Israel attacks Gaza aid fleet

Calanen

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2009
Messages
192
Likes
12
^^Are you kidding me? The peace activists intended a confrontation? If they did, then they would have set out on boats to attack the Israeli Navy ships. They were defending themselves in international waters from an illegal search by the security forces of a country that had NO JURISDICTION. I don't know how to make this any simpler. If anyone was desiring a confrontation, it was the Israelis, as they KNOWINGLY INVADED a ship in international waters.

The peace activists had a right to defend themselves and their ship if they thought they were in danger.
The peace activists sing 'Jews remember Khaibar, the army of Mohammed is returning.' And the woman says she will either go to gaza or be a martyr. These were not peace protesters, but a group of angry islamic radicals on a suicide mission - using the humanitarian mission as cover to attack IDF.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3L7OV414Kk&feature=player_embedded

You are wrong on the law.

Israel has imposed a blockade on Gaza because they are in an armed conflict with HAMAS. They don't have much of a choice really, it's the only option left open to them. When they had a conventional attack, HAMAS used civilians as human shields and moved military targets into hospitals and schools, screaming 'war crime' at the top of its lungs. So - Israel is left with sanctions - which are then described as 'collective punishment'. HAMAS hates the sanctions, and wants them gone.

So, in order to say, get a ship full of floating jihadis who want to be martyrs, and have them beat the hell out of Israeli commandos who then have to defend themselves.

Under San Remo, a naval force can intercept a ship running a blockade, anywhere, even in international waters. Once those 'activists' picked up weapons, they became combatants, and could have been killed with extreme prejudice. Israel showed restraint.

Two law professors who say that Israel adhered to international law:

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions...e_gaz a_flotilla_conflict_is_an_openand.html
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...rolls-with-the-law-of-the-sea/article1589981/

SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT

Neutral merchant vessels

67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
(b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;
(c) act as auxiliaries to the enemy s armed forces;
(d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy s intelligence system;
(e) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or
(f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.

68. Any attack on these vessels is subject to the basic rules in paragraphs 38-46.

69. The mere fact that a neutral merchant vessel is armed provides no grounds for attacking it.

Neutral civil aircraft

70. Civil aircraft bearing the marks of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband, and, after prior warning or interception, they intentionally and clearly refuse to divert from their destination, or intentionally and clearly refuse to proceed for visit and search to a belligerent airfield that is safe for the type of aircraft involved and reasonably accessible;
(b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;
(c) act as auxiliaries to the enemy's armed forces;
(d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy's intelligence system; or
(e) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy's military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and, after prior warning or interception, they intentionally and clearly refuse to divert from their destination, or intentionally and clearly refuse to proceed for visit and search to a belligerent airfield that is safe for the type of aircraft involved and reasonably accessible.

71. Any attack on these aircraft is subject to the basic rules in paragraphs 38-46.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/FULL/560?OpenDocument

They were attacked with knives, poles, axes, chains, as soon as they landed by islamic extremists. As Netenyahu said 'This wasnt the Love Boat.'

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Known_Unknown

Devil's Advocate
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2009
Messages
2,626
Likes
1,670
The peace activists sing 'Jews remember Khaibar, the army of Mohammed is returning.' And the woman says she will either go to gaza or be a martyr. These were not peace protesters, but a group of angry islamic radicals on a suicide mission - using the humanitarian mission as cover to attack IDF.
Let's remove our ideological glasses and deal with facts, not fantasies. Your entire (fallacious) argument is based upon the idea that:

1. Under San Remo, Israel had the right to intercept ships breaking a lawful blockade.
2. The Turkish ships were breaking the blockade.
3. Hence Israel was justified in sending commandoes to land on those ships, and the resistance of the protesters was illegal.

The NY daily mail article is by Alan Dershowitz. Even if you pretend to not know who he is, the fact is, that he is a well known pro-Israeli academic, lobbyist and shill, whose arguments have no merit in my book. People like him are a disgrace to their professions since they let their ideological positions colour their professional judgements thereby losing any chance of convincing laymen that they are putting forth a honest argument.

As to the second article, which uses the San Remo as Israeli defence, two points:

1. First, Israel is not a party to San Remo, hence its provisions don't apply to it.
2. Even if Israel was a party to San Remo, article 103 of the convention states:


103. If the civilian population of the blockaded territory is inadequately provided with food and other objects essential for its survival, the blockading party must provide for free passage of such foodstuffs and other essential supplies, subject to:

(a) the right to prescribe the technical arrangements, including search, under which such passage is permitted; and
(b) the condition that the distribution of such supplies shall be made under the local supervision of a Protecting Power or a humanitarian organization which offers guarantees of impartiality, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross.
In short, Israel had no right to board the ship and force it to an Israeli port instead of Gaza.

Hence,

You are wrong on the law.
 

Calanen

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2009
Messages
192
Likes
12
Let's remove our ideological glasses and deal with facts, not fantasies. Your entire (fallacious) argument is based upon the idea that:
The NY daily mail article is by Alan Dershowitz. Even if you pretend to not know who he is, the fact is, that he is a well known pro-Israeli academic, lobbyist and shill, whose arguments have no merit in my book. People like him are a disgrace to their professions since they let their ideological positions colour their professional judgements thereby losing any chance of convincing laymen that they are putting forth a honest argument.
This is what is known as an ad hominem attack, a fallacious method of reasoning - attacking the man personally instead of his argument. Jews can be Professors of Law too, and have opinions which may be correct in spite of their 'Jewishness'. He is a Professor of Law at Harvard. Perhaps say why he what he says is wrong rather than attacking the man personally, if you can. In fact, why not pen a scholarly journal article refuting his claims, and you can disprove a Harvard Law Professor as well as be the hero of the jihadi internetz - we'll be waiting right here for you to do so.
1. First, Israel is not a party to San Remo, hence its provisions don't apply to it.
San Remo is a non-binding convention as to the international law of the sea. Nobody is a party to it, but it is taken to set out the law of the sea in relation to armed conflicts. International law, especially as to war, applies to everyone.

2. Even if Israel was a party to San Remo, article 103 of the convention states:
And what law degree do you have that means you know better than a Professor. The Convention says they must let food in, and they do. Through both sides of the border. That provision of the convention does not mean that people carrying knives and daggers can blow through blockades in any way they want. They were invited to go to Ashdod, but wished to provoke a confrontation in order to attack Israeli soldiers so that they could be a shahid.

In short, Israel had no right to board the ship and force it to an Israeli port instead of Gaza.
Says you, on the basis of no supporting documentation and evidence, just an ad hominem attack on other scholars and your own opinion - which is not a fact, it's just an unqualified and non-expert opinion. 103 also states that Israeli can determine the technical arrangements under which such supplies can be delivered. It is also doubtful that there is any real shortages of essentials in Gaza in any case.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Known_Unknown

Devil's Advocate
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2009
Messages
2,626
Likes
1,670
^^ Alan Dershowitz is Jewish? You brought that up, not me. And me hero of jihadi internetz?


Man, you're so far off the mark......besides, since you're not willing to debate my "non-expert" opinion on matters, what are you doing here? All of us are "non-experts". This is a discussion forum, not a Law Society.

Maybe you should only browse lawyers' forums and argue with them instead. cccccccccccccccccccc
 

Calanen

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2009
Messages
192
Likes
12
In other news, the NEFA Foundation has a photo of the IHH sponsoring a celebration of a dead HAMAS figure as a martyr, this was Mohammad Said Seyam, the HAMAS Minister of the Interior and National Security, who sadly, was killed by an Israeli Air raid on 15 January 2009:



Nice moderate 'humanitarian' organisation.

http://www.nefafoundation.org/miscellaneous/ihhhamas.pdf
 

nandu

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2009
Messages
1,913
Likes
163
Collective Arab plan to break siege?


Arab League Secretary General Amr Moussa of Egypt shakes hands with a Palestinian in Zeitoun on Sunday.

Amr Moussa entry into Gaza fuels speculation

Arab League head Amr Moussa on Sunday entered Gaza from the Egyptian side, fuelling speculation that a collective Arab plan to break the Israeli siege of the coastal strip maybe on the anvil.

Soon after entering Gaza from the Rafah border crossing on Sunday morning, Mr. Moussa said: "This blockade...must be lifted and must be broken and the Arab League decision is very clear in this regard." He added that he was looking for support from Arab governments for the implementation of the Arab League resolution demanding the lifting of the siege.

Mr. Moussa is the highest ranking Arab official to enter Gaza after Hamas established control over the costal strip in 2007. The visit follows Israel's attack on a humanitarian aid ship on May 31, which has generated a global outcry.

While he was received by leaders from Hamas, Mr. Moussa made it clear that his visit should not be construed as an expression of support for any Palestinian faction. Mr. Moussa chose to meet head of the Hamas government Ismail Haniyeh not in his office, but at his residence later in the day.

Nevertheless, Hamas Health Minister Basim Naeem said Mr. Moussa's visit signalled that "the boycott between Gaza and the Arab nation was broken". He hoped that the visit would "be the start of a practical plan to lift the [Israeli] blockade of Gaza once and for all, in a complete and comprehensive way".

However, later on Sunday, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu rejected the lifting of the naval blockade, but expressed readiness to ease the three-year old siege on Gaza.

"Israel will continue to prevent ships from reaching Gaza, while simultaneously easing the blockade," Mr. Netanyahu was quoted as saying.

According to the Israeli daily Haaretz, with this declaration, made during the course of a meeting with Ministers belonging to the Likud party, Mr. Netanyahu rejected the proposal made by the Foreign Ministers of France, Spain and Italy, that Gaza-bound ships be searched by European inspectors in Cyprus.

Also on Sunday, Mr. Netanyahu announced that the former Supreme Court Justice, Yaakov Tirkel, would head the Israeli investigation into the events that led to the raid on the Gaza-bound aid flotilla nearly two weeks ago.

http://beta.thehindu.com/news/international/article454819.ece
 

plugwater

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2009
Messages
4,154
Likes
1,081
Obama backs Israel's inquiry into flotilla raid

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The White House backs Israel's inquiry into its deadly raid last month on a flotilla trying to break a blockade against Gaza, saying the independent public commission is "an important step forward."

Press Secretary Robert Gibbs says Israel's panel can meet the standard of a "prompt, impartial, credible and transparent investigation."

On Sunday, Israel announced a three-person commission to investigate the May 31 raid, which left nine people dead. The panel will be headed by a judge, with two international observers, Lord William David Trimble of Ireland, a Nobel Peace Prize laureate; and retired Brig. Gen. Ken Watkin, the former chief military prosecutor in Canada.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...BAMA?SITE=CAANR&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
 

AkhandBharat

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2009
Messages
542
Likes
79
A resurgent Arab league under the leadership of Turkey will be one of the biggest challenges of barack oh'bummer. I don't foresee any win-win situation coming out of this for US policymakers if Turkey is involved.

Barack Oh'Bummer's test is here.
 

ejazr

Ambassador
Joined
Oct 8, 2009
Messages
4,523
Likes
1,388
Posting old pictures of Gaza wont change the fact that the blockade is illegal. Even if granted that weapons should not be allowed to Gaza, what logic states that Coriander and chocolate can be weapons. These items are on the not allowed list. As I have said before even the friends of Israel have taken the Israeli leadership to task for failing to see what their actions have done. Anyone who doesn't see the failure that the Israeli govt. policies resulted in ---even from the Israeli pov, is not helping Israel one bit.


Red Cross: Gaza blockade illegal


The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) has described Israel's blockade of the Gaza Strip as a violation of the Geneva Conventions and called on the Israeli government to lift it.

In a statement released on Monday, the organisation called the blockade "collective punishment", a crime under international law. It described Gaza as a territory plagued by frequent power cuts, a ruined economy, and a collapsed health care system.

"The closure imposed on the Gaza Strip is about to enter its fourth year, choking off any real possibility of economic development," the ICRC said.

"Gazans continue to suffer from unemployment, poverty and warfare, while the quality of Gaza's health care system has reached an all-time low."

Crippling shortages


Israeli officials insist that they provide enough "humanitarian aid" to cover Gaza's basic needs.

But the ICRC - a neutral organisation - said the meagre list of goods allowed into Gaza doesn't meet the needs of the territory's 1.5 million inhabitants.

The shortages are particularly dire in Gaza's health care system, where the ICRC said more than 100 essential medicines - including chemotherapy and hemophilia drugs - are unavailable. Many basic medical supplies, like colonoscopy bags, are also barred from Gaza and routine blackouts cause damage to medical equipment.

"The state of the health-care system in Gaza has never been worse," Eileen Daly, the ICRC's health co-ordinator in Gaza, said.

"Thousands of patients could go without treatment, and the long-term outlook will be increasingly worrisome."

B'Tselem, an Israeli human rights organisation, released its own report on Monday documenting dire conditions in the Palestinian territories. The group noted that 95 per cent of Gaza's factories have closed, that 98 per cent of residents suffer from blackouts, and that 93 per cent of Gaza's water is polluted.

Amr Moussa, the secretary-general of the Arab League, on Sunday called for an end to the blockade.

Hamas criticised

The ICRC also criticised Hamas, the Islamic movement which controls Gaza, for preventing the ICRC from visiting Gilad Shalit, the Israeli soldier captured in 2006. Shalit is entitled to visits from the Red Cross under international law.

"In violation of international humanitarian law, [Hamas] has also refused to allow him to get in touch with his family," the ICRC said.

But the bulk of the ICRC's criticism was directed at Israel's blockade. In addition to the health care problems, the ICRC noted that 40 per cent of Gaza's residents are not connected to a sewage system, and that restrictions on movement have driven many farmers and fishermen into poverty.

One-third of Gaza's farmland is located in a "buffer zone" controlled by the Israeli army, and boats are only allowed to fish within three nautical miles of Gaza's coast.

The ICRC demanded that both Israel and the Hamas government "allow and facilitate rapid and unimpeded passage" of aid shipments to Gaza. Hamas has refused to accept 10,000 tonnes of humanitarian aid seized from the flotilla of aid ships attacked last month by the Israeli army.

The Israeli government announced on Sunday that a panel, chaired by former supreme court judge Yaakov Turkel, would investigate the flotilla attack.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

ejazr

Ambassador
Joined
Oct 8, 2009
Messages
4,523
Likes
1,388
The core problem today with Israel is unfortunately the government is the most right-wing and religious fanatic coalition to ever rule Israel. Gone are the days of visionary leadership under David BEn Gurion or even the (relatively) moderates under Shimon Peres. Israel's best hope for peace the native born Jewish PM Yitzhak Rabin was assasinated by a right wing Jewish fanatic. This current Israeli govt. has done more harm than good for its people and alienated once strong allies like Turkey, Australia, Greece and caused problems with countries like Poland and Germany as well. A critical view of this was this editorial in Haaretz.

U.S. era of Jewish and Evangelist pressure is over


Netanyahu's belief that messianism would serve Israel better than rational pragmatism is worrying.

A little more than a year ago, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu formed the largest, most wasteful and extreme coalition in Israeli history. Tzipi Livni and Kadima may have won the most votes, but Netanyahu chose to bond with the wackiest, most extreme elements in Israeli society - to ensure Israel's continued hold on the territories and keep a two-state solution at bay.

Netanyahu's belief that occupation and messianism would serve Israel better than rational pragmatism is worrying, but not surprising.

Netanyahu's ideological preferences are known. It is still surprising, however, that once again he has emerged as a failing schlemiel of a politician. He cannot read the new global map and is incapable of evaluating his real chances of surviving as prime minister of a radical right-wing cabinet opposite the new administration in Washington.

In opting against a centrist-pragmatist coalition with Livni, Netanyahu kept moderate people out of his government who could speak in a language acceptable to Barack Obama. This would have saved Netanyahu's cabinet from moments of tension and disagreement with the Americans.

It is clear that to do so he would have had to agree to Livni's demand to reach a final decision regarding the peace process, in order to ensure Israel's legitimate existence as a democratic Jewish state. He would also have had to agree to a rotating premiership with Livni - which would have spared him the shameful surrender to Yisrael Beiteinu and the ultra-Orthodox parties.

But Netanyahu did not accept Livni's terms to join the government and instead got himself into an impossible situation.Now he has thrown Israel into a dangerous, insufferable collision course with the United States and will apparently have to pay for it with his post.

Netanyahu could have been expected to understand the meaning of Obama's election as U.S. president and to prepare accordingly. Obama was elected without really needing the Jewish vote. He came to power on the back of a clear, enthusiastic agenda to make a fundamental break with all the previous administration's principles.

The era of Jewish and evangelist pressure in America is over, and a renowned Americanologist like Netanyahu should have seen that his lunatic politics would raise strong objections in the United States and endanger Israel and its future.

The writing was on the wall. Livni, who represents the Israeli center, could have conducted a friendly, more moderate dialogue with the Americans, thanks to her credibility and clear support for the two-state principle, unlike Netanyahu's lack of credibility in this arena.

Had Netanyahu really been an adroit statesman, he would have understood immediately that Livni was actually offering him the only way of running Israel in a new world. But Netanyahu did not understand. In his blindness he assumed that in the worst case he could trust the faded magic tricks of Ehud Barak and Shimon Peres. In view of the storm coming from Obama's direction, it is clear that these two cannot divert the lightning.

Washington wants unequivocal progress toward an agreement, and only Livni can do that. Anyone who doesn't see that has failed in a pathetic, worrisome way.

Netanyahu's wretched entanglement with the U.S. administration proves again that his judgment is fundamentally flawed and his political assessments are not merely invalid, but put Israel at risk.

Anyone who can't understand that we will end up bruised in a collision with a tough U.S. administration isn't capable of the simplest reality check and cannot be entrusted with fateful decisions of war. Bibi is dangerous to the Jews.

The writer was a Meretz MK in the 17th Knesset.
 

ejazr

Ambassador
Joined
Oct 8, 2009
Messages
4,523
Likes
1,388
In other news, even Israeli Naval officers have denounced the attack as a failure and clearly state that they believe the final responsibility of the tragic deaths was with the Israeli high command.


Israel Navy reserves officers: Allow external Gaza flotilla probe

Officers denounce operation as 'military and diplomatic failure', slam government for placing blame on the activists.
A group of top Israel Navy reserves officers on Sunday publicly called on Israel to allow an external probe into its commando raid of a Gaza-bound humanitarian aid flotilla last week, which left nine people dead and several more wounded.

In a letter to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Israel Defense Forces Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi, the Navy officers denounced the commando raid as having "ended in tragedy both at the military and diplomatic levels."

"We disagree with the widespread claims that this was the result of an intelligence rift," said the officers. "In addition, we do not accept claims that this was a 'public relations failure' and we think that the plan was doomed to failure from the beginning."

"First and foremost, we protest the fact that responsibility for the tragic results was immediately thrust onto the organizers of the flotilla," wrote the officers. "This demonstrates contempt for the responsibility that belongs principally to the hierarchy of commanders and those who approved the mission. This shows contempt for the values of professionalism, the purity of weapons and for human lives."

The Navy officers' letter came as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was convening his top ministers to deliberate a United Nations proposal to create a joint international committee alongside Turkey and the United States to investigate the circumstances of the deadly raid.

The cabinet was also to discuss the creation of an internal committee to look into the incident. Netanyahu earlier Sunday rejected the idea of an international panel, and reiterated that Israel had the right to conduct its own investigation.

Netanyahu discussed the proposal for a multinational panel with United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki-moon in a telephone call on Saturday but told cabinet ministers fon Sunday that Israel was exploring other options, political sources said.

"I told [Ban] that the investigation of the facts must be carried out responsibly and objectively," Netanyahu told ministers. "We need to consider the issue carefully and level-headedly, while maintaining Israel's national interests as well as those of the Israel Defense Forces."
 

ejazr

Ambassador
Joined
Oct 8, 2009
Messages
4,523
Likes
1,388
An insightful article by son of holocaust survivor and editor of Haaretz

Operation Mini Cast Lead
By Gideon Levy

Like in "Mini-Israel," the park where there is everything, but smaller, Israel embarked yesterday on a mini Operation Cast Lead. Like its larger, losing predecessor, this operation had it all: the usual false claim that is was they who had started it - and not the landing of commandos from helicopters on a ship in open sea, away from Israeli territorial waters. There was the claim that the first act of violence came not from the soldiers, but the rioting activists on Mavi Marmara; that the blockade on Gaza is legal and that the flotilla to its shores is against the law - God knows which law.

Again came the claim of self defense, that "they lynched us" and that all the dead are on their side. Once more the use of violence and excessive and lethal force was in play and once more civilians wound up dead.

This action also featured the pathetic focus on "public relations," as if there is something to explain, and again the sick question was asked: Why didn't the soldiers use more force.

Again Israel will pay a heavy diplomatic price, once which had not been considered ahead of time. Again, the Israeli propaganda machine has managed to convince only brainwashed Israelis, and once more no one asked the question: What was it for? Why were our soldiers thrown into this trap of pipes and ball bearings? What did we get out of it?

If Cast Lead was a turning point in the attitude of the world toward us, this operation is the second horror film of the apparently ongoing series. Israel proved yesterday that it learned nothing from the first movie.

Yesterday's fiasco could and should have been prevented. This flotilla should have been allowed to pass and the blockade should be brought to an end.

This should have happened a long time ago. In four years Hamas has not weakened and Gilad Shalit was not released. There was not even a sign of a gain.

And what have we instead? A country that is quickly becoming completely isolated. This is a place that turns away intellectuals, shoots peace activists, cuts off Gaza and now finds itself in an international blockade. Once more yesterday it seemed, and not for the first time, that Israel is increasingly breaking away from the mother ship, and losing touch with the world - which does not accept its actions and does not understand its motives.

Yesterday there was no one on the planet, not a newsman or analyst, except for its conscripted chorus, who could say a good word about the lethal takeover.

The Israel Defense Forces too came out looking bad again. The magic evaporated long ago, the most moral army in the world, that was once the best army in the world, failed again. More and more there is the impression that nearly everything it touches causes harm to Israel.
 

ajtr

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Oct 2, 2009
Messages
12,038
Likes
723
Egyptian mulls arrest of Netanyahu, Barak


Bethlehem - Ma'an/Agencies - Egypt's prosecutor general has reportedly opened an investigation into complaints filled by activists and MPs, calling for the arrest of Israeli premier Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Ehud Barak upon entering Egypt.

According to Egypt's Daily Star, the complaint, submitted on 3 June, accuses Israeli officials of committing war crimes and crimes against humanity during the Israeli attack on the Freedom Flotilla, which left nine Turkish nationals, including a dual US citizen, dead.

Citing international laws and conventions on the protection of civilians, including the statute of the International Criminal Court, which allows countries to arrest war criminals and subsequent trials in international courts, the complaint was filed by 51 activists and members of parliament.

Petitioners include civil rights activists Ibrahim Yousri, Abdel-Halim Qandil, coordinator of the Kefaya movement for change, Hamdi Qandil, journalist and spokesman for the National Association for Change, and opposition and independent MPs Saad Aboud, Gamal Zahran and Hamdin Sabbahi, will be heard by Prosecutor General Abdel Meguid Mahmoud on Saturday, Qandil said.

Qandil told the Egyptian newspaper that "the decision is a surprise and I don't have any explanation for it," while Yousri, who filed the complaint, said the decision was a "positive step" and told Daily News Egypt "the decision isn't something new for the Prosecutor General."

"He [Prosecutor General] is a man who does his job with integrity and objectivity and implements the law."

An arrest warrant was issued against former Israeli Defense Minister Tzipi Livni in the UK in December 2009, after a British lawyer filed a complaint on behalf of victims of the Gaza war, citing international jurisdiction and allegations of war crimes as the basis.

The move prompted the British government to enforce a veto on all arrest warrants against international leaders accused of war crimes or crimes against humanity.
 

ajtr

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Oct 2, 2009
Messages
12,038
Likes
723
The 'Jewish state.' What is a 'Jewish state?' We call it, the State of Israel'. You can call yourselves whatever you want. You can call yourselves whatever you want. But I will not accept it. And I say this on a live broadcast
It's not my job to define it, to provide a definition for the state and what it contains. You can call yourselves the Zionist Republic, the Hebrew, the National, the Socialist [Republic] call it whatever you like. I don't care."

 
Last edited by a moderator:

SHASH2K2

New Member
Joined
May 10, 2010
Messages
5,711
Likes
730
JERUSALEM: The United Nations will take to Gaza tons of aid supplies languishing in an Israeli port for two weeks since they were seized in a bloody sea confrontation, the Israeli military said on Tuesday.

Robert Serry, the UN special coordinator for the Middle East peace process, told the UN Security Council in New York that Israel agreed to release the cargo "on the understanding that it is for the United Nations to determine its appropriate humanitarian use in Gaza."

The military said the aid, taken from a six-ship Gaza-bound flotilla, would fill 70 trucks.

Up to now, the Hamas rulers of Gaza have refused to accept the aid as a protest against Israel's three-year blockade of the territory. Hamas had no comment on the arrangement, under which the UN would take charge of seeing that the aid would be used in authorized humanitarian projects.

The Israeli military statement noted that Israel offered to let the flotilla land at an Israeli port, and then transfer the aid overland to Gaza after inspection, but flotilla organizers refused.

The May 31 raid on the flotilla, when Israeli commandos clashed with pro-Palestinian activists and killed nine, has focused world attention on the blockade and its dire effects on Gaza's 1.5 million people. Israel has been under intense international pressure to ease or lift the embargo since the clash.

With Egypt's cooperation, Israel has blockaded Gaza by land and sea since Hamas overran Gaza three years ago. The embargo has allowed in little more than food, medicine and basic humanitarian goods, causing Gaza's already depressed economy to grind to a standstill. The embargo was meant to keep out weapons that would be turned on Israel, weaken the Hamas government and pressure militants to release an Israeli soldier who has been held for four years.

It bans building supplies like concrete from entering Gaza, on the ground that Hamas could use such materials to build fortifications.

Israel's top-level Security Cabinet was set to meet Wednesday to discuss easing the blockade, senior officials said. There was no word about whether decisions were expected. One proposal said to be on the table is to scrap Israel's list of permitted items and replace it with a list of goods Israel bans - allowing all other products in.

In a typical week, Israel transfers about 500 truckloads of supplies to Gaza, plus 250,000 gallons of fuel for Gaza's electric power station, according to military figures.

UN spokesman Richard Miron said from Jerusalem that under the agreement, all the cargo from the flotilla would be sent to Gaza. He could not say whether that included items banned by Israel, including cement, but that if such items do make up part of the goods, "the UN will determine how and where it is used."

Neither side said when the supplies would be taken to Gaza. The International Committee of the Red Cross has joined a chorus of demands to lift the blockade, saying Monday that the blockade constitutes "collective punishment" in violation of international law. Although the Red Cross has repeatedly condemned the blockade, it was the first time it has explicitly declared it illegal.

A key Israeli security chief warned Tuesday that lifting Israel's naval blockade would endanger Israel. Shin Bet internal security chief Yuval Diskin told a parliamentary committee that Hamas already has 5,000 rockets, most of them homemade. Others have been smuggled into Gaza and could strike deep inside Israel, he said.

Diskin told the parliamentary committee that Israel's security wouldn't be compromised if it were to let more goods into the territory through Israeli-controlled land crossings, according to a participant, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the meeting was closed.

On Monday, Israel approved an inquiry to look into the legal aspects of the blockade, Israel's actions and the background of the activists on board the flotilla. The appointment received some support from the US and UN, but the Palestinians and Turkey rejected it as inadequate. Amnesty International criticized it as lacking transparency and unlikely to ensure accountability

Israeli critics also complained that the inquiry would not look into the decision-making process that resulted in a deadly raid, seen as a propaganda victory for Hamas. On Tuesday, Israel's state comptroller, a government watchdog, said he would look into that.

The Gaza-bound flotilla - unofficially supported by the Turkish government - has been a boost to Turkey's popularity among Palestinians, according to a poll released Tuesday by the West Bank-based Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research.

Asked which regional country is most supportive of the Palestinians, 43 percent cited Turkey, with Egypt a distant second at 13 percent. Iran got 6 percent, followed by Saudi Arabia and Syria with 5 percent each, according to the poll, which surveyed 1,270 people and quoted an error margin of 3 percentage points.
 

mayfair

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Messages
6,032
Likes
13,109
Posting old pictures of Gaza wont change the fact that the blockade is illegal. Even if granted that weapons should not be allowed to Gaza, what logic states that Coriander and chocolate can be weapons. These items are on the not allowed list. As I have said before even the friends of Israel have taken the Israeli leadership to task for failing to see what their actions have done. Anyone who doesn't see the failure that the Israeli govt. policies resulted in ---even from the Israeli pov, is not helping Israel one bit.
Well EjazR, so are the rockets that rained and do rain on Israeli citizens. There are two sides to the coin. The conflicting sides must climb down from their intransigent positions and move forward amicably. I feel that the international intervention here has largely served to propping up already humongous egos on either side and thus, done more harm than good.
 

ejazr

Ambassador
Joined
Oct 8, 2009
Messages
4,523
Likes
1,388
@mayfair
Ofcourse raining rockets is wrong, but illegal in what context? I was talking in the context of international law. Just like collective punishment is also illegal under internal law and can amount to war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Can you tell me what the climbdown should be on the Palestinian side? What are the "intransigent positions" of the conflicting sides?Did you know that for around six months there was hardly any rocket fire on Israel prior to the Gaza invasion in 2009? The Palestinian even HAMAS have agreed to recognize Israel once they withdraw to their 1967 borders, what else does Israel want? Not only that, all Arab league countries have said that not only will they recognize Israel, but establish trade and diplomatic relations and work towards a new era of co-operation in the ME.

The onus now is on Israel to fully withdraw from West Bank and Gaza as had been agreed in 1992 and various other accords and as stated by the George Bush as well. A two state solution with East Jerusalem as Palestine's capital. We all know the solution, Israel being the more powerful state has to take the first step.
 

gambit

Professional
Joined
Oct 8, 2009
Messages
91
Likes
47
Ofcourse raining rockets is wrong, but illegal in what context?
In that it was against Israeli civilians. Even the Goldstone Report had to note that.

I was talking in the context of international law. Just like collective punishment is also illegal under internal law and can amount to war crimes and crimes against humanity.
And raining inaccurate rockets down on civilians are not war crimes?

Can you tell me what the climbdown should be on the Palestinian side? What are the "intransigent positions" of the conflicting sides?Did you know that for around six months there was hardly any rocket fire on Israel prior to the Gaza invasion in 2009? The Palestinian even HAMAS have agreed to recognize Israel once they withdraw to their 1967 borders, what else does Israel want? Not only that, all Arab league countries have said that not only will they recognize Israel, but establish trade and diplomatic relations and work towards a new era of co-operation in the ME.

The onus now is on Israel to fully withdraw from West Bank and Gaza as had been agreed in 1992 and various other accords and as stated by the George Bush as well. A two state solution with East Jerusalem as Palestine's capital. We all know the solution, Israel being the more powerful state has to take the first step.
Israel withdrew from Gaza back in '05 and no blockade existed. Can you explain the reason for the Hamas rockets?
 

gambit

Professional
Joined
Oct 8, 2009
Messages
91
Likes
47
Let's remove our ideological glasses and deal with facts, not fantasies. Your entire (fallacious) argument is based upon the idea that:

1. Under San Remo, Israel had the right to intercept ships breaking a lawful blockade.
2. The Turkish ships were breaking the blockade.
3. Hence Israel was justified in sending commandoes to land on those ships, and the resistance of the protesters was illegal.

The NY daily mail article is by Alan Dershowitz. Even if you pretend to not know who he is, the fact is, that he is a well known pro-Israeli academic, lobbyist and shill, whose arguments have no merit in my book. People like him are a disgrace to their professions since they let their ideological positions colour their professional judgements thereby losing any chance of convincing laymen that they are putting forth a honest argument.
Dershowitz is a respected jurist whose clinical analysis of legal technicalities often overwhelms his opponents. Please address the contents of Dershowitz's piece instead of his personality.

As to the second article, which uses the San Remo as Israeli defence, two points:

1. First, Israel is not a party to San Remo, hence its provisions don't apply to it.
2. Even if Israel was a party to San Remo, article 103 of the convention states:




In short, Israel had no right to board the ship and force it to an Israeli port instead of Gaza.

Hence,
Nonsense. The boarding of ships in international waters by an authority is nothing new...

http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/crimes-under-flags-convenience
In June, 2002, French commandos boarded the Cambodian-registered freighter Winner in international waters in the Atlantic amid an exchange of gunfire that injured one of the 12 crew members. The troops seized more than one tonne of Colombian cocaine worth well over $100 million in a cargo that was registered as scrap iron destined for Bilbao in Spain. Officials said that the raid was the result of 15-months of surveillance involving U.S., French, Spanish and Greek authorities.
San Remo stated that as long as the cargo is allowed to be searched for contraband, then the blockading authority must allowed the cargo to pass. The inspection process and port of choice can be quibbled over. But that does not negate the fact that based upon precedents, ships in international waters can be boarded, cargo inspected and the boarders have the right to self defense when attacked.
 

ejazr

Ambassador
Joined
Oct 8, 2009
Messages
4,523
Likes
1,388
@gambit

My main purpose was asking mayfair to be on topic basically. The rockets and the blockade are to different things, and both are wrong as well

And yes raining rockets on civilians are just as illegal as killing innocent civilians by tank shells or bulldozing their houses or even when settlers just shoot at Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza for example.
And just like the Israeli army claims to not target civilians so does HAMAS. http://www.haaretz.com/news/hamas-rocket-attacks-not-aimed-at-israeli-women-children-1.243401

And if you know that Israel withdrew from Gaza in '05, you should also know that once a ceasefire was established between HAMAS and Israel, HAMAS tried to maintained it between June and November before Israel launched its operation cast lead. This is accepted by none other than Israeli Intelligence and Terrorism Information Centre. This Israeli institute state that it was not HAMAS but various factions in defiance of HAMAS who had laucnhed a few mortal shells or rockets. Still HAMAS had done according to this centre as well as other arabic language papers considerable job in locking up these extremists groups.

The point I'm making is that pice-meal solutions won't work as there is a huge trust deficit on both sides. There are still settlements being constructed in west bank and east Jerusalem when this was already accepted to be a part of the new Palestinian state. These actions are not helpful. What should be done is to implement the two-state solution as soon as possible and withdraw completely from Gaza, West Bank and East Jerusalem. Israel is more than capable of retaliating if needed if the security situation is still not improved. And lets not forget, it will by then enjoy diplomatic and trade relations with all the Arab countries and the onus will be on the Palestinians to keep their word
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top