thread on Japan's foreign policy?

 

[pmaitra]

@Razor, done as requested: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indo-pacific-east-asia/66099-foreign-policy-japan.html

Also, @Otm Shank2 might be interested.