J20 Stealth Fighter

silentlurker

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2020
Messages
75
Likes
48
Country flag
Let's look at stealth from all aspects:

Front: J-20 with DSI vs Rafale with direct intakes.

Sides: J-20 with canted tail vs Rafale with single vertical tail.

Rear: This is one aspect where the lead is not immediately clear, J-20 rear aspect is pretty bumpy, and more effecient engines on the Rafale might have lower IR emissions.

External weapon hardpoints on the Rafale also obviously subtract from stealth in every aspect.
 

johnq

Senior Member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
1,385
Likes
2,780
Repeatedly posting graphically enhanced propaganda images along with Chinese propaganda with a laundry list of capabilities that have never been verified is trolling. Only brainwashed Chinese fanboys blindly believe Chinese government/military propaganda lies when all evidence points to the contrary.

Those of us who actually know how much of Chinese propaganda is lies will continue to call it out. I have given references above (videos and articles) that discuss how the capabilities of J-20 are fictional Chinese propaganda BS.
The Chinese propagandists have zero proof that J-20 is stealthy, but they are used to blindly believing whatever their Chinese Communist government tells them, and then go to forums to recite the same.

Either you know how much of Chinese propaganda is lies, or you don't. But physics does not change for the Chinese military, and there are enough problems with the design of the J-20 (such as multiple radar resonance hot spots like the gap between the canard joint) that it can be readily tracked even from the front by x band radar. The RCS of the J-20 from sides and back is even worse. Unfortunately the Chinese propagandists here do not understand resonance physics.

I also know for a fact that China does not have the technology to stop its radar/radome from being tracked by all bands of radar, and that is one of the big radar hot spots from the front. The same holds true for the canopy radar reflection. As a result of all these technological limitations, the J-20 is NOT stealthy, and can readily be tracked by long range radar of all bands. The SU-30MKI had no problems tracking it, and neither will the Rafale.

The Chinese propagandist fanboys have no actual proof of J-20s capabilities, other than the word of the Chinese government/military, and I have provided proof that they lied about the Covid-19 human-to-human transmission which helped spread the virus throughout the world. So anyone with an ounce of common sense will know not to trust anything the Chinese Communist Party government says. Unless the whole point of putting graphically altered pictures of the J-20 (many of the pictures don't look real, and more like from a movie) is psy ops for people who don't know that the Chinese government/military are liars.

Here is proof that criminal Chinese Communist Party government lied about Covid-19 pandemic, just to show that Chinese Communist Party government cannot be trusted about anything with their propaganda claims:


From: https://www.nationalreview.com/the-morning-jolt/chinas-devastating-lies/
The Comprehensive Timeline of China’s COVID-19 Lies

On today’s menu: a day-by-day, month-by-month breakdown of China’s coronavirus coverup and the irreparable damage it has caused around the globe.

The Timeline of a Viral Ticking Time Bomb


The story of the coronavirus pandemic is still being written. But at this early date, we can see all kinds of moments where different decisions could have lessened the severity of the outbreak we are currently enduring. You have probably heard variations of: “Chinese authorities denied that the virus could be transferred from human to human until it was too late.” What you have probably not heard is how emphatically, loudly, and repeatedly the Chinese government insisted human transmission was impossible, long after doctors in Wuhan had concluded human transmission was ongoing — and how the World Health Organization assented to that conclusion, despite the suspicions of other outside health experts.

Clearly, the U.S. government’s response to this threat was not nearly robust enough, and not enacted anywhere near quickly enough. Most European governments weren’t prepared either. Few governments around the world were or are prepared for the scale of the danger. We can only wonder whether accurate and timely information from China would have altered the way the U.S. government, the American people, and the world prepared for the oncoming danger of infection.

Some point in late 2019: The coronavirus jumps from some animal species to a human being. The best guess at this point is that it happened at a Chinese “wet market.”

December 6: According to a study in The Lancet, the symptom onset date of the first patient identified was “Dec 1, 2019 . . . 5 days after illness onset, his wife, a 53-year-old woman who had no known history of exposure to the market, also presented with pneumonia and was hospitalized in the isolation ward.” In other words, as early as the second week of December, Wuhan doctors were finding cases that indicated the virus was spreading from one human to another.

December 21: Wuhan doctors begin to notice a “cluster of pneumonia cases with an unknown cause.

December 25:
Chinese medical staff in two hospitals in Wuhan are suspected of contracting viral pneumonia and are quarantined. This is additional strong evidence of human-to-human transmission.

Sometime in “Late December”: Wuhan hospitals notice “an exponential increase” in the number of cases that cannot be linked back to the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market, according to the New England Journal of Medicine.

December 30: Dr. Li Wenliang sent a message to a group of other doctors warning them about a possible outbreak of an illness that resembled severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS), urging them to take protective measures against infection.

December 31:
The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission declares, “The investigation so far has not found any obvious human-to-human transmission and no medical staff infection.” This is the opposite of the belief of the doctors working on patients in Wuhan, and two doctors were already suspected of contracting the virus.

Three weeks after doctors first started noticing the cases, China contacts the World Health Organization.

Tao Lina, a public-health expert and former official with Shanghai’s center for disease control and prevention, tells the South China Morning Post, “I think we are [now] quite capable of killing it in the beginning phase, given China’s disease control system, emergency handling capacity and clinical medicine support.”

January 1: The Wuhan Public Security Bureau issued summons to Dr. Li Wenliang, accusing him of “spreading rumors.” Two days later, at a police station, Dr. Li signed a statement acknowledging his “misdemeanor” and promising not to commit further “unlawful acts.” Seven other people are arrested on similar charges and their fate is unknown.

Also that day, “after several batches of genome sequence results had been returned to hospitals and submitted to health authorities, an employee of one genomics company received a phone call from an official at the Hubei Provincial Health Commission, ordering the company to stop testing samples from Wuhan related to the new disease and destroy all existing samples.”

According to a New York Times study of cellphone data from China, 175,000 people leave Wuhan that day. According to global travel data research firm OAG, 21 countries have direct flights to Wuhan. In the first quarter of 2019 for comparison, 13,267 air passengers traveled from Wuhan, China, to destinations in the United States, or about 4,422 per month. The U.S. government would not bar foreign nationals who had traveled to China from entering the country for another month.

January 2: One study of patients in Wuhan can only connect 27 of 41 infected patients to exposure to the Huanan seafood market — indicating human-to-human transmission away from the market. A report written later that month concludes, “evidence so far indicates human transmission for 2019-nCoV. We are concerned that 2019-nCoV could have acquired the ability for efficient human transmission.”

Also on this day, the Wuhan Institute of Virology completed mapped the genome of the virus. The Chinese government would not announce that breakthrough for another week.

January 3: The Chinese government continued efforts to suppress all information about the virus: “China’s National Health Commission, the nation’s top health authority, ordered institutions not to publish any information related to the unknown disease, and ordered labs to transfer any samples they had to designated testing institutions, or to destroy them.”


Roughly one month after the first cases in Wuhan, the United States government is notified. Robert Redfield, the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, gets initial reports about a new coronavirus from Chinese colleagues, according to Health and Human Services secretary Alex Azar. Azar, who helped manage the response at HHS to earlier SARS and anthrax outbreaks, told his chief of staff to make sure the National Security Council was informed.

Also on this day, the Wuhan Municipal Health Commission released another statement, repeating, “As of now, preliminary investigations have shown no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission and no medical staff infections.

January 4: While Chinese authorities continued to insist that the virus could not spread from one person to another, doctors outside that country weren’t so convinced. The head of the University of Hong Kong’s Centre for Infection, Ho Pak-leung, warned that “the city should implement the strictest possible monitoring system for a mystery new viral pneumonia that has infected dozens of people on the mainland, as it is highly possible that the illness is spreading from human to human.”

January 5: The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission put out a statement with updated numbers of cases but repeated, “preliminary investigations have shown no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission and no medical staff infections.

January 6:
The New York Times publishes its first report about the virus, declaring that “59 people in the central city of Wuhan have been sickened by a pneumonia-like illness.” That first report included these comments:




Wang Linfa, an expert on emerging infectious diseases at the Duke-NUS Medical School in Singapore, said he was frustrated that scientists in China were not allowed to speak to him about the outbreak. Dr. Wang said, however, that he thought the virus was likely not spreading from humans to humans because health workers had not contracted the disease. “We should not go into panic mode,” he said.
Don’t get too mad at Wang Linfa; he was making that assessment based upon the inaccurate information Chinese government was telling the world.

Also that day, the CDC “issued a level 1 travel watch — the lowest of its three levels — for China’s outbreak. It said the cause and the transmission mode aren’t yet known, and it advised travelers to Wuhan to avoid living or dead animals, animal markets, and contact with sick people.”

Also that day, the CDC offered to send a team to China to assist with the investigation. The Chinese government declined, but a WHO team that included two Americans would visit February 16.

January 8: Chinese medical authorities claim to have identified the virus. Those authorities claim and Western media continue to repeat, “there is no evidence that the new virus is readily spread by humans, which would make it particularly dangerous, and it has not been tied to any deaths.”

The official statement from the World Health Organization declares, “Preliminary identification of a novel virus in a short period of time is a notable achievement and demonstrates China’s increased capacity to manage new outbreaks . . . WHO does not recommend any specific measures for travelers. WHO advises against the application of any travel or trade restrictions on China based on the information currently available.”

January 10: After unknowingly treating a patient with the Wuhan coronavirus, Dr. Li Wenliang started coughing and developed a fever. He was hospitalized on January 12. In the following days, Li’s condition deteriorated so badly that he was admitted to the intensive care unit and given oxygen support.

The New York Times quotes the Wuhan City Health Commission’s declaration that “there is no evidence the virus can spread among humans.” Chinese doctors continued to find transmission among family members, contradicting the official statements from the city health commission.

January 11: The Wuhan City Health Commission issues an update declaring, “All 739 close contacts, including 419 medical staff, have undergone medical observation and no related cases have been found . . . No new cases have been detected since January 3, 2020. At present, no medical staff infections have been found, and no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission has been found.” They issue a Q&A sheet later that day reemphasizing that “most of the unexplained viral pneumonia cases in Wuhan this time have a history of exposure to the South China seafood market. No clear evidence of human-to-human transmission has been found.”


Also on this day, political leaders in Hubei province, which includes Wuhan, began their regional meeting. The coronavirus was not mentioned over four days of meetings.

January 13: Authorities in Thailand detected the virus in a 61-year-old Chinese woman who was visiting from Wuhan, the first case outside of China. “Thailand’s Ministry of Public Health, said the woman had not visited the Wuhan seafood market, and had come down with a fever on Jan. 5. However, the doctor said, the woman had visited a different, smaller market in Wuhan, in which live and freshly slaughtered animals were also sold.”

January 14: Wuhan city health authorities release another statement declaring, “Among the close contacts, no related cases were found.” Wuhan doctors have known this was false since early December, from the first victim and his wife, who did not visit the market.

The World Health Organization echoes China’s assessment: “Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in Wuhan, China.

This is five or six weeks after the first evidence of human-to-human transmission in Wuhan.

January 15:
Japan reported its first case of coronavirus. Japan’s Health Ministry said the patient had not visited any seafood markets in China, adding that “it is possible that the patient had close contact with an unknown patient with lung inflammation while in China.”

The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission begins to change its statements, now declaring, “Existing survey results show that clear human-to-human evidence has not been found, and the possibility of limited human-to-human transmission cannot be ruled out, but the risk of continued human-to-human transmission is low.” Recall Wuhan hospitals concluded human-to-human transmission was occurring three weeks earlier. A statement the next day backtracks on the possibility of human transmission, saying only, “Among the close contacts, no related cases were found.

January 17:
The CDC and the Department of Homeland Security’s Customs and Border Protection announce that travelers from Wuhan to the United States will undergo entry screening for symptoms associated with 2019-nCoV at three U.S. airports that receive most of the travelers from Wuhan, China: San Francisco, New York (JFK), and Los Angeles airports.

The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission’s daily update declares, “A total of 763 close contacts have been tracked, 665 medical observations have been lifted, and 98 people are still receiving medical observations. Among the close contacts, no related cases were found.”

January 18: HHS Secretary Azar has his first discussion about the virus with President Trump. Unnamed “senior administration officials” told the Washington Post that “the president interjected to ask about vaping and when flavored vaping products would be back on the market.

Despite the fact that Wuhan doctors know the virus is contagious, city authorities allow 40,000 families to gather and share home-cooked food in a Lunar New Year banquet.

January 19: The Chinese National Health Commission declares the virus “still preventable and controllable.” The World Health Organization updates its statement, declaring, “Not enough is known to draw definitive conclusions about how it is transmitted, the clinical features of the disease, the extent to which it has spread, or its source, which remains unknown.”

January 20: The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission declares for the last time in its daily bulletin, “no related cases were found among the close contacts.


That day, the head of China’s national health commission team investigating the outbreak, confirmed that two cases of infection in China’s Guangdong province had been caused by human-to-human transmission and medical staff had been infected.

Also on this date, the Wuhan Evening News newspaper, the largest newspaper in the city, mentions the virus on the front page for the first time since January 5.

January 21: The CDC announced the first U.S. case of a the coronavirus in a Snohomish County, Wash., resident who returning from China six days earlier.

By this point, millions of people have left Wuhan, carrying the virus all around China and into other countries.

January 22
: WHO director-general Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus continued to praise China’s handling of the outbreak. “I was very impressed by the detail and depth of China’s presentation. I also appreciate the cooperation of China’s Minister of Health, who I have spoken with directly during the last few days and weeks. His leadership and the intervention of President Xi and Premier Li have been invaluable, and all the measures they have taken to respond to the outbreak.”

In the preceding days, a WHO delegation conducted a field visit to Wuhan. They concluded, “deployment of the new test kit nationally suggests that human-to-human transmission is taking place in Wuhan.” The delegation reports, “their counterparts agreed close attention should be paid to hand and respiratory hygiene, food safety and avoiding mass gatherings where possible.”

At a meeting of the WHO Emergency Committee, panel members express “divergent views on whether this event constitutes a “Public Health Emergency of International Concern’ or not. At that time, the advice was that the event did not constitute a PHEIC.”


President Trump, in an interview with CNBC at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, declared, “We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine.

January 23: Chinese authorities announce their first steps for a quarantine of Wuhan. By this point, millions have already visited the city and left it during the Lunar New Year celebrations. Singapore and Vietnam report their first cases, and by now an unknown but significant number of Chinese citizens have traveled abroad as asymptomatic, oblivious carriers.

January 24: Vietnam reports person-to-person transmission, and Japan, South Korea, and the U.S report their second cases. The second case is in Chicago. Within two days, new cases are reported in Los Angeles, Orange County, and Arizona. The virus is in now in several locations in the United States, and the odds of preventing an outbreak are dwindling to zero.

On February 1, Dr. Li Wenliang tested positive for coronavirus. He died from it six days later.


From: https://changingtimes.media/2020/10/12/sars-cov-2-lab-origin-hypothesis-gains-traction/
SARS-CoV-2: lab-origin hypothesis gains traction

“On January 21, President Xi Jinping asked the director-general of the WHO, Dr Tedros Adhanom, to withhold information about person-to-person transmission of the virus, as well as pandemic classification. Likely as a consequence, pandemic classification of the virus was delayed four to six weeks.”

The Chinese propagandists on this forum and elsewhere just don't get it. They are the ones that enable the criminal Chinese Communist Party government leadership that covered up the Covid-19 outbreak by accusing Dr. Li Wenliang and others of criminal activities, while lying that human-to-human transmission was not taking place. The Chinese Communist Party government leadership covered it up for at least six weeks and probably much longer, while allowing international travel, allowing the Covid-19 virus to spread everywhere. Xi Jinping and Chinese Communist Party government leadership is personally responsible for not only the deaths of Chinese people from Covid-19, but also millions of deaths worldwide due to spreading of Covid-19. Xi Jinping and Chinese Communist Party government leadership caused Chinese people's deaths by covering up that Covid-19 human-to-human transmission was taking place in order to spread the Covid-19 virus worldwide, thus using it as a bio-weapon.


Then there is the fact that China imported SU-35 from Russia very recently. If the Chinese aircraft avionics were so great, why import the SU-35, which comes with a severely downgraded Russian radar from the 1990s? Because Chinese radar technology is so primitive that the severely downgraded Russian radar from 1990s technology is a step up for China to copy. So this radar will be readily jammed by modern Russian, Indian and western ECM systems.

I have also posted enough information (discussions in the videos/articles above) about how Chinese engines last only 80 hours before needing to be serviced, so they cannot be used by operational aircraft. There is also evidence in the video discussions posted earlier that the J-20 is using Russian AL-31 engines, and is thus severely underpowered. Even J-10s and JF-17s sold to Pakistan are using Russian engines, because Chinese engines are not reliable. And the servicing of Russian engines by the Chinese is so bad that the first female J-10 pilot died after her jet crashed from engine failure. After that, the Chinese cut down on actual flight training and replaced it with simulator training. As a result the Chinese pilots are poorly trained.

So we have a J-20 that can be tracked by long range radar (even in x band) from all angles (as already done by Indian Air Force SU-30MKIs), that has a radar copied from an outdated downgraded Russian radar that can be jammed, and a very poor thrust to weight ratio (due to use of lower thrust Russian engines, which are less reliable due to poor Chinese servicing, thus leading to crashes like the first female J-10 pilot) so it cannot maneuver. This jet is a turkey and will easily be shot down by any modern jet.

The J-20 is only useful currently in psy ops to intimidate an enemy that doesn't know about this fighter's weaknesses (due to current Chinese technological limitations) such as being readily trackable with long range x band radar from all angles, poor avionics, and poor thrust to weight ratio engines with poor reliability. The Chinese are the greatest liars, and are spreading their lies through their internet propaganda army who go around forums posting graphically enhanced pictures and fake data documents about all their military equipment including the J-20. Many of those images look fake enough to be straight out of a movie.

But those of us who understand how the Chinese propaganda system works will keep speaking out.


Here are the relevant links/articles:



India’s Rafale Vs China’s J-20: How The Two Fighters Stack Up Against Each Other

With the first of the Indian Air Force’s 36 Rafales landing in India today, amid its most serious standoff with China in over five decades, many observers have been wondering if the new fighter can take on the Chinese air force in the event of war — especially the J-20 fighter, China's most advanced fighter aircraft.
The two fighters are very different. While the French Rafale is a 4.5 generation fighter with a close-coupled canards/delta wing configuration, China touts the J-20 as a fifth generation platform with stealth capabilities.
And while this critical difference may suggest that the Chinese J-20 is superior to the Rafale, it may not really be the case.
Does J-20’s Stealth Offers It An Advantage Over Rafale?
It does, at least on paper.
But in the battlefield, this advantage depends on the efficiency of J-20’s stealth.
And over the past few years, serious questions have been raised by experts on the performance of its stealth features.
The efficiency of stealth features of a fighter depends on not only on the shape of the aircraft, but also its exhaust, cockpit shielding, flight characteristics, and, most importantly, its material composition.
“At best, it’s [China’s J-20] probably stealthy only from the front,” aviation analyst Richard Aboulafia, of the Teal Group told Wired in 2016.
“All-aspect stealth like that in the F-22 and F-35 minimizes the radar signature from all directions,” he added.
Additionally, the IAF has claimed that it has been able to track the fighter through its radars, raising questions about the effectiveness of J-20’s stealth characteristics.
While the development of J-20 does suggest that China is moving closer to a robust stealth fighter capability, and the future variants of the J-20 may have better stealth features, the current state of China’s stealth technology does not offer J-20 a significant advantage over the Rafales.
J-20’s Engine Adds To Its Many Problems
Given the high-thrust WS-15 turbofan — China’s purpose-built engine for its new generation stealth fighter — is still not ready for use, the People’s Liberation Army Air Force is making do with Russian AL-31F engines on its J-20s instead.
“Chinese engineers have been developing high-thrust turbofan WS-15 engines for the J-20, but that work has fallen behind schedule,” the South China Morning Post said in a report on J-20 fighters earlier this year.
“..it was equipped with inferior engines...when it first joined the air force in March last year because “critical problems” with its tailor-made WS-15 engine, exposed by an accident in 2015, had not been fixed..,” it said it another report.
This, experts say, not only limits the maneuverability of the fighter and its fuel efficiency but also its stealthiness at supersonic speeds.
The Rafale is fitted with M88 engine offering a high thrust-to-weight ratio with easy maintainability, high despatch reliability and lower operating costs.
Rafale Is Combat Proven
Rafales are not only in service with multiple air forces, it has a proven combat record and has evolved into a potent machine over two decades.
Between 2006 and 2011, the Rafales in service with the French Air Force and Navy were involved in combat missions in Afghanistan. In 2011, the France deployed its Rafales over Libya, where it destroyed Libyan air defences. The fighters have also been deployed for operations against the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria.
During these operations, the fighters have conducted precision strikes with HAMMERS and laser-guided bombs, deep strike with SCALP cruise missiles, and have also flown Intelligence, Surveillance, Tactical Acquisition and Reconnaissance missions.
Rafales have also conducted long-range missions in Mali during the French intervention in the African country.
This includes the longest raid in the history of the French Air Force, spending no less than 9 hours 35 minutes airborne.
China’s J-20, in comparison, entered service only in 2017.
Rafale Comes With Some Of The World’s Most Advanced Weapons
The weapons it packs, among other things, make the Rafale fighter the platform it has evolved into over the last two-and-a-half decades — most of all, MBDA’s Meteor beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile.
Instead of a traditional rocket motor, the Meteor missile uses GmbH’s solid fuel, variable flow, ducted rocket system, also called ramjet.
The Ramjet propulsion system gives Meteor the ability to throttle its engine (control engine power) during the various stages of its flight towards its target.
The ramjet-equipped Meteor has greater chances of hitting a target at long ranges than an air-to-air missile using a typical rocket motor.
This capability gives Meteor the largest ‘no-escape zone’ — the area within which the target can’t kinetically avoid being hit or the kill probability is very high.
Rafales also come with SCALP, a deep-strike air-to-ground cruise missile with a range of over 560 kilometres.
The missile can be fired at its target from stand-off ranges, while still flying within the safety of the Indian airspace in many cases. The missile’s low observability characteristics adds to its lethality.
French Air Force Rafales used the missile widely during its interventions in Libya and Syria. It was used by the Royal Air Force and the Italian Air Force in Libya.
HAMMER precision-guided air-to-ground munition, which the IAF is procuring for its Rafale fleet, comes in with an extended stand-off capacity.
The PLAAF does have weapons with similar capabilities.
China’s PL-15 air-to-air missile, on paper, has a ranger greater than the Meteor missile that will arm the Rafales. However, experts say that the missile may not be as effective at long ranges as its western counterparts such as Meteor.
Meteor has many advantages over the PL-15, including its ability to receive mid-course updates not only from the fighter it is fired from, but also from “third party” sources like other friendly fighters in the battle zone, airborne early warning and control aircraft, and land and sea-based radars.
In terms of weapons upgrades, Rafale will continue to benefit from the European ecosystem which it is part of and is likely to maintain its edge going forward.
Radar And Avionics
Both Rafale and J-20 use an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar.
While little is known about the capabilities of China’s AESA radar, experts widely believe that China remains years behind the west on this front even as it has closed the technological gap over the last two decades.
With its “superior beam agility and its enormous computing power,” Rafale’s RBE2 radar, developed by Thales, is one of the most advanced in the world.
Rafales are also equipped with SPECTRA Electronic Warfare system for threat warning against against hostile radars, missiles and lasers.
The SPECTRA system, Dassault Aviation says, “carries out reliable long-range detection, identification and localisation of threats, allowing the pilot to instantly select the most effective defensive measures based on combinations of radar jamming, infrared or radar decoying and evasive manoeuvres.”
Clearly, the Rafale is a mature 4.5 generation fighter, which has some of the most advanced weapons in the world, access to the western ecosystem for future upgrades, and is already combat-proven.
In comparison, China’s J-20 is a new fifth generation stealth fighter in the early stages of induction into the PLAAF, without a purpose-built engine, and is far from reaching maturity required for combat readiness.


If the J-20 Stealth Fighter Is So Amazing Why Is China Buying Russia's Su-35?

Even as China is publicly showing off its new Chengdu J-20 stealth fighter at the Zhuhai air show for the first time, Beijing is continuing its efforts to acquire advanced Russian fighters.

Indeed, while a pair of J-20s garnered the attention of the world’s media, the Russian government quietly announced that it has started work on building 24 Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker-E fighters for the Chinese People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF). China signed a contract for the delivery of two-dozen Su-35s in November 2015 worth at least $2 billion.

“Delivery of these aircraft to China will be carried out under the terms defined by the relevant contract,” Vladimir Drozhzhov, deputy director of Russia’s Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation, told the Moscow-based TASS news agency. “We are now carrying out the execution of the first phase of our contractual obligations.”

As such, Russia is expected to deliver four Su-35s to the PLAAF before the end of the year. The remaining Su-35s are expected to be delivered within the next three years. But given the Kremlin’s previous experiences with selling China advanced technology, Moscow has insisted on agreements to secure Russian intellectual property onboard the Su-35. In previous years, the Chinese reverse engineered older versions of the Flanker into the Shenyang J-11, J-15 and J-16 series of aircraft.

“We established a Russian-Chinese working group for the purposes of practical implementation of this agreement, which held a regular meeting in September this year,” Drozhzhov said.

Despite whatever agreement Beijing might have signed with Moscow, the Chinese are almost certainly interested in the Su-35 to harvest its technology. While the current configuration of the J-20 externally resembles a genuine fifth-generation fighter in several respects, China remains woefully lacking in engine and mission systems avionics technology. The Su-35’s Saturn AL-41F1S afterburning turbofans, Tikhomirov NIIP Irbis-E phased array radar and electronic warfare suite are likely of high interest to Beijing.

Indeed, China has not perfected its indigenous WS-10 for its Flanker clones, let alone come close to finishing development of the next-generation WS-15 it would need for the J-20. The WS-15 is currently thought to be in a ground-testing phase with flight trials set to begin on an Ilyushin Il-76 some time in the future.

In fact, China has not demonstrated it can build any reliable jet engine—and that’s including designs that it basically stole from Russia. Indeed, the J-20 currently appears to be powered by twin Russian-built Saturn AL-31F engines found on the Sukhoi Su-27 and its many Chinese knockoffs. The addition of the Russian-built AL-41F1S series engines might provide a solution to Beijing’s engine woes.

There are indications that the J-20 carries an active electronically scanned array radar (AESA). Allegedly, the J-20 would be fitted with a Type 1475 (also referred to as the KLJ-5 radar), which is supposedly being tested on a China Test Flight Establishment owned Tupolev Tu-204. However, there is no way to confirm that information because the PLAAF isn’t all that forthcoming about sharing information concerning its developmental projects. However, Russian radar technology is generally believed to be ahead of China’s and it is certainly possible Beijing could glean valuable technical insights from the Irbis-E.

The one advantage the Chinese have over the Russians is in the realm of electro-optical/infrared targeting systems—where Moscow has lagged behind in the wake of the post-Soviet economic meltdown of the 1990s. Indeed, the J-20 does appear to have an electro-optical targeting system (EOTS) mounted under the nose—which could be the Beijing A-Star Science and Technology EOTS-89. But there is no publicly (and reliable) data available about the performance of that sensor. It is very likely it does not match the performance of American or Israeli systems.

Certainly, the J-20 does represent a leap forward for the Chinese defense-aerospace industry. One day, China will be able to develop and build its own jet engines as well as create world-class mission systems avionics—especially given the investment Beijing continues to make into the defense-aerospace sector. However, that day is not today. If the J-20 was really as capable as some would have you believe, Beijing wouldn’t bother with buying a token fleet of Su-35s—there would simply be no point in doing so.
 
Last edited:

MiG-29SMT

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2020
Messages
581
Likes
818
Country flag
Let's look at stealth from all aspects:

Front: J-20 with DSI vs Rafale with direct intakes.

Sides: J-20 with canted tail vs Rafale with single vertical tail.

Rear: This is one aspect where the lead is not immediately clear, J-20 rear aspect is pretty bumpy, and more effecient engines on the Rafale might have lower IR emissions.

External weapon hardpoints on the Rafale also obviously subtract from stealth in every aspect.
The Rafale is inferior on stealth, very likely superior in agility, performance, at least equal in radar and weaponry.


It is like throwing a MiG-23 against a F-14, at WVR the MiG-23 can kill the F-14 if well flown, at BVR, it can not do it well.
 

MiG-29SMT

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2020
Messages
581
Likes
818
Country flag
Repeatedly posting graphically enhanced propaganda images along with Chinese propaganda with a laundry list of capabilities that have never been verified is trolling. Only brainwashed Chinese fanboys blindly believe Chinese government/military propaganda lies when all evidence points to the contrary.

Those of us who actually know how much of Chinese propaganda is lies will continue to call it out. I have given references above (videos and articles) that discuss how the capabilities of J-20 are fictional Chinese propaganda BS.
The Chinese propagandists have zero proof that J-20 is stealthy, but they are used to blindly believing whatever their Chinese Communist government tells them, and then go to forums to recite the same.

Either you know how much of Chinese propaganda is lies, or you don't. But physics does not change for the Chinese military, and there are enough problems with the design of the J-20 (such as multiple radar resonance hot spots like the gap between the canard joint) that it can be readily tracked even from the front by x band radar. The RCS of the J-20 from sides and back is even worse. Unfortunately the Chinese propagandists here do not understand resonance physics.

I also know for a fact that China does not have the technology to stop its radar/radome from being tracked by all bands of radar, and that is one of the big radar hot spots from the front. The same holds true for the canopy radar reflection. As a result of all these technological limitations, the J-20 is NOT stealthy, and can readily be tracked by long range radar of all bands. The SU-30MKI had no problems tracking it, and neither will the Rafale.

The Chinese propagandist fanboys have no actual proof of J-20s capabilities, other than the word of the Chinese government/military, and I have provided proof that they lied about the Covid-19 human-to-human transmission which helped spread the virus throughout the world. So anyone with an ounce of common sense will know not to trust anything the Chinese Communist Party government says. Unless the whole point of putting graphically altered pictures of the J-20 (many of the pictures don't look real, and more like from a movie) is psy ops for people who don't know that the Chinese government/military are liars.

Here is proof that criminal Chinese Communist Party government lied about Covid-19 pandemic, just to show that Chinese Communist Party government cannot be trusted about anything with their propaganda claims:


From: https://www.nationalreview.com/the-morning-jolt/chinas-devastating-lies/
The Comprehensive Timeline of China’s COVID-19 Lies

On today’s menu: a day-by-day, month-by-month breakdown of China’s coronavirus coverup and the irreparable damage it has caused around the globe.

The Timeline of a Viral Ticking Time Bomb


The story of the coronavirus pandemic is still being written. But at this early date, we can see all kinds of moments where different decisions could have lessened the severity of the outbreak we are currently enduring. You have probably heard variations of: “Chinese authorities denied that the virus could be transferred from human to human until it was too late.” What you have probably not heard is how emphatically, loudly, and repeatedly the Chinese government insisted human transmission was impossible, long after doctors in Wuhan had concluded human transmission was ongoing — and how the World Health Organization assented to that conclusion, despite the suspicions of other outside health experts.

Clearly, the U.S. government’s response to this threat was not nearly robust enough, and not enacted anywhere near quickly enough. Most European governments weren’t prepared either. Few governments around the world were or are prepared for the scale of the danger. We can only wonder whether accurate and timely information from China would have altered the way the U.S. government, the American people, and the world prepared for the oncoming danger of infection.

Some point in late 2019: The coronavirus jumps from some animal species to a human being. The best guess at this point is that it happened at a Chinese “wet market.”

December 6: According to a study in The Lancet, the symptom onset date of the first patient identified was “Dec 1, 2019 . . . 5 days after illness onset, his wife, a 53-year-old woman who had no known history of exposure to the market, also presented with pneumonia and was hospitalized in the isolation ward.” In other words, as early as the second week of December, Wuhan doctors were finding cases that indicated the virus was spreading from one human to another.

December 21: Wuhan doctors begin to notice a “cluster of pneumonia cases with an unknown cause.

December 25:
Chinese medical staff in two hospitals in Wuhan are suspected of contracting viral pneumonia and are quarantined. This is additional strong evidence of human-to-human transmission.

Sometime in “Late December”: Wuhan hospitals notice “an exponential increase” in the number of cases that cannot be linked back to the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market, according to the New England Journal of Medicine.

December 30: Dr. Li Wenliang sent a message to a group of other doctors warning them about a possible outbreak of an illness that resembled severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS), urging them to take protective measures against infection.

December 31:
The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission declares, “The investigation so far has not found any obvious human-to-human transmission and no medical staff infection.” This is the opposite of the belief of the doctors working on patients in Wuhan, and two doctors were already suspected of contracting the virus.

Three weeks after doctors first started noticing the cases, China contacts the World Health Organization.

Tao Lina, a public-health expert and former official with Shanghai’s center for disease control and prevention, tells the South China Morning Post, “I think we are [now] quite capable of killing it in the beginning phase, given China’s disease control system, emergency handling capacity and clinical medicine support.”

January 1: The Wuhan Public Security Bureau issued summons to Dr. Li Wenliang, accusing him of “spreading rumors.” Two days later, at a police station, Dr. Li signed a statement acknowledging his “misdemeanor” and promising not to commit further “unlawful acts.” Seven other people are arrested on similar charges and their fate is unknown.

Also that day, “after several batches of genome sequence results had been returned to hospitals and submitted to health authorities, an employee of one genomics company received a phone call from an official at the Hubei Provincial Health Commission, ordering the company to stop testing samples from Wuhan related to the new disease and destroy all existing samples.”

According to a New York Times study of cellphone data from China, 175,000 people leave Wuhan that day. According to global travel data research firm OAG, 21 countries have direct flights to Wuhan. In the first quarter of 2019 for comparison, 13,267 air passengers traveled from Wuhan, China, to destinations in the United States, or about 4,422 per month. The U.S. government would not bar foreign nationals who had traveled to China from entering the country for another month.

January 2: One study of patients in Wuhan can only connect 27 of 41 infected patients to exposure to the Huanan seafood market — indicating human-to-human transmission away from the market. A report written later that month concludes, “evidence so far indicates human transmission for 2019-nCoV. We are concerned that 2019-nCoV could have acquired the ability for efficient human transmission.”

Also on this day, the Wuhan Institute of Virology completed mapped the genome of the virus. The Chinese government would not announce that breakthrough for another week.

January 3: The Chinese government continued efforts to suppress all information about the virus: “China’s National Health Commission, the nation’s top health authority, ordered institutions not to publish any information related to the unknown disease, and ordered labs to transfer any samples they had to designated testing institutions, or to destroy them.”


Roughly one month after the first cases in Wuhan, the United States government is notified. Robert Redfield, the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, gets initial reports about a new coronavirus from Chinese colleagues, according to Health and Human Services secretary Alex Azar. Azar, who helped manage the response at HHS to earlier SARS and anthrax outbreaks, told his chief of staff to make sure the National Security Council was informed.

Also on this day, the Wuhan Municipal Health Commission released another statement, repeating, “As of now, preliminary investigations have shown no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission and no medical staff infections.

January 4: While Chinese authorities continued to insist that the virus could not spread from one person to another, doctors outside that country weren’t so convinced. The head of the University of Hong Kong’s Centre for Infection, Ho Pak-leung, warned that “the city should implement the strictest possible monitoring system for a mystery new viral pneumonia that has infected dozens of people on the mainland, as it is highly possible that the illness is spreading from human to human.”

January 5: The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission put out a statement with updated numbers of cases but repeated, “preliminary investigations have shown no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission and no medical staff infections.

January 6:
The New York Times publishes its first report about the virus, declaring that “59 people in the central city of Wuhan have been sickened by a pneumonia-like illness.” That first report included these comments:





Don’t get too mad at Wang Linfa; he was making that assessment based upon the inaccurate information Chinese government was telling the world.

Also that day, the CDC “issued a level 1 travel watch — the lowest of its three levels — for China’s outbreak. It said the cause and the transmission mode aren’t yet known, and it advised travelers to Wuhan to avoid living or dead animals, animal markets, and contact with sick people.”

Also that day, the CDC offered to send a team to China to assist with the investigation. The Chinese government declined, but a WHO team that included two Americans would visit February 16.

January 8: Chinese medical authorities claim to have identified the virus. Those authorities claim and Western media continue to repeat, “there is no evidence that the new virus is readily spread by humans, which would make it particularly dangerous, and it has not been tied to any deaths.”

The official statement from the World Health Organization declares, “Preliminary identification of a novel virus in a short period of time is a notable achievement and demonstrates China’s increased capacity to manage new outbreaks . . . WHO does not recommend any specific measures for travelers. WHO advises against the application of any travel or trade restrictions on China based on the information currently available.”

January 10: After unknowingly treating a patient with the Wuhan coronavirus, Dr. Li Wenliang started coughing and developed a fever. He was hospitalized on January 12. In the following days, Li’s condition deteriorated so badly that he was admitted to the intensive care unit and given oxygen support.

The New York Times quotes the Wuhan City Health Commission’s declaration that “there is no evidence the virus can spread among humans.” Chinese doctors continued to find transmission among family members, contradicting the official statements from the city health commission.

January 11: The Wuhan City Health Commission issues an update declaring, “All 739 close contacts, including 419 medical staff, have undergone medical observation and no related cases have been found . . . No new cases have been detected since January 3, 2020. At present, no medical staff infections have been found, and no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission has been found.” They issue a Q&A sheet later that day reemphasizing that “most of the unexplained viral pneumonia cases in Wuhan this time have a history of exposure to the South China seafood market. No clear evidence of human-to-human transmission has been found.”


Also on this day, political leaders in Hubei province, which includes Wuhan, began their regional meeting. The coronavirus was not mentioned over four days of meetings.

January 13: Authorities in Thailand detected the virus in a 61-year-old Chinese woman who was visiting from Wuhan, the first case outside of China. “Thailand’s Ministry of Public Health, said the woman had not visited the Wuhan seafood market, and had come down with a fever on Jan. 5. However, the doctor said, the woman had visited a different, smaller market in Wuhan, in which live and freshly slaughtered animals were also sold.”

January 14: Wuhan city health authorities release another statement declaring, “Among the close contacts, no related cases were found.” Wuhan doctors have known this was false since early December, from the first victim and his wife, who did not visit the market.

The World Health Organization echoes China’s assessment: “Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in Wuhan, China.

This is five or six weeks after the first evidence of human-to-human transmission in Wuhan.

January 15:
Japan reported its first case of coronavirus. Japan’s Health Ministry said the patient had not visited any seafood markets in China, adding that “it is possible that the patient had close contact with an unknown patient with lung inflammation while in China.”

The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission begins to change its statements, now declaring, “Existing survey results show that clear human-to-human evidence has not been found, and the possibility of limited human-to-human transmission cannot be ruled out, but the risk of continued human-to-human transmission is low.” Recall Wuhan hospitals concluded human-to-human transmission was occurring three weeks earlier. A statement the next day backtracks on the possibility of human transmission, saying only, “Among the close contacts, no related cases were found.

January 17:
The CDC and the Department of Homeland Security’s Customs and Border Protection announce that travelers from Wuhan to the United States will undergo entry screening for symptoms associated with 2019-nCoV at three U.S. airports that receive most of the travelers from Wuhan, China: San Francisco, New York (JFK), and Los Angeles airports.

The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission’s daily update declares, “A total of 763 close contacts have been tracked, 665 medical observations have been lifted, and 98 people are still receiving medical observations. Among the close contacts, no related cases were found.”

January 18: HHS Secretary Azar has his first discussion about the virus with President Trump. Unnamed “senior administration officials” told the Washington Post that “the president interjected to ask about vaping and when flavored vaping products would be back on the market.

Despite the fact that Wuhan doctors know the virus is contagious, city authorities allow 40,000 families to gather and share home-cooked food in a Lunar New Year banquet.

January 19: The Chinese National Health Commission declares the virus “still preventable and controllable.” The World Health Organization updates its statement, declaring, “Not enough is known to draw definitive conclusions about how it is transmitted, the clinical features of the disease, the extent to which it has spread, or its source, which remains unknown.”

January 20: The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission declares for the last time in its daily bulletin, “no related cases were found among the close contacts.


That day, the head of China’s national health commission team investigating the outbreak, confirmed that two cases of infection in China’s Guangdong province had been caused by human-to-human transmission and medical staff had been infected.

Also on this date, the Wuhan Evening News newspaper, the largest newspaper in the city, mentions the virus on the front page for the first time since January 5.

January 21: The CDC announced the first U.S. case of a the coronavirus in a Snohomish County, Wash., resident who returning from China six days earlier.

By this point, millions of people have left Wuhan, carrying the virus all around China and into other countries.

January 22
: WHO director-general Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus continued to praise China’s handling of the outbreak. “I was very impressed by the detail and depth of China’s presentation. I also appreciate the cooperation of China’s Minister of Health, who I have spoken with directly during the last few days and weeks. His leadership and the intervention of President Xi and Premier Li have been invaluable, and all the measures they have taken to respond to the outbreak.”

In the preceding days, a WHO delegation conducted a field visit to Wuhan. They concluded, “deployment of the new test kit nationally suggests that human-to-human transmission is taking place in Wuhan.” The delegation reports, “their counterparts agreed close attention should be paid to hand and respiratory hygiene, food safety and avoiding mass gatherings where possible.”

At a meeting of the WHO Emergency Committee, panel members express “divergent views on whether this event constitutes a “Public Health Emergency of International Concern’ or not. At that time, the advice was that the event did not constitute a PHEIC.”


President Trump, in an interview with CNBC at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, declared, “We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine.

January 23: Chinese authorities announce their first steps for a quarantine of Wuhan. By this point, millions have already visited the city and left it during the Lunar New Year celebrations. Singapore and Vietnam report their first cases, and by now an unknown but significant number of Chinese citizens have traveled abroad as asymptomatic, oblivious carriers.

January 24: Vietnam reports person-to-person transmission, and Japan, South Korea, and the U.S report their second cases. The second case is in Chicago. Within two days, new cases are reported in Los Angeles, Orange County, and Arizona. The virus is in now in several locations in the United States, and the odds of preventing an outbreak are dwindling to zero.

On February 1, Dr. Li Wenliang tested positive for coronavirus. He died from it six days later.


From: https://changingtimes.media/2020/10/12/sars-cov-2-lab-origin-hypothesis-gains-traction/
SARS-CoV-2: lab-origin hypothesis gains traction

“On January 21, President Xi Jinping asked the director-general of the WHO, Dr Tedros Adhanom, to withhold information about person-to-person transmission of the virus, as well as pandemic classification. Likely as a consequence, pandemic classification of the virus was delayed four to six weeks.”

The Chinese propagandists on this forum and elsewhere just don't get it. They are the ones that enable the criminal Chinese Communist Party government leadership that covered up the Covid-19 outbreak by accusing Dr. Li Wenliang and others of criminal activities, while lying that human-to-human transmission was not taking place. The Chinese Communist Party government leadership covered it up for at least six weeks and probably much longer, while allowing international travel, allowing the Covid-19 virus to spread everywhere. Xi Jinping and Chinese Communist Party government leadership is personally responsible for not only the deaths of Chinese people from Covid-19, but also millions of deaths worldwide due to spreading of Covid-19. Xi Jinping and Chinese Communist Party government leadership caused Chinese people's deaths by covering up that Covid-19 human-to-human transmission was taking place in order to spread the Covid-19 virus worldwide, thus using it as a bio-weapon.


Then there is the fact that China imported SU-35 from Russia very recently. If the Chinese aircraft avionics were so great, why import the SU-35, which comes with a severely downgraded Russian radar from the 1990s? Because Chinese radar technology is so primitive that the severely downgraded Russian radar from 1990s technology is a step up for China to copy. So this radar will be readily jammed by modern Russian, Indian and western ECM systems.

I have also posted enough information (discussions in the videos/articles above) about how Chinese engines last only 80 hours before needing to be serviced, so they cannot be used by operational aircraft. There is also evidence in the video discussions posted earlier that the J-20 is using Russian AL-31 engines, and is thus severely underpowered. Even J-10s and JF-17s sold to Pakistan are using Russian engines, because Chinese engines are not reliable. And the servicing of Russian engines by the Chinese is so bad that the first female J-10 pilot died after her jet crashed from engine failure. After that, the Chinese cut down on actual flight training and replaced it with simulator training. As a result the Chinese pilots are poorly trained.

So we have a J-20 that can be tracked by long range radar (even in x band) from all angles (as already done by Indian Air Force SU-30MKIs), that has a radar copied from an outdated downgraded Russian radar that can be jammed, and a very poor thrust to weight ratio (due to use of lower thrust Russian engines, which are less reliable due to poor Chinese servicing, thus leading to crashes like the first female J-10 pilot) so it cannot maneuver. This jet is a turkey and will easily be shot down by any modern jet.

The J-20 is only useful currently in psy ops to intimidate an enemy that doesn't know about this fighter's weaknesses (due to current Chinese technological limitations) such as being readily trackable with long range x band radar from all angles, poor avionics, and poor thrust to weight ratio engines with poor reliability. The Chinese are the greatest liars, and are spreading their lies through their internet propaganda army who go around forums posting graphically enhanced pictures and fake data documents about all their military equipment including the J-20. Many of those images look fake enough to be straight out of a movie.

But those of us who understand how the Chinese propaganda system works will keep speaking out.


Here are the relevant links/articles:



India’s Rafale Vs China’s J-20: How The Two Fighters Stack Up Against Each Other

With the first of the Indian Air Force’s 36 Rafales landing in India today, amid its most serious standoff with China in over five decades, many observers have been wondering if the new fighter can take on the Chinese air force in the event of war — especially the J-20 fighter, China's most advanced fighter aircraft.
The two fighters are very different. While the French Rafale is a 4.5 generation fighter with a close-coupled canards/delta wing configuration, China touts the J-20 as a fifth generation platform with stealth capabilities.
And while this critical difference may suggest that the Chinese J-20 is superior to the Rafale, it may not really be the case.
Does J-20’s Stealth Offers It An Advantage Over Rafale?
It does, at least on paper.
But in the battlefield, this advantage depends on the efficiency of J-20’s stealth.
And over the past few years, serious questions have been raised by experts on the performance of its stealth features.
The efficiency of stealth features of a fighter depends on not only on the shape of the aircraft, but also its exhaust, cockpit shielding, flight characteristics, and, most importantly, its material composition.
“At best, it’s [China’s J-20] probably stealthy only from the front,” aviation analyst Richard Aboulafia, of the Teal Group told Wired in 2016.
“All-aspect stealth like that in the F-22 and F-35 minimizes the radar signature from all directions,” he added.
Additionally, the IAF has claimed that it has been able to track the fighter through its radars, raising questions about the effectiveness of J-20’s stealth characteristics.
While the development of J-20 does suggest that China is moving closer to a robust stealth fighter capability, and the future variants of the J-20 may have better stealth features, the current state of China’s stealth technology does not offer J-20 a significant advantage over the Rafales.
J-20’s Engine Adds To Its Many Problems
Given the high-thrust WS-15 turbofan — China’s purpose-built engine for its new generation stealth fighter — is still not ready for use, the People’s Liberation Army Air Force is making do with Russian AL-31F engines on its J-20s instead.
“Chinese engineers have been developing high-thrust turbofan WS-15 engines for the J-20, but that work has fallen behind schedule,” the South China Morning Post said in a report on J-20 fighters earlier this year.
“..it was equipped with inferior engines...when it first joined the air force in March last year because “critical problems” with its tailor-made WS-15 engine, exposed by an accident in 2015, had not been fixed..,” it said it another report.
This, experts say, not only limits the maneuverability of the fighter and its fuel efficiency but also its stealthiness at supersonic speeds.
The Rafale is fitted with M88 engine offering a high thrust-to-weight ratio with easy maintainability, high despatch reliability and lower operating costs.
Rafale Is Combat Proven
Rafales are not only in service with multiple air forces, it has a proven combat record and has evolved into a potent machine over two decades.
Between 2006 and 2011, the Rafales in service with the French Air Force and Navy were involved in combat missions in Afghanistan. In 2011, the France deployed its Rafales over Libya, where it destroyed Libyan air defences. The fighters have also been deployed for operations against the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria.
During these operations, the fighters have conducted precision strikes with HAMMERS and laser-guided bombs, deep strike with SCALP cruise missiles, and have also flown Intelligence, Surveillance, Tactical Acquisition and Reconnaissance missions.
Rafales have also conducted long-range missions in Mali during the French intervention in the African country.
This includes the longest raid in the history of the French Air Force, spending no less than 9 hours 35 minutes airborne.
China’s J-20, in comparison, entered service only in 2017.
Rafale Comes With Some Of The World’s Most Advanced Weapons
The weapons it packs, among other things, make the Rafale fighter the platform it has evolved into over the last two-and-a-half decades — most of all, MBDA’s Meteor beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile.
Instead of a traditional rocket motor, the Meteor missile uses GmbH’s solid fuel, variable flow, ducted rocket system, also called ramjet.
The Ramjet propulsion system gives Meteor the ability to throttle its engine (control engine power) during the various stages of its flight towards its target.
The ramjet-equipped Meteor has greater chances of hitting a target at long ranges than an air-to-air missile using a typical rocket motor.
This capability gives Meteor the largest ‘no-escape zone’ — the area within which the target can’t kinetically avoid being hit or the kill probability is very high.
Rafales also come with SCALP, a deep-strike air-to-ground cruise missile with a range of over 560 kilometres.
The missile can be fired at its target from stand-off ranges, while still flying within the safety of the Indian airspace in many cases. The missile’s low observability characteristics adds to its lethality.
French Air Force Rafales used the missile widely during its interventions in Libya and Syria. It was used by the Royal Air Force and the Italian Air Force in Libya.
HAMMER precision-guided air-to-ground munition, which the IAF is procuring for its Rafale fleet, comes in with an extended stand-off capacity.
The PLAAF does have weapons with similar capabilities.
China’s PL-15 air-to-air missile, on paper, has a ranger greater than the Meteor missile that will arm the Rafales. However, experts say that the missile may not be as effective at long ranges as its western counterparts such as Meteor.
Meteor has many advantages over the PL-15, including its ability to receive mid-course updates not only from the fighter it is fired from, but also from “third party” sources like other friendly fighters in the battle zone, airborne early warning and control aircraft, and land and sea-based radars.
In terms of weapons upgrades, Rafale will continue to benefit from the European ecosystem which it is part of and is likely to maintain its edge going forward.
Radar And Avionics
Both Rafale and J-20 use an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar.
While little is known about the capabilities of China’s AESA radar, experts widely believe that China remains years behind the west on this front even as it has closed the technological gap over the last two decades.
With its “superior beam agility and its enormous computing power,” Rafale’s RBE2 radar, developed by Thales, is one of the most advanced in the world.
Rafales are also equipped with SPECTRA Electronic Warfare system for threat warning against against hostile radars, missiles and lasers.
The SPECTRA system, Dassault Aviation says, “carries out reliable long-range detection, identification and localisation of threats, allowing the pilot to instantly select the most effective defensive measures based on combinations of radar jamming, infrared or radar decoying and evasive manoeuvres.”
Clearly, the Rafale is a mature 4.5 generation fighter, which has some of the most advanced weapons in the world, access to the western ecosystem for future upgrades, and is already combat-proven.
In comparison, China’s J-20 is a new fifth generation stealth fighter in the early stages of induction into the PLAAF, without a purpose-built engine, and is far from reaching maturity required for combat readiness.


If the J-20 Stealth Fighter Is So Amazing Why Is China Buying Russia's Su-35?

Even as China is publicly showing off its new Chengdu J-20 stealth fighter at the Zhuhai air show for the first time, Beijing is continuing its efforts to acquire advanced Russian fighters.

Indeed, while a pair of J-20s garnered the attention of the world’s media, the Russian government quietly announced that it has started work on building 24 Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker-E fighters for the Chinese People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF). China signed a contract for the delivery of two-dozen Su-35s in November 2015 worth at least $2 billion.

“Delivery of these aircraft to China will be carried out under the terms defined by the relevant contract,” Vladimir Drozhzhov, deputy director of Russia’s Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation, told the Moscow-based TASS news agency. “We are now carrying out the execution of the first phase of our contractual obligations.”

As such, Russia is expected to deliver four Su-35s to the PLAAF before the end of the year. The remaining Su-35s are expected to be delivered within the next three years. But given the Kremlin’s previous experiences with selling China advanced technology, Moscow has insisted on agreements to secure Russian intellectual property onboard the Su-35. In previous years, the Chinese reverse engineered older versions of the Flanker into the Shenyang J-11, J-15 and J-16 series of aircraft.

“We established a Russian-Chinese working group for the purposes of practical implementation of this agreement, which held a regular meeting in September this year,” Drozhzhov said.

Despite whatever agreement Beijing might have signed with Moscow, the Chinese are almost certainly interested in the Su-35 to harvest its technology. While the current configuration of the J-20 externally resembles a genuine fifth-generation fighter in several respects, China remains woefully lacking in engine and mission systems avionics technology. The Su-35’s Saturn AL-41F1S afterburning turbofans, Tikhomirov NIIP Irbis-E phased array radar and electronic warfare suite are likely of high interest to Beijing.

Indeed, China has not perfected its indigenous WS-10 for its Flanker clones, let alone come close to finishing development of the next-generation WS-15 it would need for the J-20. The WS-15 is currently thought to be in a ground-testing phase with flight trials set to begin on an Ilyushin Il-76 some time in the future.

In fact, China has not demonstrated it can build any reliable jet engine—and that’s including designs that it basically stole from Russia. Indeed, the J-20 currently appears to be powered by twin Russian-built Saturn AL-31F engines found on the Sukhoi Su-27 and its many Chinese knockoffs. The addition of the Russian-built AL-41F1S series engines might provide a solution to Beijing’s engine woes.

There are indications that the J-20 carries an active electronically scanned array radar (AESA). Allegedly, the J-20 would be fitted with a Type 1475 (also referred to as the KLJ-5 radar), which is supposedly being tested on a China Test Flight Establishment owned Tupolev Tu-204. However, there is no way to confirm that information because the PLAAF isn’t all that forthcoming about sharing information concerning its developmental projects. However, Russian radar technology is generally believed to be ahead of China’s and it is certainly possible Beijing could glean valuable technical insights from the Irbis-E.

The one advantage the Chinese have over the Russians is in the realm of electro-optical/infrared targeting systems—where Moscow has lagged behind in the wake of the post-Soviet economic meltdown of the 1990s. Indeed, the J-20 does appear to have an electro-optical targeting system (EOTS) mounted under the nose—which could be the Beijing A-Star Science and Technology EOTS-89. But there is no publicly (and reliable) data available about the performance of that sensor. It is very likely it does not match the performance of American or Israeli systems.

Certainly, the J-20 does represent a leap forward for the Chinese defense-aerospace industry. One day, China will be able to develop and build its own jet engines as well as create world-class mission systems avionics—especially given the investment Beijing continues to make into the defense-aerospace sector. However, that day is not today. If the J-20 was really as capable as some would have you believe, Beijing wouldn’t bother with buying a token fleet of Su-35s—there would simply be no point in doing so.
you are trolling first this is not a covid related thread posting that is trolling.

second repeating posts is trolling not engaging in a useful a fruitful conversation.
third the guy on the video is not as good as you claim and it is easy to see

Su-30MKI was built in India.
Even the Al-31 was built in India





Su-27 family is the most produced 4 generation heavy fighter.
Russia has built around 1100 aircraft for different customers in different variants

Su-27 has been built in India and China around 600 built.

Now wake up, China has now built around 400-500 J-10s
around 200 J-8II, around 150 JH-7 and around 300 Su-27s and its variants.

India is lagging behind you like or not.

In fact J-20 at the moment has no Indian equivalent..

Rafale is no match for J-20, it is very likely good versus J-10 or chinese Su-27 clones.


India should follow South Korea and Japan example and buy either Su-57s or F-35s and continue developing its aircraft industry.

Am I pro-chinese? no I am not, I am western, latin American but you have to be honest, China has a well developed aircraft industry, and India should study well its geopolitical rival and accept its weaknesses and work out to catch up and even surpass China, in fact you are pretty unpolite, since I like India but you are just trolling
 
Last edited:

no smoking

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
4,293
Likes
968
Country flag
Rear: This is one aspect where the lead is not immediately clear, J-20 rear aspect is pretty bumpy, and more effecient engines on the Rafale might have lower IR emissions.
The current engines, AL-31 or WS-10C, are all interim equipment, so we have to wait until the WS-15 comes out. Then we can check what the "full status" J-20 is.
 

johnq

Senior Member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
1,385
Likes
2,780
you are trolling first this is not a covid related thread posting that is trolling.

second repeating posts is trolling not engaging in a useful a fruitful conversation.
third the guy on the video is not as good as you claim and it is easy to see

Su-30MKI was built in India.
Even the Al-31 was built in India





Su-27 family is the most produced 4 generation heavy fighter.
Russia has built around 1100 aircraft for different customers in different variants

Su-27 has been built in India and China around 600 built.

Now wake up, China has now built around 400-500 J-10s
around 200 J-8II, around 150 JH-7 and around 300 Su-27s and its variants.

India is lagging behind you like or not.

In fact J-20 at the moment has no Indian equivalent..

Rafale is no match for J-20, it is very likely good versus J-10 or chinese Su-27 clones.


India should follow South Korea and Japan example and buy either Su-57s or F-35s and continue developing its aircraft industry.

Am I pro-chinese? no I am not, I am western, latin American but you have to be honest, China has a well developed aircraft industry, and India should study well its geopolitical rival and accept its weaknesses and work out to catch up and even surpass China, in fact you are pretty unpolite, since I like India but you are just trolling
Anyone who repeatedly posts Chinese propaganda is a Chinese propagandist. Chinese government propagandists in this forum always post under different flags, because they are liars who spread lies about Chinese military capablilities. Chinese propagandists are also brainwashed drones, who are incapable of responding to evidence directly in front of them, and blindly believe whatever the Chinese government tells them, even though the Chinese government has been proven to be liars through the Covid-19 crisis. Only Chinese propagandists would be bothered by the truth about how Chinese government spread Covid-19 through the world. It is not trolling to give information that proves that Chinese government is a liar, Covid-19 or otherwise.

Here is proof that criminal Chinese Communist Party government lied about Covid-19 pandemic, just to show that Chinese Communist Party government cannot be trusted about anything with their propaganda claims:


From: https://www.nationalreview.com/the-morning-jolt/chinas-devastating-lies/
The Comprehensive Timeline of China’s COVID-19 Lies

From: https://changingtimes.media/2020/10/12/sars-cov-2-lab-origin-hypothesis-gains-traction/
SARS-CoV-2: lab-origin hypothesis gains traction

“On January 21, President Xi Jinping asked the director-general of the WHO, Dr Tedros Adhanom, to withhold information about person-to-person transmission of the virus, as well as pandemic classification. Likely as a consequence, pandemic classification of the virus was delayed four to six weeks.”

The Chinese propagandists on this forum and elsewhere just don't get it. They are the ones that enable the criminal Chinese Communist Party government leadership that covered up the Covid-19 outbreak by accusing Dr. Li Wenliang and others of criminal activities, while lying that human-to-human transmission was not taking place. The Chinese Communist Party government leadership covered it up for at least six weeks and probably much longer, while allowing international travel, allowing the Covid-19 virus to spread everywhere. Xi Jinping and Chinese Communist Party government leadership is personally responsible for not only the deaths of Chinese people from Covid-19, but also millions of deaths worldwide due to spreading of Covid-19. Xi Jinping and Chinese Communist Party government leadership caused Chinese people's deaths by covering up that Covid-19 human-to-human transmission was taking place in order to spread the Covid-19 virus worldwide, thus using it as a bio-weapon.

It is also not trolling to repeat information when Chinese propagandists completely ignore the facts even when they are there in front of them. The fact is that Chinese propagandists are not interested in the truth, but only in covering up the truth about how bad the J-20 really is.

I will keep repeating the points I am making because the Chinese propagandists are too brainwashed to learn the truth about how crappy the J-20 is even when multiple articles and reports that say this are posted in front of them.

Chinese propagandists blindly believe whatever their government says about the J-20, even though they DON'T KNOW whether any of the capabilities listed in its brochures are true or just fake Chinese government/military psy ops.

All of the fighters in the PLAAF use Russian engines that crash due to poor Chinese maintenance, which is why the PLAAF had to cut down their flight hours. It is a fact that Chinese engines are still not operational after over 2 decades and the Chinese J-10s, JF-17s and all other fighters are using Russian engines, but they still crash due to poor Chinese maintenance.

Wake up, the first female J-10 pilot died a horrible death after her fighter crashed due to engine failure. After that the PLAAF cut down flight hours, leading to poor training.

If the J-20 were so advanced, why did China recently import SU-35 from Russia? To copy its downgraded Russian radar from the 1990s of course. The avionics on the rest of the PLAAF fighters are even worse, and all their radars can be jammed by Indian Air Force ECM.

The J-20 can be tracked by radar from all angles, as already proven by Indian Air Force SU-30MKIs. This is because China still has no way to hide radar reflection from its radar/radome and canopy in the front, and from multiple resonance hotspots such as canard joints and other control surfaces.

The J-20 is horribly underpowered due to the use of Russian AL-31F engines. The Chinese maintenance of these engines is so poor that they had to cut flight hours to stop their jets from crashing and their pilots from dying.

So you have a J-20 that can be tracked by radar from all angles, horribly underpowered through use of older Russian AL-31F engines (because Chinese engines are not reliable), has poor avionics stolen from downgraded 1990s Russian avionics through recent SU-35 import (so J-20 radar can be jammed easily), and will crash a lot due to poor Chinese maintenance of Russian engines (similar to the J-10 crashes, due to which PLAAF had to cut flight training). The rest of the PLAAF is even more primitive in terms of avionics and engines, and will crash left and right during wartime, or be shot down due to crappy avionics. Chinese avionics/ECM technology is even more primitive than Pakistan, which is why Pakistan insists on western avionics in its JF-17s. Pakistan also only uses Russian engines in its JF-17 because Chinese
engines are horribly unreliable and break down after 80 hours.

The J-20 is only useful currently in psy ops to intimidate an enemy that doesn't know about this fighter's weaknesses (due to current Chinese technological limitations) such as being readily trackable with long range x band radar from all angles, poor avionics, and poor thrust to weight ratio engines with poor reliability. The Chinese are the greatest liars, and are spreading their lies through their internet propaganda army who go around forums posting graphically enhanced pictures and fake data documents about all their military equipment including the J-20. Many of those images look fake enough to be straight out of a movie.

But those of us who understand how the Chinese propaganda system works will keep speaking out.


Here are the relevant links/articles:



swarajyamag.com

India’s Rafale Vs China’s J-20: How The Two Fighters Stack Up Against Each Other
Here’s everything you should know.
swarajyamag.com
swarajyamag.com
India’s Rafale Vs China’s J-20: How The Two Fighters Stack Up Against Each Other

With the first of the Indian Air Force’s 36 Rafales landing in India today, amid its most serious standoff with China in over five decades, many observers have been wondering if the new fighter can take on the Chinese air force in the event of war — especially the J-20 fighter, China's most advanced fighter aircraft.
The two fighters are very different. While the French Rafale is a 4.5 generation fighter with a close-coupled canards/delta wing configuration, China touts the J-20 as a fifth generation platform with stealth capabilities.
And while this critical difference may suggest that the Chinese J-20 is superior to the Rafale, it may not really be the case.
Does J-20’s Stealth Offers It An Advantage Over Rafale?
It does, at least on paper.
But in the battlefield, this advantage depends on the efficiency of J-20’s stealth.
And over the past few years, serious questions have been raised by experts on the performance of its stealth features.
The efficiency of stealth features of a fighter depends on not only on the shape of the aircraft, but also its exhaust, cockpit shielding, flight characteristics, and, most importantly, its material composition.
“At best, it’s [China’s J-20] probably stealthy only from the front,” aviation analyst Richard Aboulafia, of the Teal Group told Wired in 2016.
“All-aspect stealth like that in the F-22 and F-35 minimizes the radar signature from all directions,” he added.
Additionally, the IAF has claimed that it has been able to track the fighter through its radars, raising questions about the effectiveness of J-20’s stealth characteristics.
While the development of J-20 does suggest that China is moving closer to a robust stealth fighter capability, and the future variants of the J-20 may have better stealth features, the current state of China’s stealth technology does not offer J-20 a significant advantage over the Rafales.
J-20’s Engine Adds To Its Many Problems
Given the high-thrust WS-15 turbofan — China’s purpose-built engine for its new generation stealth fighter — is still not ready for use, the People’s Liberation Army Air Force is making do with Russian AL-31F engines on its J-20s instead.
“Chinese engineers have been developing high-thrust turbofan WS-15 engines for the J-20, but that work has fallen behind schedule,” the South China Morning Post said in a report on J-20 fighters earlier this year.
“..it was equipped with inferior engines...when it first joined the air force in March last year because “critical problems” with its tailor-made WS-15 engine, exposed by an accident in 2015, had not been fixed..,” it said it another report.
This, experts say, not only limits the maneuverability of the fighter and its fuel efficiency but also its stealthiness at supersonic speeds.
The Rafale is fitted with M88 engine offering a high thrust-to-weight ratio with easy maintainability, high despatch reliability and lower operating costs.
Rafale Is Combat Proven
Rafales are not only in service with multiple air forces, it has a proven combat record and has evolved into a potent machine over two decades.
Between 2006 and 2011, the Rafales in service with the French Air Force and Navy were involved in combat missions in Afghanistan. In 2011, the France deployed its Rafales over Libya, where it destroyed Libyan air defences. The fighters have also been deployed for operations against the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria.
During these operations, the fighters have conducted precision strikes with HAMMERS and laser-guided bombs, deep strike with SCALP cruise missiles, and have also flown Intelligence, Surveillance, Tactical Acquisition and Reconnaissance missions.
Rafales have also conducted long-range missions in Mali during the French intervention in the African country.
This includes the longest raid in the history of the French Air Force, spending no less than 9 hours 35 minutes airborne.
China’s J-20, in comparison, entered service only in 2017.
Rafale Comes With Some Of The World’s Most Advanced Weapons
The weapons it packs, among other things, make the Rafale fighter the platform it has evolved into over the last two-and-a-half decades — most of all, MBDA’s Meteor beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile.
Instead of a traditional rocket motor, the Meteor missile uses GmbH’s solid fuel, variable flow, ducted rocket system, also called ramjet.
The Ramjet propulsion system gives Meteor the ability to throttle its engine (control engine power) during the various stages of its flight towards its target.
The ramjet-equipped Meteor has greater chances of hitting a target at long ranges than an air-to-air missile using a typical rocket motor.
This capability gives Meteor the largest ‘no-escape zone’ — the area within which the target can’t kinetically avoid being hit or the kill probability is very high.
Rafales also come with SCALP, a deep-strike air-to-ground cruise missile with a range of over 560 kilometres.
The missile can be fired at its target from stand-off ranges, while still flying within the safety of the Indian airspace in many cases. The missile’s low observability characteristics adds to its lethality.
French Air Force Rafales used the missile widely during its interventions in Libya and Syria. It was used by the Royal Air Force and the Italian Air Force in Libya.
HAMMER precision-guided air-to-ground munition, which the IAF is procuring for its Rafale fleet, comes in with an extended stand-off capacity.
The PLAAF does have weapons with similar capabilities.
China’s PL-15 air-to-air missile, on paper, has a ranger greater than the Meteor missile that will arm the Rafales. However, experts say that the missile may not be as effective at long ranges as its western counterparts such as Meteor.
Meteor has many advantages over the PL-15, including its ability to receive mid-course updates not only from the fighter it is fired from, but also from “third party” sources like other friendly fighters in the battle zone, airborne early warning and control aircraft, and land and sea-based radars.
In terms of weapons upgrades, Rafale will continue to benefit from the European ecosystem which it is part of and is likely to maintain its edge going forward.
Radar And Avionics
Both Rafale and J-20 use an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar.
While little is known about the capabilities of China’s AESA radar, experts widely believe that China remains years behind the west on this front even as it has closed the technological gap over the last two decades.
With its “superior beam agility and its enormous computing power,” Rafale’s RBE2 radar, developed by Thales, is one of the most advanced in the world.
Rafales are also equipped with SPECTRA Electronic Warfare system for threat warning against against hostile radars, missiles and lasers.
The SPECTRA system, Dassault Aviation says, “carries out reliable long-range detection, identification and localisation of threats, allowing the pilot to instantly select the most effective defensive measures based on combinations of radar jamming, infrared or radar decoying and evasive manoeuvres.”
Clearly, the Rafale is a mature 4.5 generation fighter, which has some of the most advanced weapons in the world, access to the western ecosystem for future upgrades, and is already combat-proven.
In comparison, China’s J-20 is a new fifth generation stealth fighter in the early stages of induction into the PLAAF, without a purpose-built engine, and is far from reaching maturity required for combat readiness.

nationalinterest.org

If the J-20 Stealth Fighter Is So Amazing Why Is China Buying Russia's Su-35?
A really good question.
nationalinterest.org
nationalinterest.org

If the J-20 Stealth Fighter Is So Amazing Why Is China Buying Russia's Su-35?

Even as China is publicly showing off its new Chengdu J-20 stealth fighter at the Zhuhai air show for the first time, Beijing is continuing its efforts to acquire advanced Russian fighters.

Indeed, while a pair of J-20s garnered the attention of the world’s media, the Russian government quietly announced that it has started work on building 24 Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker-E fighters for the Chinese People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF). China signed a contract for the delivery of two-dozen Su-35s in November 2015 worth at least $2 billion.

“Delivery of these aircraft to China will be carried out under the terms defined by the relevant contract,” Vladimir Drozhzhov, deputy director of Russia’s Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation, told the Moscow-based TASS news agency. “We are now carrying out the execution of the first phase of our contractual obligations.”

As such, Russia is expected to deliver four Su-35s to the PLAAF before the end of the year. The remaining Su-35s are expected to be delivered within the next three years. But given the Kremlin’s previous experiences with selling China advanced technology, Moscow has insisted on agreements to secure Russian intellectual property onboard the Su-35. In previous years, the Chinese reverse engineered older versions of the Flanker into the Shenyang J-11, J-15 and J-16 series of aircraft.

“We established a Russian-Chinese working group for the purposes of practical implementation of this agreement, which held a regular meeting in September this year,” Drozhzhov said.

Despite whatever agreement Beijing might have signed with Moscow, the Chinese are almost certainly interested in the Su-35 to harvest its technology. While the current configuration of the J-20 externally resembles a genuine fifth-generation fighter in several respects, China remains woefully lacking in engine and mission systems avionics technology. The Su-35’s Saturn AL-41F1S afterburning turbofans, Tikhomirov NIIP Irbis-E phased array radar and electronic warfare suite are likely of high interest to Beijing.

Indeed, China has not perfected its indigenous WS-10 for its Flanker clones, let alone come close to finishing development of the next-generation WS-15 it would need for the J-20. The WS-15 is currently thought to be in a ground-testing phase with flight trials set to begin on an Ilyushin Il-76 some time in the future.

In fact, China has not demonstrated it can build any reliable jet engine—and that’s including designs that it basically stole from Russia. Indeed, the J-20 currently appears to be powered by twin Russian-built Saturn AL-31F engines found on the Sukhoi Su-27 and its many Chinese knockoffs. The addition of the Russian-built AL-41F1S series engines might provide a solution to Beijing’s engine woes.

There are indications that the J-20 carries an active electronically scanned array radar (AESA). Allegedly, the J-20 would be fitted with a Type 1475 (also referred to as the KLJ-5 radar), which is supposedly being tested on a China Test Flight Establishment owned Tupolev Tu-204. However, there is no way to confirm that information because the PLAAF isn’t all that forthcoming about sharing information concerning its developmental projects. However, Russian radar technology is generally believed to be ahead of China’s and it is certainly possible Beijing could glean valuable technical insights from the Irbis-E.

The one advantage the Chinese have over the Russians is in the realm of electro-optical/infrared targeting systems—where Moscow has lagged behind in the wake of the post-Soviet economic meltdown of the 1990s. Indeed, the J-20 does appear to have an electro-optical targeting system (EOTS) mounted under the nose—which could be the Beijing A-Star Science and Technology EOTS-89. But there is no publicly (and reliable) data available about the performance of that sensor. It is very likely it does not match the performance of American or Israeli systems.

Certainly, the J-20 does represent a leap forward for the Chinese defense-aerospace industry. One day, China will be able to develop and build its own jet engines as well as create world-class mission systems avionics—especially given the investment Beijing continues to make into the defense-aerospace sector. However, that day is not today. If the J-20 was really as capable as some would have you believe, Beijing wouldn’t bother with buying a token fleet of Su-35s—there would simply be no point in doing so.
 
Last edited:

johnq

Senior Member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
1,385
Likes
2,780
Chinese are a long way from developing successful engines for J-20, as their engines break down after 80 hours of operation:
 

johnq

Senior Member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
1,385
Likes
2,780
The Rafale is inferior on stealth, very likely superior in agility, performance, at least equal in radar and weaponry.


It is like throwing a MiG-23 against a F-14, at WVR the MiG-23 can kill the F-14 if well flown, at BVR, it can not do it well.
The J-20 is not stealthy; it can be tracked by radar from all angles, and has been repeatedly tracked by Indian Air Force in Ladakh. This is because China still has no way to hide radar reflection from its radar/radome and canopy in the front, and from multiple resonance hotspots such as canard joints and other control surfaces. The radar reflections from the sides and back are even worse.
Rafale is stealthy because it uses a combination of low RCS and ECM to reduce its radar footprint.

The avionics on the J-20 are very primitive, as they are stolen from the SU-35s that China recently imported from Russia. Russia only gave a very downgraded version of its 1990s radar and other avionics on the SU-35 sold to China. Rafale's radar, ECM and other avionics are 2 generations ahead of the avionics on the J-20 that China stole from Russian SU-35. Russia knows that Chinese are thieves and liars, so they only give very primitive and downgraded avionics to China. J-20 is extremely primitive in avionics when compared to the Rafale, and even behind the SU-30MKI. The J-20 radar can be easily jammed by Indian, Russian, and western ECM.
 
Last edited:

johnq

Senior Member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
1,385
Likes
2,780
Many people who believe Chinese propaganda about PLAAF shiny toys will be shocked if they found out how crappy Chinese engine reliability is in reality. Even their maintenance of Russian engines is so poor that their J-10s fall out of the sky, due to which they had to cut flight training and replace it with simulator training. It's easy to fly your fighters for their propaganda photo sessions, or post their pictures sitting on the airfield (although many of those are decoys); much harder when you have to fly several sorties in wartime, with your engines failing due to poor reliability, poor maintenance and cold weather. Chinese fighters will crash left and right when they are forced to fly several sorties for long durations in wartime.
 

MiG-29SMT

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2020
Messages
581
Likes
818
Country flag
Chinese are a long way from developing successful engines for J-20, as their engines break down after 80 hours of operation:
Too much propaganda to make happy

China has mastered some types of engine, clones of Russian or british engines but they can build them. like engines for JH-7 or J-7 or J-8IIs.
1605691981103.png

1605692037185.png


Their WS-10 already is flown in Su-27 clones
1605691928265.png


However they are still in 1970s engine technology with of course some updates.

China can not build a 5th generation engine.

117 is a 4 plus plus type engine
that type of engine, type 30 is a truely engine they need


the avionics well unless you have manuals and seen them is unlikely you can say how effective they are.

Only in combat you can know since Chinese will not show their weaknesses or strengths.

How stealthy it is? well untill you do not see the wreckages of Several J-20s after been shot down, to be honest is hard to know.


The rest is make believe China is inferior, in my opinion they do have capable technology, superior to the west? I mean American F-22 or British sixth generation tempest, i do not think so but their J-20 should be a very difficult opponent even for Rafale and despite to your great optimism i doubt the Rafale will have superiority, at the most will be able to down it, luckly in decent numbers, and I am a Rafale fan but i doubt it will have overwheming superiority.

It is like a MiG-23 versus F-15 combat Rafale could down it but the odds are not in its favour

1605692672220.png
 
Last edited:

silentlurker

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2020
Messages
75
Likes
48
Country flag
The current engines, AL-31 or WS-10C, are all interim equipment, so we have to wait until the WS-15 comes out. Then we can check what the "full status" J-20 is.
Fair. But I think in general public consensus is that J20 was not very rear-stealth optimized. WS-15 being more effecient than WS-10 will lower its IR output, but I doubt switching to WS-15 will affect radar refelction. Unless WS-15 switch aslo comes with a rear redesign.
 

johnq

Senior Member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
1,385
Likes
2,780
The J-20 is not stealthy; it can be easily tracked by modern radars from all angles, and has been repeatedly tracked by Indian Air Force in Ladakh. This is because China still has no way to hide radar reflection from its radar/radome and canopy in the front, and from multiple resonance hotspots such as canard joints and other control surfaces. The radar reflections from the sides and back are even worse.

Rafale is stealthy because it uses a combination of low RCS and ECM to reduce its radar footprint. That means that the effective radar footprint of Rafale (with ECM)
is far less than the J-20, whose radar/radome (big contributor to radar signature) is exposed from the front increasing the RCS significantly. The Chinese material technology is so far behind that the canopy, IRST, canards and canard joints, control surfaces, inlet features and other resonance hotspots also increase the RCS of the J-20 to a point where it can easily be tracked by modern radars. Chinese ECM is also very primitive, and is stolen from SU-35 it imported from Russia very recently. Luckily the Russians know that Chinese are thieves and liars, so they only gave very primitive technology on the SU-35.

The avionics on the J-20 are very primitive, as they are stolen from the SU-35s that China recently imported from Russia. If China did not need to copy SU-35 avionics, there would China order the SU-35 so recently, with a small order of only 24 aircraft? Russia only gave a very downgraded version of its 1990s radar and other avionics on the SU-35 sold to China. Rafale's radar, ECM and other avionics are 2 generations ahead of the avionics on the J-20 that China stole from Russian SU-35. Russia knows that Chinese are thieves and liars, so they only give very primitive and downgraded avionics to China. J-20 is extremely primitive in avionics when compared to the Rafale, and even behind the SU-30MKI. The J-20 radar can be easily jammed by Indian, Russian, and western ECM.

The Rafale's avionics and ECM are 2 generations more advanced than the J-20. The J-20 is a Chinese propaganda turkey, and will be easily shot down by Indian SU-30MKIs and Rafales, as both these aircraft have superior avionics and are already able to track and outsmart the J-20 through superior avionics and ECM technology.
The Rafale has actual stealth through the use of ECM, while the J-20 has poor ECM and a trackable radar signature from all angles (including front because of its exposed radar, canopy and resonance hotspots like exposed canard joints, control surface joints, bumps on inlets, etc), which is why Indian Air Force fighters have already been tracking it in Ladakh. Even SU-30MKI can easily defeat J-20 due to superior avionics and ECM (which can jam J-20's primitive radar).

Compared to Rafale and upgraded SU-30MKI, J-20 is like a 1960s era Mig-21 with poor outdated avionics and will be tracked and shot down quite easily. It's also horribly underpowered (due to use of Russian engines, since Chinese engines failed) and without a cannon, so even worse than the MIg-21 in these ways. The Rafale and SU-30MKI have far superior avionics and ECM, and will easily destroy the J-20 in air combat.

The J-20 is more of a psy ops propaganda barbie doll project designed to impress brainwashed Chinese people in order to keep them under control. These mindless Chinese drones believe whatever propaganda the Chinese government feeds them, not knowing that their Chinese Communist Party government are liars, thieves and criminals. Here is more proof that Chinese Communist Party government are liars, thieves and criminals, so their claims about J-20 and other Chinese weapons cannot be trusted because these claims are just Chinese Communist Party propaganda designed to keep brainwashed Chinese people under the CCP government control as slaves:


🔴 Exiled Chinese Billionaire's Accusations of China (w/ Guo Wengui & Kyle Bass) | RV Classics

Kyle Bass sits down with infamous Chinese businessman Guo Wengui, also known as known as “Miles Kwok,” to hear a series of shocking accusations and predictions revolving around the Chinese government. Kwok provides his perception of the backstory behind several recent high-profile news items, and touches on the Chinese government’s management of the economy. He also unfurls an alarming forecast about Alibaba co-founder Jack Ma. Filmed on October 5, 2018 at an undisclosed location.


#86 China's "5-Fingers" Approach to Strangling India | Cleo Paskal
The India China border dispute continues to spiral out of out control as clashes between both sides turn deadly. But it's part of a much bigger strategy by China, part of what's called Comprehensive National Power, to strangle India, by gaining influence in countries surrounding India, like Nepal and Pakistan, as well as disputed border territories along the Line of Actual Control like Ladakh, the Galwan Valley, and the Arunachal Pradesh. Joining us on this China Unscripted podcast is Cleo Paskal is an Associate Fellow in both the Asia-Pacific program and the Energy, Environment and Resources department at Chatham House, as well as a Non-Resident Senior Fellow for the Indo-Pacific in the Center on Military and Political Power at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies.

Built To Last A BuzzFeed News investigation based on thousands of satellite images reveals a vast, growing infrastructure for long-term detention and incarceration.

China has secretly built scores of massive new prison and internment camps in the past three years, dramatically escalating its campaign against Muslim minorities even as it publicly claimed the detainees had all been set free. The construction of these purpose-built, high-security camps — some capable of housing tens of thousands of people — signals a radical shift away from the country’s previous makeshift use of public buildings, like schools and retirement homes, to a vast and permanent infrastructure for mass detention.
In the most extensive investigation of China’s internment camp system ever done using publicly available satellite images, coupled with dozens of interviews with former detainees, BuzzFeed News identified more than 260 structures built since 2017 and bearing the hallmarks of fortified detention compounds. There is at least one in nearly every county in the far-west region of Xinjiang. During that time, the investigation shows, China has established a sprawling system to detain and incarcerate hundreds of thousands of Uighurs, Kazakhs, and other Muslim minorities, in what is already the largest-scale detention of ethnic and religious minorities since World War II.
These forbidding facilities — including several built or significantly expanded within the last year — are part of the government’s unprecedented campaign of mass detention of more than a million people, which began in late 2016. That year Chen Quanguo, the region’s top official and Communist Party boss, whom the US recently sanctioned over human rights abuses, also put Muslim minorities — more than half the region’s population of about 25 million — under perpetual surveillance via facial recognition cameras, cellphone tracking, checkpoints, and heavy-handed human policing. They are also subject to many other abuses, ranging from sterilization to forced labor.
To detain thousands of people in short order, the government repurposed old schools and other buildings. Then, as the number of detainees swelled, in 2018 the government began building new facilities with far greater security measures and more permanent architectural features, such as heavy concrete walls and guard towers, the BuzzFeed News analysis shows. Prisons often take years to build, but some of these new compounds took less than six months, according to historical satellite data. The government has also added more factories within camp and prison compounds during that time, suggesting the expansion of forced labor within the region. Construction was still ongoing as of this month.
“People are living in horror in these places,” said 49-year-old Zhenishan Berdibek, who was detained in a camp in the Tacheng region for much of 2018. “Some of the younger people were not as tolerant as us — they cried and screamed and shouted.” But Berdibek, a cancer survivor, couldn’t muster the energy. As she watched the younger women get dragged away to solitary confinement, “I lost my hope,” she said. “I wanted to die inside the camp.”
BuzzFeed News identified 268 newly built compounds by cross-referencing blanked-out areas on Baidu Maps — a Google Maps–like tool that’s widely used in China — with images from external satellite data providers. These compounds often contained multiple detention facilities.

This map shows the locations of facilities bearing the hallmarks of prisons and internment camps found in this investigation. Note: Many satellite images in this map are from before 2017, meaning that although you can zoom in, you won’t always be able to see the evidence of possible camps.

Locations identified or corroborated by other sources. Satellite images — perimeter walls and guard towers. Satellite images — walls and barbed wire but no guard towers. Detention Center built before 2017. Likely used for detention in the past but now closed or reduced security.
BuzzFeed News; Source: Analysis of satellite imagery using Google Earth, Planet Labs, and the European Space Agency's Sentinel Hub

Ninety-two of these facilities have been identified or verified as detention centers by other sources, such as government procurement documents, academic research, or, in 19 cases, visits by journalists.
Another 176 facilities have been established by satellite imagery alone. The images frequently show thick walls at the perimeter, and often, barbed wire fencing that creates pens and corridors in the courtyards. Many compounds in the region are walled, but the facilities identified by BuzzFeed News have much heavier fortifications. At 121 of these compounds, they also show guard towers, often built into the perimeter wall.
In response to a detailed list of questions about this article as well as a list of GPS coordinates of facilities identified in this article, the Chinese Consulate in New York said “the issue concerning Xinjiang is by no means about human rights, religion or ethnicity, but about combating violent terrorism and separatism,” adding that it was a “groundless lie” that a million Uighurs have been detained in the region.

“Xinjiang has set up vocational education and training centers in order to root out extreme thoughts, enhance the rule of law awareness through education, improve vocational skills and create employment opportunities for them, so that those affected by extreme and violent ideas can return to society as soon as possible,” the consulate added, saying human rights are protected in the centers and that “trainees have freedom of movement.” But it also compared its program to “compulsory programs for terrorist criminals” it said are taking place in other countries including the US and UK.
China's Foreign Ministry and Baidu did not respond to repeated requests for comment.
The new facilities are scattered across every populated area of the region, and several are large enough to accommodate 10,000 prisoners at a minimum, based on their size and architectural features. (One of the reporters on this story is a licensed architect.)
Unlike early sites, the new facilities appear more permanent and prisonlike, similar in construction to high-security prisons in other parts of China. The most highly fortified compounds offer little space between buildings, tiny concrete-walled yards, heavy masonry construction, and long networks of corridors with cells down either side. Their layouts are cavernous, allowing little natural light to the interior of the buildings. BuzzFeed News could see how rooms were laid out at some high-security facilities by examining historical satellite photos taken as they were being constructed, including photos of buildings without roofs.
With at least tens of thousands of detainees crowded into government buildings repurposed as camps by the end of 2017, the government began building the largest new facilities in the spring of 2018. Several were complete by October 2018, with further facilities built through 2019 and construction of a handful more continuing even now.
The government has said its camps are schools and vocational training centers where detainees are “deradicalized.” The government’s own internal documentation about its policies in Xinjiang has used the term “concentration,” or 集中, to describe “educational schools.”
The government claims that its campaign combats extremism in the region. But most who end up in these facilities are not extremists of any sort.
Downloading WhatsApp, which is banned in China, maintaining ties with family abroad, engaging in prayer, and visiting a foreign website are all offenses for which Muslims have been sent to camps, according to previously leaked documents and interviews with former detainees. Because the government does not consider internment camps to be part of the criminal justice system and none of these behaviors are crimes under Chinese law, no detainees have been formally arrested or charged with a crime, let alone seen a day in court.
The compounds BuzzFeed News identified likely include extrajudicial internment camps — which hold people who are not suspected of any crime — as well as prisons. Both types of facilities have security features that closely resemble each other. Xinjiang’s prison population has grown massively during the government’s campaign: In 2017, the region had 21% of all arrests in China, despite making up less than 2% of the national population — an eightfold increase from the year before, according to a New York Times analysis of government data. Because China’s Communist Party–controlled courts have a more than 99% conviction rate, the overwhelming majority of those arrests likely resulted in convictions.

“One day I saw a pregnant woman in shackles. Another woman had a baby in her arms, she was breastfeeding.”

People detained in the camps told BuzzFeed News they were subjected to torture, hunger, overcrowding, solitary confinement, forced birth control, and a range of other abuses. They said they were put through brainwashing programs focusing on Communist Party propaganda and made to speak only in the Chinese language. Some former detainees said they were forced to labor without pay in factories.
The government heavily restricts the movements of independent journalists and researchers in the region, and heavily censors the internet and its own domestic media. Muslim minorities can be punished for posts on social media. But satellite images that are collected from independent providers remain outside the scope of Chinese government censorship.
Other kinds of evidence have also occasionally leaked out. In September, a drone video emerged showing hundreds of blindfolded men with their heads shaven and their arms tied behind their backs, wearing vests that say “Kashgar Detention Center.” Nathan Ruser, a researcher at the Australian Strategic Policy Institute who has done extensive satellite imagery analysis of the detention and prison systems in Xinjiang, said the video shows a prisoner transfer that took place in April 2019 — months after the government first said the system was for vocational training. Previous analyses, including by the Australian Strategic Policy Institute in November 2018, identified several dozen early camps.
“The internment and assimilation program in Xinjiang has the overall logic of colonial genocides in North America, the formalized racism of apartheid, the industrial-scale internment of Germany's concentration camps, and the police-state penetration into everyday life of North Korea,” said Rian Thum, a scholar of the history of Islam in China at the University of Nottingham.
The campaign has done deep damage to many Muslim minority groups — but especially Uighurs, who are by far the most populous ethnic minority group in Xinjiang and do not have ties to any other country. The Chinese government has heavily penalized expressions of Turkic minority culture, from Kazakh- and Uighur-language education to the practice of Islam outside of state-controlled mosques. This, combined with forced sterilizations, has led some critics to say that the campaign qualifies as genocide under international law. The Trump administration is reportedly discussing whether to formally call it a genocide, and a spokesperson for Joe Biden, the Democratic nominee for president, said on Tuesday that Biden supports the label.
“These are peaceful people in concentration camps,” said Abduweli Ayup, a Uighur linguist who was jailed and later exiled from Xinjiang after opening kindergartens that taught Uighur children in their own language. “They are businessmen and scholars and engineers. They are our musicians. They are doctors. They are shopkeepers, restaurant owners, teachers who used Uighur textbooks.
“These are the pillars of our society. Without them, we cannot exist.”

The Chinese flag is seen behind razor wire at a housing compound in Yangisar, south of Kashgar, in China's western Xinjiang region, June 4, 2019.

The position of Muslim minorities, particularly Uighurs, in China has been fraught since the Communist Party came to power in 1949. But conditions deteriorated quickly starting in 2016, when the government implemented a system of heavy-handed surveillance and policing as a means to push Muslims into a growing internment camp system for “transformation through education.” Chen, the region’s party boss, called on officials to “round up everyone who should be rounded up.”
Thousands were. Tursunay Ziyawudun, who was detained in March 2018, was one of them. When she arrived at the camp’s gates, she saw hundreds of people around her removing their jewelry, shoelaces, and belts. They were being “processed,” she said, to enter the camp through a security checkpoint.

Early on, the government remade schools, retirement homes, hospitals, and other public buildings into internment camps. There were other, older detention centers available too — BuzzFeed News identified 47 built before 2017 that have been used to lock people up in the region.
Some detention facilities are geared toward releasing detainees after several months; in others, detainees may be sentenced to prison terms, said Adrian Zenz, a leading researcher on the abuses in Xinjiang. Three former detainees interviewed by BuzzFeed News said they were held for months in detention without any charges against them — far longer than is allowed by law — before they were transferred to internment camps. The detentions picked up speed in 2017, and numbers in the camps quickly swelled until the inmates were living on top of each other.
BuzzFeed News interviewed 28 former detainees from the region, many of whom described being blindfolded and handcuffed, much like the men shown in the video. Many spoke through an interpreter. They are among a tiny minority of former detainees who were released and left the country — but they described a brutal system that they saw growing and changing with their own eyes.
Most recalled being frequently moved from camp to camp — a tactic that many believed was meant to combat overcrowding in the first generation of makeshift facilities. At the beginning of the campaign, hundreds of people were arriving on a daily basis. New batches of detainees always seemed to be coming and going.
Some former detainees described sleeping two to a twin bed, or even sleeping in shifts when there was not enough room to house all the detainees. Almost all said they received meager quantities of rice, steamed buns, and porridge, and little or no meat or other protein.

Orynbek Koksebek, a 40-year-old ethnic Kazakh, was first detained relatively early in the campaign, around the end of 2017. At first, he slept in a room with seven other men, and everyone had a bed to themselves. But within a few months, he began to notice more and more people arriving. “One day I saw a pregnant woman in shackles,” he said. “Another woman had a baby in her arms, she was breastfeeding.”
By February 2018, there were 15 men in his room, he said.
“Some of us had to share blankets or sleep on the floor,” he said. “They told us later that some of us would be given prison sentences or transferred to other camps.”
Camp officials regularly forced detainees to memorize Communist Party propaganda and Chinese characters in classrooms. But some former detainees said their facilities were too crowded for even this — instead, they had to sit on plastic stools next to their beds and stare at textbooks, sitting with their backs perfectly straight while cameras monitored them. Camp guards told them there were too many people to fit in classrooms.
For Koksebek, the claustrophobia was unbearable.
“There was a window in our room, but it was so high I couldn’t see much other than a patch of sky,” he said. “I used to wish I were a bird so I could have the freedom to fly.”






The camp at Shufu, in Xinjiang, seen by satellite on April 26, 2020. BuzzFeed News; Google Maps

On a frigid, overcast morning last December, Shohrat Zakir, the region’s governor and second-most-powerful official, gave a rare press conference at China’s State Council Information Office, located in a closed compound in central Beijing. The office is one of only a handful of government bodies in China that regularly briefs both local and international journalists, and Zakir sat with four other officials at a long podium at the front of the small room. The officials took the opportunity to tout the region’s economic growth and claim China’s campaign against terrorism in Xinjiang has been a success, calling the US government hypocritical for its criticism of China’s human rights abuses. But Zakir was the one who made international headlines.
Of those held in the camps as “trainees,” Zakir painted a rosy picture. They “have all graduated, and have realized stable employment with the government’s help, improved their quality of life, and are enjoying a happy life,” he said.
Even as reporters were scribbling down his remarks, about 2,500 miles away in Xinjiang, construction was wrapping up on a massive high-security compound near the Uighur heartland county of Shufu, just south of a winding river that flows through a countryside dotted by livestock farms. Shufu is small by Chinese standards, with a population of about 300,000 people. It has a main drag with a post office, a lottery ticket vendor, and eateries selling steamed buns and beef noodle soup. The camp was built on farmland less than a 20-minute drive away.
Before workers started construction last March, the land beneath the Shufu site was farmland too, blanketed with green vegetation. By August, workers had built a thick perimeter enclosure, with guard towers looming in the corners and in the center of walls that rise nearly 6 meters, or more than 19 feet, satellite images show. Next came the buildings inside, organized in U-shaped groups, with two five-story structures alongside a two-story one forming the base of the U. By October, two rows of barbed wire fencing appeared on either side of the main concrete-walled compound, its shadow visible in satellite images.
Just outside the walls, on the western side of the compound, two guard buildings were built — distinguished by the narrow walled pathways leading from them up to the wall that would allow guards to access the guard towers and the tops of the walls for patrols. In front of the entrance, a series of buildings provided space for prison offices and police buildings. In total BuzzFeed News estimates that there is room for approximately 10,500 prisoners at this compound — which would help provide a long-term solution to overcrowding.

“I wasn’t happy or sad. I couldn’t feel anything. Even when I was reunited with my relatives in Kazakhstan, they asked me why I didn’t seem happy to see them after so long.”

Ruser reviewed satellite images of the compound and said it was a newly built detention camp. “The vast majority of camps have watchtowers, internal fencing, and a strong external wall entranceway or exit,” he said.
Unlike the old, repurposed camps, new prisons and camps such as this one have higher security, with gates up to four stories tall and thicker walls along their borders, often with further layers of barbed wire on either side of the main walls. These features suggest they are capable of holding much larger groups of people in long-term detention.
The camps can contain not only cells where detainees sleep, but also classrooms, clinics, canteens, stand-alone shower facilities, solitary confinement rooms, police buildings, administrative offices, and small visitor centers, former detainees told BuzzFeed News. Many of the compounds also contain factories, distinguished by their blue, powder-coated metal roofs and steel frames, which are visible in satellite photos taken while they were being constructed. The police buildings, including for guards and administrative personnel, are usually located by the entrances of the compounds.
The locations of these camps and prisons in Xinjiang are not readily available. However, blanked-out portions of maps on China's Baidu make it possible to use satellite imagery to find and analyze them.
Satellite maps, like Google Earth, are made up of a grid of rectangular tiles. On Baidu, the Chinese search giant that has a map service much like Google’s, BuzzFeed News discovered that spaces containing camps, military bases, or other politically sensitive facilities were overlaid with plain light gray tiles. These “mask” tiles appeared upon zooming in on the location. These look different from the darker gray, watermarked tiles that appear when Baidu cannot load something. The “mask” tiles were also present at other locations where camps had been visited and verified by journalists, though they have since been removed.






Dabancheng District, Ürümqi Prefecture
Baidu; Planet Labs






Shule County, Kashgar Prefecture
Baidu; Planet Labs






Gaochang District, Turpan Prefecture
Baidu; Planet Labs

BuzzFeed News identified the compounds using other satellite maps — provided by Google Earth, Planet Labs, and the European Space Agency’s Sentinel Hub — which do not mask those images. For some locations where high-resolution images were not publicly available, Planet Labs used its own satellite to take new pictures, then provided them to BuzzFeed News. Read more here about how this investigation was conducted.
The images showed the facilities being built over a period of months. Details from the images offer a sense of size and scale: Counting the number of windows in building facades, for example, shows how many stories they contain.
Often, these compounds were built next door to an older prison, sharing parking lots, administrative facilities, and police barracks with the older facility, satellite images show.
BuzzFeed News found an additional 50 more compounds that were likely used for internment in the past but have lost some security features, including barbed wire fencing within compounds used to create rectangular pens, closed passages between buildings, and guard towers, with a small number having been demolished.
Ruser and other experts said this does not suggest the Chinese government is pulling back from its campaign. Many of those facilities likely still operate as low-security camps, he said. The far more important trend in Xinjiang, he said, is the government’s increased use of higher-security prisons and detention facilities.
In response to questions, the Chinese Consulate in New York echoed Zakir's December statement.

"All trainees who received courses in standard spoken and written Chinese, understanding of the law, vocational skills, and deradicalization have completed their training, secured stable employment in the society, and are living a normal life," it said.

All of the detainees interviewed by BuzzFeed News were released too long ago to have spent any time in one of the brand-new facilities — many said that before they escaped China for good, they were kept under de facto house or town arrest, unable to venture past the borders of their villages without obtaining permission from a police officer. Many — especially those with less formal education — had no idea what type of facility they were held in or even why they had been detained in the first place. They said they often drew conclusions based on weekly interrogation sessions, where police asked about actions that made them “untrustworthy.”
An older ethnic Kazakh man named Nurlan Kokteubai recognized the camp he was taken to as soon as he arrived in September 2017. Not long before, it had been a middle school.
“My daughter went to that school,” he said. “I had picked her up there before.”

Smile lines appear on Kokteubai’s deeply wrinkled face when he talks about his daughter, who was born in 1992. She later moved to Kazakhstan, where many ethnic Kazakhs from China emigrate because of the Kazakh government’s resettlement policy for people of Kazakh descent. There, she and her husband campaigned relentlessly for Kokteubai’s release in YouTube videos and long letters to human rights groups. He believes his eventual release in March 2018 was due to her campaign. Inside the camp, instead of classrooms where students like his daughter might have studied math or history, Kokteubai saw dorm rooms overcrowded with as many as 40 or 50 men each sleeping on too few bunk beds.
Though the compound itself wasn’t new, it had many updated features, such as high walls and barbed wire around the compound. And the camp was now dotted with CCTV cameras, which a guard told him could film objects as far as 200 meters away.
Another thing that was new: When you entered the gate, a huge red plaque greeted you. “Let’s learn the spirit of the 19th Communist Party Congress,” it said.
Like Kokteubai, several former detainees interviewed by BuzzFeed News said after arriving, they recognized the facilities in which they were held because they had walked or driven past them, or even visited them in their previous incarnations. But these repurposed facilities were never meant to house prisoners and were not big enough to hold all the Muslim minorities the Chinese government intended to detain.
In early 2019, workers started clearing land to expand a camp south of Ürümqi, in a town called Dabancheng, that had become infamous after reporters from BBC and Reuters visited the year before. The camp at Dabancheng was already one of the largest internment facilities in the region, capable in October 2018 of housing up to 32,500 people, according to an architectural analysis by BuzzFeed News. Since the expansion, it is now capable of housing some 10,000 more people. By November of last year another, separate compound had been completed, this one capable of holding a further 10,000 people — for a total capacity of more than 40,000, comparable to the size of the town of Niagara Falls.
"These facilities display characteristics consistent with extrajudicial detention facilities in the Xinjiang region that CSIS has previously analyzed," said Amy Lehr, director of the human rights program at Washington DC-based think tank CSIS after examining the three camps referenced in this article.


Satellite images comparing the size of Dabancheng to Central Park



Dabancheng
District,
Ürümqi, Xinjiang

Planet Labs; Google Maps

The camp at Dabancheng, Ruser said, “is the main catchment camp for Ürümqi. It’s 2 km (1.2 miles) long and was expanded late last year an extra kilometer with a new facility across the road to the west.” By comparison, the camp is about half the length of Central Park.
Kokteubai never found out precisely why he was detained. Because he’s ethnic Kazakh, he was eventually able to settle in Kazakhstan.

On the day he was released, he expected to feel joy, relief, something. Instead he felt nothing at all.
“I wasn’t happy or sad. I couldn’t feel anything,” he said. “Even when I was reunited with my relatives in Kazakhstan, they asked me why I didn’t seem happy to see them after so long.”
“It’s something I can’t explain,” he said. “It’s like my feelings died while I was in there.” ●

Chinese are a long way from developing successful engines for J-20, as their engines break down after 80 hours of operation, because of which they have to use Russian engines on the J-20, J-10 and other aircraft:
 
Last edited:

MiG-29SMT

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2020
Messages
581
Likes
818
Country flag
The J-20 is not stealthy; it can be easily tracked by modern radars from all angles, and has been repeatedly tracked by Indian Air Force in Ladakh. This is because China still has no way to hide radar reflection from its radar/radome and canopy in the front, and from multiple resonance hotspots such as canard joints and other control surfaces. The radar reflections from the sides and back are even worse.

Rafale is stealthy because it uses a combination of low RCS and ECM to reduce its radar footprint. That means that the effective radar footprint of Rafale (with ECM)
is far less than the J-20, whose radar/radome (big contributor to radar signature) is exposed from the front increasing the RCS significantly. The Chinese material technology is so far behind that the canopy, IRST, canards and canard joints, control surfaces, inlet features and other resonance hotspots also increase the RCS of the J-20 to a point where it can easily be tracked by modern radars. Chinese ECM is also very primitive, and is stolen from SU-35 it imported from Russia very recently. Luckily the Russians know that Chinese are thieves and liars, so they only gave very primitive technology on the SU-35.

The avionics on the J-20 are very primitive, as they are stolen from the SU-35s that China recently imported from Russia. If China did not need to copy SU-35 avionics, there would China order the SU-35 so recently, with a small order of only 24 aircraft? Russia only gave a very downgraded version of its 1990s radar and other avionics on the SU-35 sold to China. Rafale's radar, ECM and other avionics are 2 generations ahead of the avionics on the J-20 that China stole from Russian SU-35. Russia knows that Chinese are thieves and liars, so they only give very primitive and downgraded avionics to China. J-20 is extremely primitive in avionics when compared to the Rafale, and even behind the SU-30MKI. The J-20 radar can be easily jammed by Indian, Russian, and western ECM.

The Rafale's avionics and ECM are 2 generations more advanced than the J-20. The J-20 is a Chinese propaganda turkey, and will be easily shot down by Indian SU-30MKIs and Rafales, as both these aircraft have superior avionics and are already able to track and outsmart the J-20 through superior avionics and ECM technology.
The Rafale has actual stealth through the use of ECM, while the J-20 has poor ECM and a trackable radar signature from all angles (including front because of its exposed radar, canopy and resonance hotspots like exposed canard joints, control surface joints, bumps on inlets, etc), which is why Indian Air Force fighters have already been tracking it in Ladakh. Even SU-30MKI can easily defeat J-20 due to superior avionics and ECM (which can jam J-20's primitive radar).

Compared to Rafale and upgraded SU-30MKI, J-20 is like a 1960s era Mig-21 with poor outdated avionics and will be tracked and shot down quite easily. It's also horribly underpowered (due to use of Russian engines, since Chinese engines failed) and without a cannon, so even worse than the MIg-21 in these ways. The Rafale and SU-30MKI have far superior avionics and ECM, and will easily destroy the J-20 in air combat.

The J-20 is more of a psy ops propaganda barbie doll project designed to impress brainwashed Chinese people in order to keep them under control. These mindless Chinese drones believe whatever propaganda the Chinese government feeds them, not knowing that their Chinese Communist Party government are liars, thieves and criminals. Here is more proof that Chinese Communist Party government are liars, thieves and criminals, so their claims about J-20 and other Chinese weapons cannot be trusted because these claims are just Chinese Communist Party propaganda designed to keep brainwashed Chinese people under the CCP government control as slaves:


🔴 Exiled Chinese Billionaire's Accusations of China (w/ Guo Wengui & Kyle Bass) | RV Classics

Kyle Bass sits down with infamous Chinese businessman Guo Wengui, also known as known as “Miles Kwok,” to hear a series of shocking accusations and predictions revolving around the Chinese government. Kwok provides his perception of the backstory behind several recent high-profile news items, and touches on the Chinese government’s management of the economy. He also unfurls an alarming forecast about Alibaba co-founder Jack Ma. Filmed on October 5, 2018 at an undisclosed location.


#86 China's "5-Fingers" Approach to Strangling India | Cleo Paskal
The India China border dispute continues to spiral out of out control as clashes between both sides turn deadly. But it's part of a much bigger strategy by China, part of what's called Comprehensive National Power, to strangle India, by gaining influence in countries surrounding India, like Nepal and Pakistan, as well as disputed border territories along the Line of Actual Control like Ladakh, the Galwan Valley, and the Arunachal Pradesh. Joining us on this China Unscripted podcast is Cleo Paskal is an Associate Fellow in both the Asia-Pacific program and the Energy, Environment and Resources department at Chatham House, as well as a Non-Resident Senior Fellow for the Indo-Pacific in the Center on Military and Political Power at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies.

Built To Last A BuzzFeed News investigation based on thousands of satellite images reveals a vast, growing infrastructure for long-term detention and incarceration.

China has secretly built scores of massive new prison and internment camps in the past three years, dramatically escalating its campaign against Muslim minorities even as it publicly claimed the detainees had all been set free. The construction of these purpose-built, high-security camps — some capable of housing tens of thousands of people — signals a radical shift away from the country’s previous makeshift use of public buildings, like schools and retirement homes, to a vast and permanent infrastructure for mass detention.
In the most extensive investigation of China’s internment camp system ever done using publicly available satellite images, coupled with dozens of interviews with former detainees, BuzzFeed News identified more than 260 structures built since 2017 and bearing the hallmarks of fortified detention compounds. There is at least one in nearly every county in the far-west region of Xinjiang. During that time, the investigation shows, China has established a sprawling system to detain and incarcerate hundreds of thousands of Uighurs, Kazakhs, and other Muslim minorities, in what is already the largest-scale detention of ethnic and religious minorities since World War II.
These forbidding facilities — including several built or significantly expanded within the last year — are part of the government’s unprecedented campaign of mass detention of more than a million people, which began in late 2016. That year Chen Quanguo, the region’s top official and Communist Party boss, whom the US recently sanctioned over human rights abuses, also put Muslim minorities — more than half the region’s population of about 25 million — under perpetual surveillance via facial recognition cameras, cellphone tracking, checkpoints, and heavy-handed human policing. They are also subject to many other abuses, ranging from sterilization to forced labor.
To detain thousands of people in short order, the government repurposed old schools and other buildings. Then, as the number of detainees swelled, in 2018 the government began building new facilities with far greater security measures and more permanent architectural features, such as heavy concrete walls and guard towers, the BuzzFeed News analysis shows. Prisons often take years to build, but some of these new compounds took less than six months, according to historical satellite data. The government has also added more factories within camp and prison compounds during that time, suggesting the expansion of forced labor within the region. Construction was still ongoing as of this month.
“People are living in horror in these places,” said 49-year-old Zhenishan Berdibek, who was detained in a camp in the Tacheng region for much of 2018. “Some of the younger people were not as tolerant as us — they cried and screamed and shouted.” But Berdibek, a cancer survivor, couldn’t muster the energy. As she watched the younger women get dragged away to solitary confinement, “I lost my hope,” she said. “I wanted to die inside the camp.”
BuzzFeed News identified 268 newly built compounds by cross-referencing blanked-out areas on Baidu Maps — a Google Maps–like tool that’s widely used in China — with images from external satellite data providers. These compounds often contained multiple detention facilities.

This map shows the locations of facilities bearing the hallmarks of prisons and internment camps found in this investigation. Note: Many satellite images in this map are from before 2017, meaning that although you can zoom in, you won’t always be able to see the evidence of possible camps.

Locations identified or corroborated by other sources. Satellite images — perimeter walls and guard towers. Satellite images — walls and barbed wire but no guard towers. Detention Center built before 2017. Likely used for detention in the past but now closed or reduced security.
BuzzFeed News; Source: Analysis of satellite imagery using Google Earth, Planet Labs, and the European Space Agency's Sentinel Hub

Ninety-two of these facilities have been identified or verified as detention centers by other sources, such as government procurement documents, academic research, or, in 19 cases, visits by journalists.
Another 176 facilities have been established by satellite imagery alone. The images frequently show thick walls at the perimeter, and often, barbed wire fencing that creates pens and corridors in the courtyards. Many compounds in the region are walled, but the facilities identified by BuzzFeed News have much heavier fortifications. At 121 of these compounds, they also show guard towers, often built into the perimeter wall.
In response to a detailed list of questions about this article as well as a list of GPS coordinates of facilities identified in this article, the Chinese Consulate in New York said “the issue concerning Xinjiang is by no means about human rights, religion or ethnicity, but about combating violent terrorism and separatism,” adding that it was a “groundless lie” that a million Uighurs have been detained in the region.

“Xinjiang has set up vocational education and training centers in order to root out extreme thoughts, enhance the rule of law awareness through education, improve vocational skills and create employment opportunities for them, so that those affected by extreme and violent ideas can return to society as soon as possible,” the consulate added, saying human rights are protected in the centers and that “trainees have freedom of movement.” But it also compared its program to “compulsory programs for terrorist criminals” it said are taking place in other countries including the US and UK.
China's Foreign Ministry and Baidu did not respond to repeated requests for comment.
The new facilities are scattered across every populated area of the region, and several are large enough to accommodate 10,000 prisoners at a minimum, based on their size and architectural features. (One of the reporters on this story is a licensed architect.)
Unlike early sites, the new facilities appear more permanent and prisonlike, similar in construction to high-security prisons in other parts of China. The most highly fortified compounds offer little space between buildings, tiny concrete-walled yards, heavy masonry construction, and long networks of corridors with cells down either side. Their layouts are cavernous, allowing little natural light to the interior of the buildings. BuzzFeed News could see how rooms were laid out at some high-security facilities by examining historical satellite photos taken as they were being constructed, including photos of buildings without roofs.
With at least tens of thousands of detainees crowded into government buildings repurposed as camps by the end of 2017, the government began building the largest new facilities in the spring of 2018. Several were complete by October 2018, with further facilities built through 2019 and construction of a handful more continuing even now.
The government has said its camps are schools and vocational training centers where detainees are “deradicalized.” The government’s own internal documentation about its policies in Xinjiang has used the term “concentration,” or 集中, to describe “educational schools.”
The government claims that its campaign combats extremism in the region. But most who end up in these facilities are not extremists of any sort.
Downloading WhatsApp, which is banned in China, maintaining ties with family abroad, engaging in prayer, and visiting a foreign website are all offenses for which Muslims have been sent to camps, according to previously leaked documents and interviews with former detainees. Because the government does not consider internment camps to be part of the criminal justice system and none of these behaviors are crimes under Chinese law, no detainees have been formally arrested or charged with a crime, let alone seen a day in court.
The compounds BuzzFeed News identified likely include extrajudicial internment camps — which hold people who are not suspected of any crime — as well as prisons. Both types of facilities have security features that closely resemble each other. Xinjiang’s prison population has grown massively during the government’s campaign: In 2017, the region had 21% of all arrests in China, despite making up less than 2% of the national population — an eightfold increase from the year before, according to a New York Times analysis of government data. Because China’s Communist Party–controlled courts have a more than 99% conviction rate, the overwhelming majority of those arrests likely resulted in convictions.

“One day I saw a pregnant woman in shackles. Another woman had a baby in her arms, she was breastfeeding.”

People detained in the camps told BuzzFeed News they were subjected to torture, hunger, overcrowding, solitary confinement, forced birth control, and a range of other abuses. They said they were put through brainwashing programs focusing on Communist Party propaganda and made to speak only in the Chinese language. Some former detainees said they were forced to labor without pay in factories.
The government heavily restricts the movements of independent journalists and researchers in the region, and heavily censors the internet and its own domestic media. Muslim minorities can be punished for posts on social media. But satellite images that are collected from independent providers remain outside the scope of Chinese government censorship.
Other kinds of evidence have also occasionally leaked out. In September, a drone video emerged showing hundreds of blindfolded men with their heads shaven and their arms tied behind their backs, wearing vests that say “Kashgar Detention Center.” Nathan Ruser, a researcher at the Australian Strategic Policy Institute who has done extensive satellite imagery analysis of the detention and prison systems in Xinjiang, said the video shows a prisoner transfer that took place in April 2019 — months after the government first said the system was for vocational training. Previous analyses, including by the Australian Strategic Policy Institute in November 2018, identified several dozen early camps.
“The internment and assimilation program in Xinjiang has the overall logic of colonial genocides in North America, the formalized racism of apartheid, the industrial-scale internment of Germany's concentration camps, and the police-state penetration into everyday life of North Korea,” said Rian Thum, a scholar of the history of Islam in China at the University of Nottingham.
The campaign has done deep damage to many Muslim minority groups — but especially Uighurs, who are by far the most populous ethnic minority group in Xinjiang and do not have ties to any other country. The Chinese government has heavily penalized expressions of Turkic minority culture, from Kazakh- and Uighur-language education to the practice of Islam outside of state-controlled mosques. This, combined with forced sterilizations, has led some critics to say that the campaign qualifies as genocide under international law. The Trump administration is reportedly discussing whether to formally call it a genocide, and a spokesperson for Joe Biden, the Democratic nominee for president, said on Tuesday that Biden supports the label.
“These are peaceful people in concentration camps,” said Abduweli Ayup, a Uighur linguist who was jailed and later exiled from Xinjiang after opening kindergartens that taught Uighur children in their own language. “They are businessmen and scholars and engineers. They are our musicians. They are doctors. They are shopkeepers, restaurant owners, teachers who used Uighur textbooks.
“These are the pillars of our society. Without them, we cannot exist.”

The Chinese flag is seen behind razor wire at a housing compound in Yangisar, south of Kashgar, in China's western Xinjiang region, June 4, 2019.

The position of Muslim minorities, particularly Uighurs, in China has been fraught since the Communist Party came to power in 1949. But conditions deteriorated quickly starting in 2016, when the government implemented a system of heavy-handed surveillance and policing as a means to push Muslims into a growing internment camp system for “transformation through education.” Chen, the region’s party boss, called on officials to “round up everyone who should be rounded up.”
Thousands were. Tursunay Ziyawudun, who was detained in March 2018, was one of them. When she arrived at the camp’s gates, she saw hundreds of people around her removing their jewelry, shoelaces, and belts. They were being “processed,” she said, to enter the camp through a security checkpoint.

Early on, the government remade schools, retirement homes, hospitals, and other public buildings into internment camps. There were other, older detention centers available too — BuzzFeed News identified 47 built before 2017 that have been used to lock people up in the region.
Some detention facilities are geared toward releasing detainees after several months; in others, detainees may be sentenced to prison terms, said Adrian Zenz, a leading researcher on the abuses in Xinjiang. Three former detainees interviewed by BuzzFeed News said they were held for months in detention without any charges against them — far longer than is allowed by law — before they were transferred to internment camps. The detentions picked up speed in 2017, and numbers in the camps quickly swelled until the inmates were living on top of each other.
BuzzFeed News interviewed 28 former detainees from the region, many of whom described being blindfolded and handcuffed, much like the men shown in the video. Many spoke through an interpreter. They are among a tiny minority of former detainees who were released and left the country — but they described a brutal system that they saw growing and changing with their own eyes.
Most recalled being frequently moved from camp to camp — a tactic that many believed was meant to combat overcrowding in the first generation of makeshift facilities. At the beginning of the campaign, hundreds of people were arriving on a daily basis. New batches of detainees always seemed to be coming and going.
Some former detainees described sleeping two to a twin bed, or even sleeping in shifts when there was not enough room to house all the detainees. Almost all said they received meager quantities of rice, steamed buns, and porridge, and little or no meat or other protein.

Orynbek Koksebek, a 40-year-old ethnic Kazakh, was first detained relatively early in the campaign, around the end of 2017. At first, he slept in a room with seven other men, and everyone had a bed to themselves. But within a few months, he began to notice more and more people arriving. “One day I saw a pregnant woman in shackles,” he said. “Another woman had a baby in her arms, she was breastfeeding.”
By February 2018, there were 15 men in his room, he said.
“Some of us had to share blankets or sleep on the floor,” he said. “They told us later that some of us would be given prison sentences or transferred to other camps.”
Camp officials regularly forced detainees to memorize Communist Party propaganda and Chinese characters in classrooms. But some former detainees said their facilities were too crowded for even this — instead, they had to sit on plastic stools next to their beds and stare at textbooks, sitting with their backs perfectly straight while cameras monitored them. Camp guards told them there were too many people to fit in classrooms.
For Koksebek, the claustrophobia was unbearable.
“There was a window in our room, but it was so high I couldn’t see much other than a patch of sky,” he said. “I used to wish I were a bird so I could have the freedom to fly.”






The camp at Shufu, in Xinjiang, seen by satellite on April 26, 2020. BuzzFeed News; Google Maps

On a frigid, overcast morning last December, Shohrat Zakir, the region’s governor and second-most-powerful official, gave a rare press conference at China’s State Council Information Office, located in a closed compound in central Beijing. The office is one of only a handful of government bodies in China that regularly briefs both local and international journalists, and Zakir sat with four other officials at a long podium at the front of the small room. The officials took the opportunity to tout the region’s economic growth and claim China’s campaign against terrorism in Xinjiang has been a success, calling the US government hypocritical for its criticism of China’s human rights abuses. But Zakir was the one who made international headlines.
Of those held in the camps as “trainees,” Zakir painted a rosy picture. They “have all graduated, and have realized stable employment with the government’s help, improved their quality of life, and are enjoying a happy life,” he said.
Even as reporters were scribbling down his remarks, about 2,500 miles away in Xinjiang, construction was wrapping up on a massive high-security compound near the Uighur heartland county of Shufu, just south of a winding river that flows through a countryside dotted by livestock farms. Shufu is small by Chinese standards, with a population of about 300,000 people. It has a main drag with a post office, a lottery ticket vendor, and eateries selling steamed buns and beef noodle soup. The camp was built on farmland less than a 20-minute drive away.
Before workers started construction last March, the land beneath the Shufu site was farmland too, blanketed with green vegetation. By August, workers had built a thick perimeter enclosure, with guard towers looming in the corners and in the center of walls that rise nearly 6 meters, or more than 19 feet, satellite images show. Next came the buildings inside, organized in U-shaped groups, with two five-story structures alongside a two-story one forming the base of the U. By October, two rows of barbed wire fencing appeared on either side of the main concrete-walled compound, its shadow visible in satellite images.
Just outside the walls, on the western side of the compound, two guard buildings were built — distinguished by the narrow walled pathways leading from them up to the wall that would allow guards to access the guard towers and the tops of the walls for patrols. In front of the entrance, a series of buildings provided space for prison offices and police buildings. In total BuzzFeed News estimates that there is room for approximately 10,500 prisoners at this compound — which would help provide a long-term solution to overcrowding.

“I wasn’t happy or sad. I couldn’t feel anything. Even when I was reunited with my relatives in Kazakhstan, they asked me why I didn’t seem happy to see them after so long.”

Ruser reviewed satellite images of the compound and said it was a newly built detention camp. “The vast majority of camps have watchtowers, internal fencing, and a strong external wall entranceway or exit,” he said.
Unlike the old, repurposed camps, new prisons and camps such as this one have higher security, with gates up to four stories tall and thicker walls along their borders, often with further layers of barbed wire on either side of the main walls. These features suggest they are capable of holding much larger groups of people in long-term detention.
The camps can contain not only cells where detainees sleep, but also classrooms, clinics, canteens, stand-alone shower facilities, solitary confinement rooms, police buildings, administrative offices, and small visitor centers, former detainees told BuzzFeed News. Many of the compounds also contain factories, distinguished by their blue, powder-coated metal roofs and steel frames, which are visible in satellite photos taken while they were being constructed. The police buildings, including for guards and administrative personnel, are usually located by the entrances of the compounds.
The locations of these camps and prisons in Xinjiang are not readily available. However, blanked-out portions of maps on China's Baidu make it possible to use satellite imagery to find and analyze them.
Satellite maps, like Google Earth, are made up of a grid of rectangular tiles. On Baidu, the Chinese search giant that has a map service much like Google’s, BuzzFeed News discovered that spaces containing camps, military bases, or other politically sensitive facilities were overlaid with plain light gray tiles. These “mask” tiles appeared upon zooming in on the location. These look different from the darker gray, watermarked tiles that appear when Baidu cannot load something. The “mask” tiles were also present at other locations where camps had been visited and verified by journalists, though they have since been removed.






Dabancheng District, Ürümqi Prefecture
Baidu; Planet Labs






Shule County, Kashgar Prefecture
Baidu; Planet Labs






Gaochang District, Turpan Prefecture
Baidu; Planet Labs

BuzzFeed News identified the compounds using other satellite maps — provided by Google Earth, Planet Labs, and the European Space Agency’s Sentinel Hub — which do not mask those images. For some locations where high-resolution images were not publicly available, Planet Labs used its own satellite to take new pictures, then provided them to BuzzFeed News. Read more here about how this investigation was conducted.
The images showed the facilities being built over a period of months. Details from the images offer a sense of size and scale: Counting the number of windows in building facades, for example, shows how many stories they contain.
Often, these compounds were built next door to an older prison, sharing parking lots, administrative facilities, and police barracks with the older facility, satellite images show.
BuzzFeed News found an additional 50 more compounds that were likely used for internment in the past but have lost some security features, including barbed wire fencing within compounds used to create rectangular pens, closed passages between buildings, and guard towers, with a small number having been demolished.
Ruser and other experts said this does not suggest the Chinese government is pulling back from its campaign. Many of those facilities likely still operate as low-security camps, he said. The far more important trend in Xinjiang, he said, is the government’s increased use of higher-security prisons and detention facilities.
In response to questions, the Chinese Consulate in New York echoed Zakir's December statement.

"All trainees who received courses in standard spoken and written Chinese, understanding of the law, vocational skills, and deradicalization have completed their training, secured stable employment in the society, and are living a normal life," it said.

All of the detainees interviewed by BuzzFeed News were released too long ago to have spent any time in one of the brand-new facilities — many said that before they escaped China for good, they were kept under de facto house or town arrest, unable to venture past the borders of their villages without obtaining permission from a police officer. Many — especially those with less formal education — had no idea what type of facility they were held in or even why they had been detained in the first place. They said they often drew conclusions based on weekly interrogation sessions, where police asked about actions that made them “untrustworthy.”
An older ethnic Kazakh man named Nurlan Kokteubai recognized the camp he was taken to as soon as he arrived in September 2017. Not long before, it had been a middle school.
“My daughter went to that school,” he said. “I had picked her up there before.”

Smile lines appear on Kokteubai’s deeply wrinkled face when he talks about his daughter, who was born in 1992. She later moved to Kazakhstan, where many ethnic Kazakhs from China emigrate because of the Kazakh government’s resettlement policy for people of Kazakh descent. There, she and her husband campaigned relentlessly for Kokteubai’s release in YouTube videos and long letters to human rights groups. He believes his eventual release in March 2018 was due to her campaign. Inside the camp, instead of classrooms where students like his daughter might have studied math or history, Kokteubai saw dorm rooms overcrowded with as many as 40 or 50 men each sleeping on too few bunk beds.
Though the compound itself wasn’t new, it had many updated features, such as high walls and barbed wire around the compound. And the camp was now dotted with CCTV cameras, which a guard told him could film objects as far as 200 meters away.
Another thing that was new: When you entered the gate, a huge red plaque greeted you. “Let’s learn the spirit of the 19th Communist Party Congress,” it said.
Like Kokteubai, several former detainees interviewed by BuzzFeed News said after arriving, they recognized the facilities in which they were held because they had walked or driven past them, or even visited them in their previous incarnations. But these repurposed facilities were never meant to house prisoners and were not big enough to hold all the Muslim minorities the Chinese government intended to detain.
In early 2019, workers started clearing land to expand a camp south of Ürümqi, in a town called Dabancheng, that had become infamous after reporters from BBC and Reuters visited the year before. The camp at Dabancheng was already one of the largest internment facilities in the region, capable in October 2018 of housing up to 32,500 people, according to an architectural analysis by BuzzFeed News. Since the expansion, it is now capable of housing some 10,000 more people. By November of last year another, separate compound had been completed, this one capable of holding a further 10,000 people — for a total capacity of more than 40,000, comparable to the size of the town of Niagara Falls.
"These facilities display characteristics consistent with extrajudicial detention facilities in the Xinjiang region that CSIS has previously analyzed," said Amy Lehr, director of the human rights program at Washington DC-based think tank CSIS after examining the three camps referenced in this article.


Satellite images comparing the size of Dabancheng to Central Park



Dabancheng
District,
Ürümqi, Xinjiang

Planet Labs; Google Maps

The camp at Dabancheng, Ruser said, “is the main catchment camp for Ürümqi. It’s 2 km (1.2 miles) long and was expanded late last year an extra kilometer with a new facility across the road to the west.” By comparison, the camp is about half the length of Central Park.
Kokteubai never found out precisely why he was detained. Because he’s ethnic Kazakh, he was eventually able to settle in Kazakhstan.

On the day he was released, he expected to feel joy, relief, something. Instead he felt nothing at all.
“I wasn’t happy or sad. I couldn’t feel anything,” he said. “Even when I was reunited with my relatives in Kazakhstan, they asked me why I didn’t seem happy to see them after so long.”
“It’s something I can’t explain,” he said. “It’s like my feelings died while I was in there.” ●

Chinese are a long way from developing successful engines for J-20, as their engines break down after 80 hours of operation, because of which they have to use Russian engines on the J-20, J-10 and other aircraft:
you are really a troll, who gets angry at people just for posting pictures of J-20 on a J-20 thread, thus is better not to feed the troll see you
 

MiG-29SMT

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2020
Messages
581
Likes
818
Country flag
Fair. But I think in general public consensus is that J20 was not very rear-stealth optimized. WS-15 being more effecient than WS-10 will lower its IR output, but I doubt switching to WS-15 will affect radar refelction. Unless WS-15 switch aslo comes with a rear redesign.
agree
 

johnq

Senior Member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
1,385
Likes
2,780
Repeatedly posting graphically enhanced propaganda images along with Chinese propaganda with a laundry list of capabilities that have never been verified is trolling. Only brainwashed Chinese fanboys blindly believe Chinese government/military propaganda lies when all evidence points to the contrary.

Those of us who actually know how much of Chinese Communist government propaganda is lies will continue to call it out. I have given references above (videos and articles) that discuss how the capabilities of J-20 are fictional Chinese Communist government propaganda BS.
The Chinese propagandists have zero proof that J-20 is stealthy, but they are used to blindly believing whatever their Chinese Communist government tells them, and then go to forums to recite the same.

Either you know how much of Chinese propaganda is lies, or you don't. But physics does not change for the Chinese military, and there are enough problems with the design of the J-20 (such as multiple radar resonance hot spots like the gap between the canard joint) that it can be readily tracked even from the front by x band radar. The RCS of the J-20 from sides and back is even worse. Unfortunately the Chinese propagandists here do not understand resonance physics.

I also know for a fact that China does not have the technology to stop its radar/radome from being tracked by radar (including x band), and that is one of the big radar hot spots from the front. The same holds true for the canopy radar reflection. As a result of all these technological limitations, the J-20 is NOT stealthy, and can readily be tracked by long range radar of all bands. The SU-30MKI had no problems tracking it in Ladakh, and neither will the Rafale.

The Chinese propagandist fanboys have no actual proof of J-20s capabilities, other than the word of the Chinese government/military, and I have provided proof that they lied about the Covid-19 human-to-human transmission which helped spread the virus throughout the world. So anyone with an ounce of common sense will know not to trust anything the Chinese Communist Party government says. Unless the whole point of putting graphically altered pictures of the J-20 (many of the pictures don't look real, and more like from a movie) is psy ops for people who don't know that the Chinese government/military are liars.
 

no smoking

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
4,293
Likes
968
Country flag
Fair. But I think in general public consensus is that J20 was not very rear-stealth optimized. WS-15 being more effecient than WS-10 will lower its IR output, but I doubt switching to WS-15 will affect radar refelction. Unless WS-15 switch aslo comes with a rear redesign.
Stealth and aerodynamic are contradicting each other. To some extent, you have to compromise one factor to enhance another factor. The current engine is underpowered, so Chinese designer has to sacrifice the stealth to keep the agility above the minimum requirement by PLAAF.

So it is almost certain that the rear re-design will come, or even some larger changes. However, it won't be that fast. So I expect J-20B will comes out in 5-6 years after WS-15 installation.
 

MiG-29SMT

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2020
Messages
581
Likes
818
Country flag
Stealth and aerodynamic are contradicting each other. To some extent, you have to compromise one factor to enhance another factor. The current engine is underpowered, so Chinese designer has to sacrifice the stealth to keep the agility above the minimum requirement by PLAAF.

So it is almost certain that the rear re-design will come, or even some larger changes. However, it won't be that fast. So I expect J-20B will comes out in 5-6 years after WS-15 installation.
From my personal opinion, it is unlikely it will change the rear even with new engines, why?

simple the wing is a high wing and its trailing edges are too aft, the wing trailing edge extensions tail booms thus are very thick

on the MiG-1.44 were thin

1605743288754.png


1605743681653.png


the wing arrangement thus does not shield the nozzles so the need for the ventral fin is needed
 

johnq

Senior Member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
1,385
Likes
2,780
I am amazed at how ignorant some posters are about stealth and resonance physics. Stealth is not just about having an internal weapons bay and shape of aircraft. The radar/radome, canopy, IRST on the J-20 are all big reflectors of radar from the front. Which is why the J-20 is NOT STEALTHY, and has been repeatedly tracked by SU-30MKI radar in Ladakh. The canards, joints and gaps in between are big radar resonance hotspots from the front.

The J-20 is not stealthy; it can be easily tracked by modern radars from all angles, and has been repeatedly tracked by Indian Air Force in Ladakh. This is because China still has no way to hide radar reflection from its radar/radome and canopy in the front, and from multiple resonance hotspots such as canard joints and other control surfaces. The radar reflections from the sides and back are even worse.

Rafale is stealthy because it uses a combination of low RCS and ECM to reduce its radar footprint. That means that the effective radar footprint of Rafale (with ECM)
is far less than the J-20, whose radar/radome (big contributor to radar signature) is exposed from the front increasing the RCS significantly. The Chinese material technology is so far behind that the canopy, IRST, canards and canard joints, control surfaces, inlet features and other resonance hotspots also increase the RCS of the J-20 to a point where it can easily be tracked by modern radars. Chinese ECM is also very primitive, and is stolen from SU-35 it imported from Russia very recently. Luckily the Russians know that Chinese are thieves and liars, so they only gave very primitive technology on the SU-35.

The avionics on the J-20 are very primitive, as they are stolen from the SU-35s that China recently imported from Russia. If China did not need to steal SU-35 avionics, why would China order the SU-35 so recently, with a small order of only 24 aircraft? Russia only gave a very downgraded version of its 1990s radar and other avionics on the SU-35 sold to China. Rafale's radar, ECM and other avionics are 2 generations ahead of the avionics on the J-20 that China stole from Russian SU-35. Russia knows that Chinese are thieves and liars, so they only give very primitive and downgraded avionics to China. J-20 is extremely primitive in avionics when compared to the Rafale, and even behind the SU-30MKI. The J-20 radar can be easily jammed by Indian, Russian, and western ECM.

The Rafale's avionics and ECM are 2 generations more advanced than the J-20. The J-20 is a Chinese propaganda turkey, and will be easily shot down by Indian SU-30MKIs and Rafales, as both these aircraft have superior avionics and are already able to track and outsmart the J-20 through superior avionics and ECM technology.
The Rafale has actual stealth through the use of ECM, while the J-20 has poor ECM and a trackable radar signature from all angles (including front because of its exposed radar, canopy and resonance hotspots like exposed canard joints, control surface joints, bumps on inlets, etc), which is why Indian Air Force fighters have already been tracking it in Ladakh. Even SU-30MKI can easily defeat J-20 due to superior avionics and ECM (which can jam J-20's primitive radar).

Compared to Rafale and upgraded SU-30MKI, J-20 is like a 1960s era Mig-21 with poor outdated avionics and will be tracked and shot down quite easily. It's also horribly underpowered (due to use of Russian engines, since Chinese engines failed) and without a cannon, so even worse than the Mig-21 in these ways. The Rafale and SU-30MKI have far superior avionics and ECM, and will easily destroy the J-20 in air combat.




nationalinterest.org


If the J-20 Stealth Fighter Is So Amazing Why Is China Buying Russia's Su-35?
A really good question.
nationalinterest.org

nationalinterest.org
If the J-20 Stealth Fighter Is So Amazing Why Is China Buying Russia's Su-35?

"Certainly, the J-20 does represent a leap forward for the Chinese defense-aerospace industry. One day, China will be able to develop and build its own jet engines as well as create world-class mission systems avionics—especially given the investment Beijing continues to make into the defense-aerospace sector. However, that day is not today. If the J-20 was really as capable as some would have you believe, Beijing wouldn’t bother with buying a token fleet of Su-35s—there would simply be no point in doing so."



swarajyamag.com


India’s Rafale Vs China’s J-20: How The Two Fighters Stack Up Against Each Other
Here’s everything you should know.
swarajyamag.com

swarajyamag.com



zeenews.india.com


IAF's Sukhoi Su-30 MKIs can detect and track Chinese Chengdu J-20 stealth fighters
The IAF Sukhoi Su-30MKIs on a sortie in the Northeast managed to track Chengdu J-20 fighters being operated by the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) over Tibet.
zeenews.india.com

zeenews.india.com
IAF's Sukhoi Su-30 MKIs can detect and track Chinese Chengdu J-20 stealth fighters

The IAF Sukhoi Su-30MKIs on a sortie in the Northeast managed to track Chengdu J-20 fighters being operated by the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) over Tibet.

Indian Air Force can track and detect the state-of-art Chinese Chengdu J-20 fighters, which is reported to have stealth capabilities. The Sukhoi Su-30MKI radar can see the Chengdu J-20 hundreds of kilometres away, according to the IAF. India is planning to upgrade the Su-30 MKIs with Russian Phazotron Zhuk-AE Active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars which can track 30 targets and engage six of them simultaneously.
According to the Indian Defence Research Wing, the IAF Su-30MKIs on a sortie in the Northeast managed to track Chengdu J-20 fighters being operated by the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) over Tibet. IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Birender Singh Dhanoa said the "Su-30 radar is good enough and can pick it (J-20) up from many kilometers away". He made the comment a couple of months back when asked if the J-20 which was "invisible to the radar" could be a threat.

The top IAF commander expressed confidence that the IAF was on a strong wicket and the new assets with the force were more than adequate to take on the Chengdu J-20. He added that his force was more than capable of matching the Chinese Air Force as the former has several limitations because their airstrips are located on a very high altitude.
While Chinese defence experts claim the Chengdu J-20 is China's answer to the American fifth-generation stealth fighters like F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II but western experts claim the former is just a fourth-generation medium and long-range fighter with an inferior engine compared to the US stealth fighters.

The Chinese have been building up their infrastructure to allow their fighters to take off from runways in Tibet even though the high altitude means that the jets have several limitations in terms of fuel and weapons payload. India has been countering the Chinese buildup by basing its frontline Su-30 MKIs in the northeast.
Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa had said that IAF's 13-day long wargame Gagan Shakti 2018 had achieved more than its objectives while adding that the mega exercise was not against any country in particular. The IAF finetuned its response and practiced scenarios where nuclear or chemical attacks have been carried out. Gagan Shakti 2018 also saw the IAF move its assets rapidly between the eastern and western sectors.
The 13-day Gagan Shakti 2018 exercises also saw the extensive testing of the newly-inducted homemade HAL Tejas supersonic fighter jet. Check the combat capability of the Tejas and its performance was a key area of focus of the exercises.

The J-20 is more of a psy ops propaganda barbie doll project designed to impress brainwashed Chinese people in order to keep them under control. These mindless Chinese drones believe whatever propaganda the Chinese government feeds them, not knowing that their Chinese Communist Party government are liars, thieves and criminals. Here is more proof that Chinese Communist Party government are liars, thieves and criminals, so their claims about J-20 and other Chinese weapons cannot be trusted because these claims are just Chinese Communist Party propaganda designed to keep brainwashed Chinese people under the CCP government control as slaves:

What’s happening in Xinjiang is genocide

WHAT HAS been known until now about China’s persecution of the Uighurs and other Muslims in Xinjiang province has focused on cultural genocide: concentration camps intended to eradicate their language, traditions and ways of life. This was cruel enough. But new evidence has surfaced that China has also imposed on the Uighurs a form of demographic genocide with forced sterilizations and other measures aimed at reducing the population.

The disclosure comes in an investigative report from the Associated Press and a new research report by scholar Adrian Zenz for the Jamestown Foundation. The new evidence shows that China is systematically using pregnancy checks, forced intrauterine devices, sterilization and even abortion to reduce the population of Uighurs and other Muslims in Xinjiang. Moreover, having too many children is being punished by incarceration in the camps. According to a set of leaked data, obtained and corroborated by the AP, of 484 camp detainees listed in Karakax county in Xinjiang, 149 were there for having too many children, the most common reason for holding them. Detention in camps — which the government claims is vocational education — is written policy in at least three counties for parents with too many children.
The AP reported that authorities have gone hunting for such parents, ripping them away from their families unless they can pay huge fines.

Mr. Zenz found that the Xinjiang authorities planned in 2019 to subject at least 80 percent of women of childbearing age in four rural southern prefectures to intrusive birth prevention surgeries, intrauterine devices or sterilizations. Moreover, in 2018, 80 percent of all new IUD placements in China were performed in Xinjiang — despite the fact that the region makes up only 1.8 percent of the nation’s population.
The campaign to depress the Uighur population appears to be working. Birthrates in the mostly Uighur regions of Hotan and Kashgar plunged by more than 60 percent from 2015 to 2018, the latest year available in government statistics. Across the Xinjiang region, birthrates continue to plummet, falling nearly 24 percent last year alone, compared with just 4.2 percent nationwide.
China long employed coercion in family life with its one-child policy, now abandoned. In Xinjiang, it has sought to whitewash the horrors it is inflicting on people. The new disclosures make it even more urgent that China’s leaders be pressed to account for these atrocities. The measures fall within the definition of genocide in the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, which includes “imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group.” China is a signatory but rejects the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court.

President Trump has just signed a new sanctions law against individuals who are found responsible for abuses in Xinjiang. But China’s treatment of the Uighurs is so reprehensible that it calls into serious question whether China should be permitted to proceed as host of the 2022 Beijing Winter Olympics. Why should the world sports community honor a country that has committed genocide?

🔴 Exiled Chinese Billionaire's Accusations of China (w/ Guo Wengui & Kyle Bass) | RV Classics

Kyle Bass sits down with infamous Chinese businessman Guo Wengui, also known as known as “Miles Kwok,” to hear a series of shocking accusations and predictions revolving around the Chinese government. Kwok provides his perception of the backstory behind several recent high-profile news items, and touches on the Chinese government’s management of the economy. He also unfurls an alarming forecast about Alibaba co-founder Jack Ma. Filmed on October 5, 2018 at an undisclosed location.
 

johnq

Senior Member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
1,385
Likes
2,780
Looks like Chinese propaganda psy ops graphics department is working overtime, posting pretty new graphically-enhanced propaganda images which look like hollywood movie footage.

Interesting how they get so many new photographs of J-20 every week in spite of it being a super duper classified program in China, or why Chinese propagandists must post these pictures every week in forums? Because it's a part of Chinese psy ops propaganda.

The J-20's only worth is psy ops for brainwashed Chinese people. The J-20 has a crappy radar copied from a severely downgraded Russian radar from 90s. The J-20 is not stealthy, despite what brainwashed Chinese fanboys post. Chinese don't have a way to shield J-20 radar/radome or its IRST from being tracked by radar, even x band. This is why Chinese still used canards in J-20 in spite of them being detrimental to stealth. The gaps between canards and body visible from the front are radar resonance hotspots, meaning they make J-20 visible to x-band radar. The same holds true for other joints, gaps, bulges, cracks, corners and edges, moving surfaces and joints, bulges and corners in inlets, etc. The canopy, sides and rear of J-20 are also readily tracked by x-band radar. This is why the J-20 was tracked by the Indian Air Force SU-30MKI radar in Tibet and Ladakh.

The J-20 currently relies on Russian engines, just so it could fly for its propaganda psy ops photo sessions. J-20s radar is copied from severely downgraded Russian radar from 1990s. Why did China have to import SU-35s from Russia if the J-20 aircraft radar has such great technology?

These graphically enhanced pictures of J-20 are a part of Chinese propaganda psy ops designed to impress the Chinese population and others.

The reality is that the J-20 is more a barbie doll propaganda plane based on lies more than anything else. It is currently only flying because of engines imported from Russia. All so it could be used as a propaganda tool.

Anyone with knowledge of basic resonance physics can tell that the canards and joints (as well as other control surfaces and joints) can be tracked even by x-band radar from the front. J-20 does not have a way to mask its radar/radome from being tracked by all bands of radar, even x band. Same goes for canopy, parts of inlets, sides and rear of the plane, which can also be tracked by all bands of radar. All bulges, cracks, joints, gaps, moving surfaces with edges and corners can be tracked by all bands of radar. The gap visible between canard and body from the front will be picked up by all bands of radar.

These are the reasons why it was tracked by SU-30MKI radar at long range. So I will continue to call the J-20 a BS propaganda project, which is all it is. Chinese toys like J-20 are made to look pretty for propaganda psy ops purposes, but don't actually work very well.

J-20 radar is copied from downgraded Russian radars from the 90's and can be jammed by Indian, Russian and western jammers.

Chinese engine technology is so poor that its engines only last 80 hours before needing to be changed. This is why China still uses Russian engines on J-10s and JF-17s exported to Pakistan. Plus Chinese radar technology is so poor that Pakistan uses western radars on all JF-17s bought from China.

None of the Chinese toys work as advertised. Their fighter engines, avionics and aircraft technology is crap, and their pilot training sucks. The first female J-10 pilot died a horrible death after her J-10 engine failed and it crashed. As a result of crashes, PLAAF had to cut pilot training hours and replace them with simulator training, which leads to poorly trained pilots. Chinese engines and radars are such poor quality that Pakistan JF-17s are powered by Russian engines and use western radars and avionics. In any war, Chinese jets will crash left and right from engine failures, and Chinese radars will be disabled by Indian/Russian/western jammers.


Made In China JF-17 Grounded due to structural and technical Issues


Pakistani Airforce frontline fighters are facing critical issues, due to which 40℅ of JF-17 grounded. The PAC JF-17 Thunder, or CAC FC-1 Xiaolong, is a lightweight, single-engine, multi-role combat aircraft developed jointly by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation of China. Tailor-made to suit the needs of poor countries like Pakistan. Designed and developed by China the JF-17 are facing several issues to be 100℅ fits to fight and is operational.


One of the major issue faced by JF-17 fighter jets said to be cracked. Pakistan Airforce authorities have noticed several cracks formations in the lower fairing skin. This is said to be due to damage taken during high G manoeuvres. This is not the only issue plaguing the fighter.


All most 40℅ of JF-17 fighter jets have been grounded for a quick fix. But the issue is there is no quick fix available as of now as per Pakistani experts.


Another major issue is said to be the technical one. The JF-17 electronic systems and devices in the canopy are also malfunctioning I. the dual seater JF-17B. The critical error makes the co-pilot eject on its own. Endangering the pilot’s life. China has blamed Pakistani Airforce and its poor training for the issues as per some sources.


These are not the end, the saga of JF-17 issues even continues to get 40℅ of jets being grounded. Problems are also found with the fuselage, which are developing cracks as well. Reason said to be the high G pressure on the poorly designed structure.


There are cracks in the stake areas as well. The anchor breakages of the JF-17 jets are also facing similar issues due to low quality Made and Designed in China. Moreover, the report also brings to the notice of overweight devices used with the radar.




"Certainly, the J-20 does represent a leap forward for the Chinese defense-aerospace industry. One day, China will be able to develop and build its own jet engines as well as create world-class mission systems avionics—especially given the investment Beijing continues to make into the defense-aerospace sector. However, that day is not today. If the J-20 was really as capable as some would have you believe, Beijing wouldn’t bother with buying a token fleet of Su-35s—there would simply be no point in doing so."



IAF's Sukhoi Su-30 MKIs can detect and track Chinese Chengdu J-20 stealth fighters

The IAF Sukhoi Su-30MKIs on a sortie in the Northeast managed to track Chengdu J-20 fighters being operated by the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) over Tibet.

ndian Air Force can track and detect the state-of-art Chinese Chengdu J-20 fighters, which is reported to have stealth capabilities. The Sukhoi Su-30MKI radar can see the Chengdu J-20 hundreds of kilometres away, according to the IAF. India is planning to upgrade the Su-30 MKIs with Russian Phazotron Zhuk-AE Active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars which can track 30 targets and engage six of them simultaneously.


According to the Indian Defence Research Wing, the IAF Su-30MKIs on a sortie in the Northeast managed to track Chengdu J-20 fighters being operated by the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) over Tibet. IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Birender Singh Dhanoa said the "Su-30 radar is good enough and can pick it (J-20) up from many kilometers away". He made the comment a couple of months back when asked if the J-20 which was "invisible to the radar" could be a threat.





The top IAF commander expressed confidence that the IAF was on a strong wicket and the new assets with the force were more than adequate to take on the Chengdu J-20. He added that his force was more than capable of matching the Chinese Air Force as the former has several limitations because their airstrips are located on a very high altitude.


While Chinese defence experts claim the Chengdu J-20 is China's answer to the American fifth-generation stealth fighters like F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II but western experts claim the former is just a fourth-generation medium and long-range fighter with an inferior engine compared to the US stealth fighters.





The Chinese have been building up their infrastructure to allow their fighters to take off from runways in Tibet even though the high altitude means that the jets have several limitations in terms of fuel and weapons payload. India has been countering the Chinese buildup by basing its frontline Su-30 MKIs in the northeast.


Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa had said that IAF's 13-day long wargame Gagan Shakti 2018 had achieved more than its objectives while adding that the mega exercise was not against any country in particular. The IAF finetuned its response and practiced scenarios where nuclear or chemical attacks have been carried out. Gagan Shakti 2018 also saw the IAF move its assets rapidly between the eastern and western sectors.


The 13-day Gagan Shakti 2018 exercises also saw the extensive testing of the newly-inducted homemade HAL Tejas supersonic fighter jet. Check the combat capability of the Tejas and its performance was a key area of focus of the exercises.
 
Last edited:

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top