J20 Stealth Fighter

[J20!]

No, Russia just playing its cards, but there are people in Russia that understand China is a threat to Russia, and the Chinese dislike Russian imperialism as the European one, basically Russia was the closest imperialism they know coming from Europe, they are no friends because they have a border dispute and China claims Siberia and the fAr east of Russia were Chinese time will show but is a matter of time, but I will tell you the Americans and Russians are indeed friends despite they look they are not

Russians and Americans are friends allied against "galactic empire China"? I would kindly ask that you take your a-historic geopolitical fantasies elsewhere.

 

[Alien_cat26]

Russians and Americans are friends allied against "galactic empire China"? I would kindly ask that you take your a-historic geopolitical fantasies elsewhere.

He lives in his own dimensional universe... Now he can represent the ideas of any country in the dimensional universe.

 

[MiG-29SMT]

Russians and Americans are friends allied against "galactic empire China"? I would kindly ask that you take your a-historic geopolitical fantasies elsewhere.

you do not know history niether understand geopolitics.

Russia tolerates Chinese imperialism as long it is directed to the south mainly south east asia aka Vietnam, Taiwan or even India.

The west tolerates a weaker Russia as long as China never gets its border near poland got it do you remember the Mongols?


Europe never will tolarate a weak Russia that fall to the Chinese and puts the Chinese border near Poland or Rumania.

Israel never will allow China near Syria.

when you understand that you will understand most what Russia wants is China directing its forces to south east Asia never to the Khazakhastan Area or Siberia.


Siberia is underpopulated only 30 million people in an area that is 1.5 the area of the USA, but has the riches China needs.

Hypocrites or naive people like you claim China is a cute panda bear specially your fat emperor a hypocrite that threatens Taiwan.

However Australia, Japan, Taiwan understand your cute panda bear is a Dragon and do not want to live under the boot of it.

History is complex people like you do not understand it, but history shows the Panda communist bear likes to torture and violate rights and its arming to the teeth to do it AKA J-20 aircraft carriers or DF-31

 

[MiG-29SMT]

He lives in his own dimensional universe... Now he can represent the ideas of any country in the dimensional universe.

change your avatar of a cute cat to one of the organ harvesting like the Chinese communist party does

 

[J20!]

you do not know history niether understand geopolitics.

Russia tolerates Chinese imperialism as long it is directed to the south mainly south east asia aka Vietnam, Taiwan or even India.

The west tolerates a weaker Russia as long as China never gets its border near poland got it do you remember the Mongols?


Europe never will tolarate a weak Russia that fall to the Chinese and puts the Chinese border near Poland or Rumania.

Israel never will allow China near Syria.

when you understand that you will understand most what Russia wants is China directing its forces to south east Asia never to the Khazakhastan Area or Siberia.


Siberia is underpopulated only 30 million people in an area that is 1.5 the area of the USA, but has the riches China needs.

Hypocrites or naive people like you claim China is a cute panda bear specially your fat emperor a hypocrite that threatens Taiwan.

However Australia, Japan, Taiwan understand your cute panda bear is a Dragon and do not want to live under the boot of it.

History is complex people like you do not understand it, but history shows the Panda communist bear likes to torture and violate rights and its arming to the teeth to do it AKA J-20 aircraft carriers or DF-31

The PRC and Russia settled their border disputes years ago. And there is NO indication that China wishes to "take back Siberia" or whatever nonsense you're imagining.

You keep using the word "imperialism" very candidly. Imperialism was the British Empire invading and setting up forces and allocating themselves land and resources in what are now more than 100 countries.

Imperialism was IMPERIAL Japan murdering their way through Korea, China, what is now the Phillipines, the for Ryuku Kingdom, Vietnam, Indonesia, all the way to "British" India to militarily secure an actual Empire.

Imperialism was The more than a billion Indians (and what are now Pakistanis and Bangladeshi) dead UNDER centuries long British (EIC) subjugation.

Imperialism was the subjugation of the Philipines, Guam, Korea, SEA, Japan, Latin America, Africa, Middle East and even some European states through the establishment of a Succession of brutal dictatorships through coups and military action to secure AMERICAN state and corporate interests since the 1800's. America literally Still HAS COLONIES in Guam, some Pacific Island states and Puerto Rico.

To this day small European countries like France dictate the economic future of "France-Afrique" economies DIRECTLY THROUGH CONTROLLING THEIR CURRENCIES, SOVEREIGN WEALTH FUNDS" via MILITARY INTERVENTION AND CLANDESTINE OVERTHROWS of undesirable leaders.

So please sir, read a history book or 2, stop fellating the Europeans and Americans responsible for the largest, FORCEFUL transfers of wealth from the global south to their own economies and get off your knees. Even the much maligned Stalin and Mao weren't responsible for as many murders as your Colonial friends.

If you think China asserting its precolonial territorial claims against European and American boundaries set by some white or Japanese guy twirling his mustache a hundred years ago is "imperialist", YOU don't know history.

This is the J20 thread. If you wish to suck the "freedom loving" Europeans and Americans off, do it elsewhere.

 

[MiG-29SMT]

The PRC and Russia settled their border disputes years ago. And there is NO indication that China wishes to "take back Siberia" or whatever nonsense you're imagining.

You keep using the word "imperialism" very candidly. Imperialism was the British Empire invading and setting up forces and allocating themselves land and resources in what are now more than 100 countries.

Imperialism was IMPERIAL Japan murdering their way through Korea, China, what is now the Phillipines, the for Ryuku Kingdom, Vietnam, Indonesia, all the way to "British" India to militarily secure an actual Empire.

Imperialism was The more than a billion Indians (and what are now Pakistanis and Bangladeshi) dead UNDER centuries long British (EIC) subjugation.

Imperialism was the subjugation of the Philipines, Guam, Korea, SEA, Japan, Latin America, Africa, Middle East and even some European states through the establishment of a Succession of brutal dictatorships through coups and military action to secure AMERICAN state and corporate interests since the 1800's. America literally Still HAS COLONIES in Guam, some Pacific Island states and Puerto Rico.

To this day small European countries like France dictate the economic future of "France-Afrique" economies DIRECTLY THROUGH CONTROLLING THEIR CURRENCIES, SOVEREIGN WEALTH FUNDS" via MILITARY INTERVENTION AND CLANDESTINE OVERTHROWS of undesirable leaders.

So please sir, read a history book or 2, stop fellating the Europeans and Americans responsible for the largest, FORCEFUL transfers of wealth from the global south to their own economies and get off your knees. Even the much maligned Stalin and Mao weren't responsible for as many murders as your Colonial friends.

If you think China asserting its precolonial territorial claims against European and American boundaries set by some white or Japanese guy twirling his mustache a hundred years ago is "imperialist", YOU don't know history.

This is the J20 thread. If you wish to suck the "freedom loving" Europeans and Americans off, do it elsewhere.

you are the typical hypocrite that claims China is a cute panda bear, loving peace and just have conflicts with India , Vietnam, and the USSR just for the sake of peace.

look take your Chinese communist party propaganda to your bosses in China, China is an imperialist nation, Africans attest to that so your armament policies and borders dispues remember to Hitler in 1938, Taiwan is the new Sudetenland, and J-20 the new Zero, only fools can think China is a free loving nation

 

[J20!]

you are the typical hypocrite that claims China is a cute panda bear, loving peace and just have conflicts with India , Vietnam, and the USSR just for the sake of peace.

look take your Chinese communist party propaganda to your bosses in China, China is an imperialist nation, Africans attest to that so your armament policies and borders dispues remember to Hitler in 1938, Taiwan is the new Sudeten land, and J-20 the new Zero, only fools can think China is a free loving nation

Show me where I said China was a cute panda bear?

The USSR doesn't exist, Russia has no border disputes with China and India and Vietnams territorial disputes date back to colonial Era imposition by the British and French.

Like I said. Start a thread somewhere else on your revisionist "New Chinese Empire" rubbish elsewhere and I'll crush each of your silly points there. This is the J20 thread.

 

[MiG-29SMT]

Show me where I said China was a cute panda bear?

Like I said. Start a thread somewhere else on your revisionist "New Chinese Empire" rubbish elsewhere. This is the J20 thread.

and what is the purpose of J-20 why you do not enlight Indians about J-20 as an imperial weapon to steal Indian Land or Taiwanese independece? hypocrite J-20 is a weapon, to kill people to threat nations

 

[Love Charger]

What you guys are even discussing , every country has territorial ambition .
India for the matter , wishes to conquer Bangladesh , parts of Nepal and well parts of Pakistan till indus river .
So China also has some ambitions
Even Mexico won't say no , if it's offered Texas and Arizona by the amrika.

 

[J20!]

and what is the purpose of J-20 why you do not enlight Indians about J-20 as an imperial weapon to steal Indian Land or Taiwanese independece? hypocrite J-20 is a weapon, to kill people to threat nations

Colonial mindset at its best. Why aren't you calling the F35 an "imperial weapon"?

There are NO j20s deployed off the coast of the US or UK. There are no J20s flying "freedom of navigation flights" over the Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico. There has never been a Chinese CSG sailing off the coast of San Francisco.

F35s and drones are bombing sheep herders in Africa and the Middle East daily yet you don't call them "imperialist weapons". You like to call Chinese brainwashed, but you are conditioned to view wester imperialism as "Freedom and Democracy", yet you call the J20 an "imperialist weapon".

Pray tell, how may J20s are deployed in Syria or Baghdad dropping munitions on civilians or in the Black Sea to threaten Russia?

There are USAF, USN, and USMC F35s flying training missions over the yellow sea, EAST China Sea and South China Sea sometimes to as close as 100nm off China's coast. Yet the Mexican thinks J20 is an "Impreial weapon".

J20 is a counter to primarily American power projection within the first island Chain. Ie less Tha 1000nm from China's economic and Industrial hubs. What should the PLA do, bow and scrape to our IMPERIAL American Masters like Mexico does?

 

[scatterStorm]

Maiden flight of prototype 2031:
View attachment 117658

Aha! its good to see some aviation updates. A two seater finally.

Questions

1. Is it a trainer variant with combat capabilities?
2. Usually inclusion of a twin seat incurs fuel penalties, or structural lengthen changes, can you show some schematics of the new variant where the fuel is stored?
3. Is the twin seater variant more focused towards AEW&C & Battle Management?
4. Does it comes with the enhanced WS-10 engine considering its improves its fairly average T/W performance of early WS-10s which will solve its super-cruising problem?
5. How is the WS-15 development going on?
6. If the former question is true, what is the Taiwan invasion strategy for the new J20 variant?

 

[Alien_cat26]

His tone has surpassed the way American neighbors should have..
This Mexican considers himself an aviation expert and wasted his obsession with China's CCP.

 

[J20!]

Aha! its good to see some aviation updates. A two seater finally.

Questions

1. Is it a trainer variant with combat capabilities?
2. Usually inclusion of a twin seat incurs fuel penalties, or structural lengthen changes, can you show some schematics of the new variant where the fuel is stored?
3. Is the twin seater variant more focused towards AEW&C & Battle Management?
4. Does it comes with the enhanced WS-10 engine considering its improves its fairly average T/W performance of early WS-10s which will solve its super-cruising problem?
5. How is the WS-15 development going on?
6. If the former question is true, what is the Taiwan invasion strategy for the new J20 variant?

ANSWERS (to the best of my knowledge)

1. It is easier and cheaper to conduct pilot training on dedicated new generation trainers such as the L15 and JL9 in China's case and Boeings new supersonic trainer in the USAFs case.

What I believe the twin seat J20S(?) brings to the table for the PLAAF is first and foremost is the forward air control mission.

An added advantage of 5th gens demonstrated in declassified accounts of Red Flag exercises hosted by the USAF is the F35s and to a lesser degree the F22s ability to passively (0 signature) vector other 5 th gens and 4th gens away from hazardous airspace targeted by the red (aggressor team) and make the best use of air assets in the battlespace while placing them in the least danger of interception by the enemy and remaining undetected themselves. Altogether an invaluable asset in congested Electromagenticly dense contested airspace with dozens or 100+ enemy and friendly assets.

Many have pointed to the two seater variant
as a sign of deficient levels of automation and AI application on the J20 (which may be true, I honestly don't know). BUUUUT. MY contention is:

Even if the J20s automation (level of pilot workload) is higher than the F35 (unlikely but possible), equal to the F35(probable), or less than the F35(more likely); the addition of a second pilot for vectoring of other air assets in the battlespace reduces pilot workload to levels lower than other single seat 5th gens (F22, F35 and SU57).

Which is the main reason I believe the IAF included a requirement for a twin seat SU57 for their suspended (or dead) FGFA programme.

Other more novel missions that still apply the same are command and control of friendly unmanned reconnaissance or strike platforms (HALE, MALE and next gen stealthy drones like the GJ11 or the mysterious aircraft identified by satellite on CAAC grounds recently) passively within congested airspace. Again emphasis being on Stealth as these platforms can be commanded or controlled via vulnerable, large wing AEW&C platforms like the KJ2000, KJ200 and KJ500 or smaller 4+ gen fighter types like the J16.

I emphasize use of manned platforms for C&C of unmanned aerial vehicles because even if they can be controlled by ground stations via satellite links; those satellite data links will probably be jammed or degraded in actual EMI heavy combat.

The J20S (twin seat) provides a platform to allow C&C capability with a lower chance of enemy interception due to its inherently lower IR and Radar signature.

Again, the same function will be provided to the USAF via the single seat F35 for comms and reconnaissance nodes like the new RQ180 stealth UAV. BUT again, I believe a 2 seat platform allows for more capacity for this function than a single seat platform.

Just as for example the Growler in USN service uses the twin seat variant of the F/A18 (F) as base platform as it provides more capacity for collection and analysis of electronic signatures and pursuit of Jamming targets than a single seat would.

Another function that may be performed by the J20S more effeciently than a single seat J20A. Signals intelligence and jamming, but again in a low signature platform as opposed to the 4th gen F/A18G.

2. I don't have any schematics as there is literally only 1 video and 2 pics of the J20s prototype (2031).

Usually twin seats have a more pronounced fuselage aft of the cockpit to accommodate avionics displaced by the second seat to maintain the same fuel capacity as a single seater. But we'll know more as better imagery of the J20s is released.

3. See answer in 1.

4. We haven't had clear imagery of the engines installed. It might revert to the AL31s used in the first J20 prototypes and LRIP airframes, or the WS10Cs on production airframe produced post 2019, or (highly unlikely) WS15s. Don't want to speculate.

5. I don't know for sure. We've seen blurry pics of a purported J20 prototype with 1 WS15 installed for testing but that has not been verified yet. We've seen rumors from reliable sources claiming a J20 prototype has been observed over Chengdu flying high energy maneuvers on 2 WS15s (still not verified...

Soooo, I don't know and wouldn't want to speculate.

6. In the Taiwan scenario, I believe the PLAAFs precious few (for now) J20s would be prioritized for a contingency where US assets would intervene. Or they'd be used to neuter the Republic of China Airforces meger (as compared to the numbers available to the PLAAF) assets at the very onset of hostilities.

Either way the platform offers large fuel and thus range capabilities which would enhance loiter time which would contribute to its availability serve in the functions detailed at answer 1. Facilitating better use of PLAAF 4th and 4+ gen aircraft in the TW strait and around the island.

That's all my opinion mate. I can't claim to know what the PLAAF brass have planned for actual operations, but that's my best guess and the opinions of those I highly rate amongst the PLA watcher community.

Sorry for the very long post.

 

[scatterStorm]

ANSWERS (to the best of my knowledge)

1. It is easier and cheaper to conduct pilot training on dedicated new generation trainers such as the L15 and JL9 in China's case and Boeings new supersonic trainer in the USAFs case.

What I believe the twin seat J20S(?) brings to the table for the PLAAF is first and foremost is the forward air control mission.

An added advantage of 5th gens demonstrated in declassified accounts of Red Flag exercises hosted by the USAF is the F35s and to a lesser degree the F22s ability to passively (0 signature) vector other 5 th gens and 4th gens away from hazardous airspace targeted by the red (aggressor team) and make the best use of air assets in the battlespace while placing them in the least danger of interception by the enemy and remaining undetected themselves. Altogether an invaluable asset in congested Electromagenticly dense contested airspace with dozens or 100+ enemy and friendly assets.

Many have pointed to the two seater variant
as a sign of deficient levels of automation and AI application on the J20 (which may be true, I honestly don't know). BUUUUT. MY contention is:

Even if the J20s automation (level of pilot workload) is higher than the F35 (unlikely but possible), equal to the F35(probable), or less than the F35(more likely); the addition of a second pilot for vectoring of other air assets in the battlespace reduces pilot workload to levels lower than other single seat 5th gens (F22, F35 and SU57).

Which is the main reason I believe the IAF included a requirement for a twin seat SU57 for their suspended (or dead) FGFA programme.

Other more novel missions that still apply the same are command and control of friendly unmanned reconnaissance or strike platforms (HALE, MALE and next gen stealthy drones like the GJ11 or the mysterious aircraft identified by satellite on CAAC grounds recently) passively within congested airspace. Again emphasis being on Stealth as these platforms can be commanded or controlled via vulnerable, large wing AEW&C platforms like the KJ2000, KJ200 and KJ500 or smaller 4+ gen fighter types like the J16.

I emphasize use of manned platforms for C&C of unmanned aerial vehicles because even if they can be controlled by ground stations via satellite links; those satellite data links will probably be jammed or degraded in actual EMI heavy combat.

The J20S (twin seat) provides a platform to allow C&C capability with a lower chance of enemy interception due to its inherently lower IR and Radar signature.

Again, the same function will be provided to the USAF via the single seat F35 for comms and reconnaissance nodes like the new RQ180 stealth UAV. BUT again, I believe a 2 seat platform allows for more capacity for this function than a single seat platform.

Just as for example the Growler in USN service uses the twin seat variant of the F/A18 (F) as base platform as it provides more capacity for collection and analysis of electronic signatures and pursuit of Jamming targets than a single seat would.

Another function that may be performed by the J20S more effeciently than a single seat J20A. Signals intelligence and jamming, but again in a low signature platform as opposed to the 4th gen F/A18G.

2. I don't have any schematics as there is literally only 1 video and 2 pics of the J20s prototype (2031).

Usually twin seats have a more pronounced fuselage aft of the cockpit to accommodate avionics displaced by the second seat to maintain the same fuel capacity as a single seater. But we'll know more as better imagery of the J20s is released.

3. See answer in 1.

4. We haven't had clear imagery of the engines installed. It might revert to the AL31s used in the first J20 prototypes and LRIP airframes, or the WS10Cs on production airframe produced post 2019, or (highly unlikely) WS15s. Don't want to speculate.

5. I don't know for sure. We've seen blurry pics of a purported J20 prototype with 1 WS15 installed for testing but that has not been verified yet. We've seen rumors from reliable sources claiming a J20 prototype has been observed over Chengdu flying high energy maneuvers on 2 WS15s (still not verified...

Soooo, I don't know and wouldn't want to speculate.

6. In the Taiwan scenario, I believe the PLAAFs precious few (for now) J20s would be prioritized for a contingency where US assets would intervene. Or they'd be used to neuter the Republic of China Airforces meger (as compared to the numbers available to the PLAAF) assets at the very onset of hostilities.

Either way the platform offers large fuel and thus range capabilities which would enhance loiter time which would contribute to its availability serve in the functions detailed at answer 1. Facilitating better use of PLAAF 4th and 4+ gen aircraft in the TW strait and around the island.

That's all my opinion mate. I can't claim to know what the PLAAF brass have planned for actual operations, but that's my best guess and the opinions of those I highly rate amongst the PLA watcher community.

Sorry for the very long post.

1. Agreed.
2. I think a slight fuel penalty would incur, considering you have to account for COM changes.
3. Agreed, the newer variant would be used as a AEW&C, BMs for the strike package. Especially the drones.
4. Yes engines have been an issue, as with the SU57. I think T/W wasn't a factor for this jet. Continuous upgradation of engine is detrimental in long run, its much better to go with the first engines with enhanced configuration if possible. So super-cruising at supersonic speeds is an issue.
5. Its safe to assume its still on drawing boards I guess.
6. I think ballistic and cruise missiles would saturate the Taiwanese Mainland. Then the J20s would scout for air-borne threats and would be earlier in the airspace and try to neutralize them using PL15s and share data with upcoming waves of air-brigades of J10s, J11s, J16s comprising more the there air-assault brigades. I am assuming drones are still a couple of years away.

Thanks, appreciate your time to write.

 

[MiG-29SMT]

What you guys are even discussing , every country has territorial ambition .
India for the matter , wishes to conquer Bangladesh , parts of Nepal and well parts of Pakistan till indus river .
So China also has some ambitions
Even Mexico won't say no , if it's offered Texas and Arizona by the amrika.

History is much more complex than that see some Russian Analysis
Правда ли, что Китай захватит Сибирь и Дальний Восток?
В последнее время в российском обществе возникают опасения относительно международных отношений России и Китая. Обсуждения часто начинаются с банального недоумения дешевизной продаваемых Россией ресурсов Китаю и заканчиваются предположениями о претензиях Китая к российским территориям в Сибири и на Дальнем Востоке.
Is it true that China will invade Siberia and the Far East?
In recent years, Russian society has been raising concerns about international relations between Russia and China. Discussions often begin with the banal bewilderment of the cheapness of the resources Russia is selling to China and end with speculations about China's claims to Russian territories in Siberia and the Far East.

Правда ли, что Китай захватит Сибирь и Дальний Восток? — Елизавета Громкова на vc.ru

В последнее время в российском обществе возникают опасения относительно международных отношений России и Китая. Обсуждения часто начинаются с банального недоумения дешевизной продаваемых Россией ресурсов Китаю и заканчиваются предположениями о претензиях Китая к российским территориям в Сибири и...

vc.ru

This is the Russian view about the Chinese threat.

Chinese imperialism does exist and it is the reason for J-20, it is not a static toy, it isa policy of expansion, in fact J-20s or J-16s buzzing Taiwan are clear examples of a kind of 1938 gathering of the Chinese people, same are the maritime claims, if uncheck prepare in India, China will try to over come you, and as long as J-20 is built it is a weapon of expansion

 

[MiG-29SMT]

Colonial mindset at its best. Why aren't you calling the F35 an "imperial weapon"?

There are NO j20s deployed off the coast of the US or UK. There are no J20s flying "freedom of navigation flights" over the Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico. There has never been a Chinese CSG sailing off the coast of San Francisco.

F35s and drones are bombing sheep herders in Africa and the Middle East daily yet you don't call them "imperialist weapons". You like to call Chinese brainwashed, but you are conditioned to view wester imperialism as "Freedom and Democracy", yet you call the J20 an "imperialist weapon".

Pray tell, how may J20s are deployed in Syria or Baghdad dropping munitions on civilians or in the Black Sea to threaten Russia?

There are USAF, USN, and USMC F35s flying training missions over the yellow sea, EAST China Sea and South China Sea sometimes to as close as 100nm off China's coast. Yet the Mexican thinks J20 is an "Impreial weapon".

J20 is a counter to primarily American power projection within the first island Chain. Ie less Tha 1000nm from China's economic and Industrial hubs. What should the PLA do, bow and scrape to our IMPERIAL American Masters like Mexico does?

Yes the Panda bear is in reality a Dragon, see the Map the view shows Russian teritory as chinese, the Chinese Dragon is like Japan in 1941 as as Japan will be beaten

 

[MiG-29SMT]

 

[J20!]

View attachment 117784
Yes the Panda bear is in reality a Dragon, see the Map the view shows Russian teritory as chinese, the Chinese Dragon is like Japan in 1941 as as Japan will be beaten

Yeah, that's not an official PRC map, so what's your point? How does that even rebutt any of my points?

Just get back on topic.

 

[rockdog]

Yeah, that's not an official PRC map, so what's your point? How does that even rebutt any of my points?

Just get back on topic.

@J20! appriciate your analysis for latest twin seat J20.

When people talk about geopolitics, @MiG-29SMT talks some old aero knowledges,
When people seriously talk about J20 specficiations like you, he talks politics and east vs west.

I always wondering why he as Mexican, nation from Latin American, show such big royalty to the WASP lead western. The WASP USA didn't even treat Italian as part of them during early time, let alone hispanic ...

They treated Mexico as dumping market, and resource of cheap labor. Now they gained royal people like him, this is quite profitable. Everytime i saw him wanted to raise hostile between China and USA even Russia, I recalled that black housemanager from the movie Django Unchained. This guy don't like others to even have equal identity to his master family, and thought himself is one of family member, LOL ...

 

[ym888]

Yeah, that's not an official PRC map, so what's your point? How does that even rebutt any of my points?

Just get back on topic.

You can put up a map of America from 1400

Then shout a slogan: Down with Spanish imperialism！