ITCM cruise missiles

[Maharaj samudragupt]

I would not assume things to be so simple.
It was an important objective of past US administrations to try to control India's acquisition of vital technologies and capabilities.

The NPT came into existence after India's Smiling Buddha nuclear test.
Similarly the MTCR came into existence after our Prithvi and Agni Ballis Missile tests.

And how can we forget about the arm twisting of the Russian Government led by Boris Yeltsin by the US to renege on the proposed transfer of Cryogenic Engine technology to ISRO. Even though it was for a purely civilian space programme. No country uses cryogenic engines in their ICBM's or IRBM's.

There are many ways to put pressure on Governments. Withholding IMF and World Bank loans. Putting barriers to exports etc. Talking only about economic coercion.
Other means are also available.

In recent times the Indian Governments move for data localisation by the MNC's has been stalled due to lobbying and other pressure.

As far as technology goes the main sensor on an sea skimming or land hugging cruise missile is the Radio Altimeter. To prevent the missile from crashing into the sea/ground. Along with the other sensors like gyroscopes, terminal seeker, terrain matching software etc. And the engine. Saturn Corporation of Russia was willing to supply the cruise missile engine. So how difficult was the technology.

In contrast, is the technology of an ICBM simpler than an cruise missile. We even managed to develop BVR air to air missiles. Many believe it is an extremely complex technology.

There is a suspicion that reasons other than science were responsible for the delay in launching an indigenous anti ship missile programme.

Brodda , dont we need a small range anti ship missile ?
I am obsessed with anti ship missile since few days , its sad that all the missiles we use are imported.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Brodda , dont we need a small range anti ship missile

Short range belongs to DRDO NASM missile series.
NASM-SR and NASM-ER. NASM-ER and early versions of ITCM will be somewhat Indian equivalents of Harpoon missiles.

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

Short range belongs to DRDO NASM missile series.
NASM-SR and NASM-ER. NASM-ER and early versions of ITCM will be somewhat Indian equivalents of Harpoon missiles.

I wish they make a ship launched variant of nasm sr , cam be mounted on offshore patrol vessles.

 

[Gessler]

It is first missile of ITCM series, a program different from Nirbhay.
Will include subsonic, supersonic and hypersonic, short, medium and long range cruise missiles family based on one common platform.

Like Prithvi and Agni family.

A "common platform" for subsonic & hypersonic missiles?

Those 2 types of missiles will involve entirely different propulsion concepts, lift bodies & materials. What would be the "common" part?

 

[fire starter]

Short range belongs to DRDO NASM missile series.
NASM-SR and NASM-ER. NASM-ER and early versions of ITCM will be somewhat Indian equivalents of Harpoon missiles.

There is NASM LR also a shore launched missile.

 

[Tridev123]

Brodda , dont we need a small range anti ship missile ?
I am obsessed with anti ship missile since few days , its sad that all the missiles we use are imported.

The situation has changed now
As @Indx TechStyle enunciated we are moving ahead with the full range of anti ship missiles. Short, Medium and Long range. I anticipate first flight tests of the system within 2 years. Maybe less.

First target maybe an simulated electronic target( without warhead). Then probably our old decommissioned ships.

The anti ship missiles will be
1.Land launched from Coastal batteries.
2.Ship launched
3.Aircraft launched - both planes and helicopters
4.Submarine launched
5.Drone launched?.

I believe we had the technical capability for quite some time. Only thing was that the option was not exercised in the past.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

A "common platform" for subsonic & hypersonic missiles?

Those 2 types of missiles will involve entirely different propulsion concepts, lift bodies & materials. What would be the "common" part?

The last article I read before testing of this missile quoted DRDO saying they are developing a series of cruise missiles called ITCM with various ranges, speeds and platforms (air/surface/submarine).

The assumption of a common platform comes from there.

 

[lixun]

Brodda , dont we need a small range anti ship missile ?
I am obsessed with anti ship missile since few days , its sad that all the missiles we use are imported.

It depends on what your enemy is, and what the tactics of the Indian Navy are. The BrahMos supersonic missile is enough. The subsonic missile is mainly compact and low in price. It can be carried on small ships and aircraft, but Poor penetration ability,
For example, the Chinese YJ83 missile,
Subsonic missiles,
Able to fly over the sea at an altitude of 30m,
The end penetration speed is 1.2M,
Range of 200KM
Radar and infrared combined guidance,
It can be said that this is a pretty good missile, but its penetration capability is not good.
China used 8 YJ83s to simulate attacks on 054A, and 054A intercepted 7 of them.
Moreover, Pakistan’s 054AP air defense capability is stronger than China’s, so India has to find ways to increase the number of ships using BrahMos missiles.

 

[lixun]

A "common platform" for subsonic & hypersonic missiles?

Those 2 types of missiles will involve entirely different propulsion concepts, lift bodies & materials. What would be the "common" part?

The universal launcher can meet the requirements,

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Moreover, Pakistan’s 054AP air defense capability is stronger than China’s

It doesn't even come close to front line or even current generation ships of China.

54AP FFG itself uses all Chinese air defense missiles anyway. It is the best and a small frigate which Pak can afford.

 

[lixun]

It doesn't even come close to front line or even current generation ships of China.

54AP FFG itself uses all Chinese air defense missiles anyway. It is the best and a small frigate which Pak can afford.

First, Pakistan’s 054AP has a phased array radar,
Second, Pakistan uses HHQ16B with a range of 70KM
Third, on the 054AP is a door 1130 and HHQ10, which is the short-range defense system on the 055 destroyer.

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

India should build ship launched vls versons of shaurya missile.
Speed is mach 7.5, it is already used in slbm role.

 

[amit6371]

Should the nose be more pointy ?

It depends on the flight speed. At high mach no., blunt nose is used to reduce wave drag like Space Shuttle.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

First, Pakistan’s 054AP has a phased array radar,
Second, Pakistan uses HHQ16B with a range of 70KM
Third, on the 054AP is a door 1130 and HHQ10, which is the short-range defense system on the 055 destroyer.

It clearly fails to explain the fallacy that how come Pakistani FFG is superior to an extent what Chinese DDG and FFG don't have.

It doesn't come even close to advanced FFGs and DDGs being churned out by major navies around the world in size or armament. It is somehat similar to second tier ships used by France, UK and old Russian ships. Again, it's best what Pakistan can afford.

 

[lixun]

It clearly fails to explain the fallacy that how come Pakistani FFG is superior to an extent what Chinese DDG and FFG don't have.

It doesn't come even close to advanced FFGs and DDGs being churned out by major navies around the world in size or armament. It is somehat similar to second tier ships used by France, UK and old Russian ships. Again, it's best what Pakistan can afford.

I just said 054AP is better than 054A
And 054AP is a pretty good FFG, air defense, anti-ship, and anti-submarine are all pretty good, much better than those old ships. Similar to Shivalik-class

 

[Gessler]

The last article I read before testing of this missile quoted DRDO saying they are developing a series of cruise missiles called ITCM with various ranges, speeds and platforms (air/surface/submarine).

The assumption of a common platform comes from there.

Was the word supersonic or hypersonic mentioned?

It's very likely that ITCM family will incorporate land, air, ship & sub-launched variants (it was always the intention with Nirbhay, and ITCM is nothing but a modified/improved Nirbhay with indigenous engine instead of Saturn 36MT).

But I don't see how it can extend to missiles like supersonic & hypersonic platforms which will involve Ramjet & Scramjet propulsion (already being realized via other projects i.e. nothing to do with Nirbhay).

Unless....the "ITCM" is some sort of overarching program to develop all kinds of platforms, and not specific to one design/type. Like an IGMDP for cruise missiles.

 

[Gessler]

I just said 054AP is better than 054A
And 054AP is a pretty good FFG, air defense, anti-ship, and anti-submarine are all pretty good, much better than those old ships. Similar to Shivalik-class

Wrong thread to discuss this (mods plz move this someplace more appropriate)

But,

On several counts I would rate 054AP as superior to Talwar Batch-1/2 as well as Shivalik.

VLS-launched Medium range-SAM is a serious capability upgrade over arm-launcher types which is what Indian frigates currently have (Shivalik has VLS Barak-1 but that's only a short-range self-defence SAM).

Even a relatively sh!tty APAR radar can offer several capabilities that the Indian frigates' Fregat-M2EM main radars cannot. The PLAN's 054A has a Chinese copy of the same Fregat radar so with APAR the 054AP would be superior to 054A on that count.

Talwar Batch-3/4 would incorporate VLS 9M317ME so that advantage would be alleviated. But the APAR will retain an edge.

Either way, the Project-17A frigates that India is currently building would blow all these ships out of the water in terms of any capability set. With MFSTAR & Lanza APARs + Barak-8 it'll be several leagues ahead of the Chinese APAR + missiles.

And the edge in ASuW is already retained by Indian frigates even today thanks to BrahMos.

 

[porky_kicker]

Was the word supersonic or hypersonic mentioned?

It's very likely that ITCM family will incorporate land, air, ship & sub-launched variants (it was always the intention with Nirbhay, and ITCM is nothing but a modified/improved Nirbhay with indigenous engine instead of Saturn 36MT).

But I don't see how it can extend to missiles like supersonic & hypersonic platforms which will involve Ramjet & Scramjet propulsion (already being realized via other projects i.e. nothing to do with Nirbhay).

Unless....the "ITCM" is some sort of overarching program to develop all kinds of platforms, and not specific to one design/type. Like an IGMDP for cruise missiles.

AFAIK ITCM family includes submarine ship air land launched cruise missiles , all subsonic except for DSCM with supersonic terminal stage

NASM-SR & NASM-MR even though subsonic belongs to different family

 

[Indx TechStyle]

I just said 054AP is better than 054A
And 054AP is a pretty good FFG, air defense, anti-ship, and anti-submarine are all pretty good, much better than those old ships. Similar to Shivalik-class

So what you said was wrong earlier. It yet doesn't match what is possessed by major powers.

Was the word supersonic or hypersonic mentioned?

It's very likely that ITCM family will incorporate land, air, ship & sub-launched variants (it was always the intention with Nirbhay, and ITCM is nothing but a modified/improved Nirbhay with indigenous engine instead of Saturn 36MT).

But I don't see how it can extend to missiles like supersonic & hypersonic platforms which will involve Ramjet & Scramjet propulsion (already being realized via other projects i.e. nothing to do with Nirbhay).

Unless....the "ITCM" is some sort of overarching program to develop all kinds of platforms, and not specific to one design/type. Like an IGMDP for cruise missiles.

An OnManorama article. Trying to find.

 

[no smoking]

It is first missile of ITCM series, a program different from Nirbhay.
Will include subsonic, supersonic and hypersonic, short, medium and long range cruise missiles family based on one common platform.

Like Prithvi and Agni family.

Curiously, how can one develop subsonic, supersonic and hypersonic cruise missiles on ONE COMMON PLATFORM?
With different speed, it requires different engines, different material and different aerodynamic outfit. Even the seeker will have different function specificities.