J-10 or the IAI Lavi?

[Longewala]

Oh everybody copies and steals. The Americans the brits The japenese The Koreans and now the Chinese.

In the process they have built a semiconductor and quantum computing capability that rivals the best in world. They are building a parallel tech infrastructure to compete with (America) the west and almost half the world is signing on.

Hell even the Soviets didn't come close.

We need to stop whining and get our arses moving. Enough excuses.

Agree re no excuses and the need to build our own infrastructure and technology

But we won't get there using either the Chini model based on utter theft or the Korean / Taiwan model based on massive tech and funding support from US

And no, nobody steals as much as the Chinese, and we are not going by their social or economic model.

 

[rkhanna]

And no, nobody steals as much as the Chinese, and we are not going by their social or economic model

Hmmm please Google the echelon program and the industrial espionage that the west did for nearly 4+ decades.

Hell the American and British Missle program and NASA has been built off the Germans and the V2

And btw the Lavi r&d was bought and paid for by the chinese in the form of a ToT from which they build.

The j11 junk spawned an entire aerospace mil industrial complex from engines to software to radar.

Their UAV industry is again second to only America.

Yes the first couple of generations will be sub-par. But the Japanese in the 70s and 80s and Koreans in the 90s and 2000s were the same. Look at them now.

They will soon have 24 odd j20s a year coming off the production line ( can they afford such an expensive plane in large numbers is a different story)

Stealing and reverse engineering aero vehicles is not so easy. Just look at the the sheer time it took to reverse engineer the copyhawk. It needs a baseline tech and r&d infra to first obsorb it.

The chinese (huawei) are rumoured to have built their 5G tech by hacking a Canadian company. Now they are rolling it out across their client states faster and cheaper than anybody else on the planet. The impact on their own domestic tech enabled economy is going to be astronomical not to mention their global geopolitical leverage.

Backed by their proficiency in AI, Quantum computing and semiconductor is going to have serious implications on their Mil Industrial complex going forward when data centric warfare is going to be the norm. The control the global supply chain where even US SOCOM is now realising that their comms could be compromised because so much of their kit has china sourced parts

If we look down on the chinese then doom on us. That's exactly what we did in 62.

And btw in India we have legitimate legal access to tech - type 209 submarine tech - what happened to the production line after the 5 built ? What about the Marut and Jaguar program. Only because of the LCA have we finally dipped out established a baseline in aerospace hardware and software but we are already behind the curve.

Hell even in the private sector - Tatas sat on fiat and mercedes TOT for decades with no evolution. Mahindras etc etc. Look at Jio - the best they can do is blatent rip offs of watsapp and zoom and them get funded by Google and Facebook. Zero drive to build IP.


We as a people need to get out of our reactive defensive bullshit and actually do something. Let's stop this mindless mental masturbation

 

[rkhanna]

Agree re no excuses and the need to build our own infrastructure and technology

But we won't get there using either the Chini model based on utter theft or the Korean / Taiwan model based on massive tech and funding support from US

And no, nobody steals as much as the Chinese, and we are not going by their social or economic model.

Also don't get me wrong. I am not saying er copy the chinese. I personally would loath that. But we need to develop our own way. Unfortunately for a poor country like ours the capital will always chase the low hanging fruit a of screw driver giri because that's where the profit it.

We need a national policy directive from people who actually know what they are doing and can galvenize the country (public and private) towards an overarching goal. The Americans and Brits also did that post WWII. Today it's a random free for all just looking at short term benefit

 

[Longewala]

Hmmm please Google the echelon program and the industrial espionage that the west did for nearly 4+ decades.

Hell the American and British Missle program and NASA has been built off the Germans and the V2

And btw the Lavi r&d was bought and paid for by the chinese in the form of a ToT from which they build.

The j11 junk spawned an entire aerospace mil industrial complex from engines to software to radar.

Their UAV industry is again second to only America.

Yes the first couple of generations will be sub-par. But the Japanese in the 70s and 80s and Koreans in the 90s and 2000s were the same. Look at them now.

They will soon have 24 odd j20s a year coming off the production line ( can they afford such an expensive plane in large numbers is a different story)

Stealing and reverse engineering aero vehicles is not so easy. Just look at the the sheer time it took to reverse engineer the copyhawk. It needs a baseline tech and r&d infra to first obsorb it.

The chinese (huawei) are rumoured to have built their 5G tech by hacking a Canadian company. Now they are rolling it out across their client states faster and cheaper than anybody else on the planet. The impact on their own domestic tech enabled economy is going to be astronomical not to mention their global geopolitical leverage.

Backed by their proficiency in AI, Quantum computing and semiconductor is going to have serious implications on their Mil Industrial complex going forward when data centric warfare is going to be the norm. The control the global supply chain where even US SOCOM is now realising that their comms could be compromised because so much of their kit has china sourced parts

If we look down on the chinese then doom on us. That's exactly what we did in 62.

And btw in India we have legitimate legal access to tech - type 209 submarine tech - what happened to the production line after the 5 built ? What about the Marut and Jaguar program. Only because of the LCA have we finally dipped out established a baseline in aerospace hardware and software but we are already behind the curve.

Hell even in the private sector - Tatas sat on fiat and mercedes TOT for decades with no evolution. Mahindras etc etc. Look at Jio - the best they can do is blatent rip offs of watsapp and zoom and them get funded by Google and Facebook. Zero drive to build IP.


We as a people need to get out of our reactive defensive bullshit and actually do something. Let's stop this mindless mental masturbation

It's a matter of degree.
The extent and brazenness of IP theft the Chinese carry out is beyond anyone else.

One thing imho we do need to copy though from the Chinese is the willingness to do with homegrown products that are not world class, because you can't get there in one generation.

Look at the picture above
You see the J-7 and J-8s? Would the IAF accepted a fully indigenous, souped up Mig-21 variant in the 80s ?

The Tejas is a decent enough effort
The IAF could have added 7-8 squadrons of basic Tejas variants to replace Mig-21 / Jaguar over the past decade, just to give the program time to grow and develop the industrial base
Would have cost just a billion a year and still been a huge upgrade.

Did we do it? After all the super duper Chinese managed with initial J-10 variants that were c**p.
But we are too happy to point at evolved Chinese efforts with envy after they mature and compete with world class, but not the decades of self belief with intermediate products that were not.

 

[rkhanna]

It's a matter of degree.
The extent and brazenness of IP theft the Chinese carry out is beyond anyone else.

Nah I simply disagree on this. The chinese are doing their copying in the 90s/2000s / now. The west did it in the 40/50/60/70s that all.

Not to forget that for 300 years the west stole labour, treasure and natural resources from most of the world

But we are too happy to point at evolved Chinese efforts with envy after they mature and compete with world class, but not the decades of self belief with intermediate products that were not.

Not envy sir, shame.

Btw the Israelis too followed the same model of putting out substandard products into production and then evolving/improving then over time. Just look at the Merkava