A better way to do this is for the government to increase research grants to universities. That way, you get work done by research students for a relatively less cost. Research students are motivated because they are working towards their degrees. This is how it works in the US. Grants are extended based on performance.
Do you know the amount of money US doles out in NSF? It is huge.
Most new research comes out of universities and that is why big cities have big universities. It might not aid military development directly, but if there are trained persons, military hardware companies can hire them.
But universities should be made to compete for this funding. And no where I said, it has to be doled out to public universities. Public + private investment in universities will be a force multiplier for research in India.
Yes, we have gone through this many times, and every time, it is the same rehash of the same vague narrative.
Ok, no issues there.
Whether you care about VW or not is entirely your choice. If you can resist the urge to proffer privatization as the magic solution, then you can afford to not care about VW. Otherwise, VW will come back into the picture. Again, it is your choice.
Some professors in the US too have a relatively easy life. Most of the hard work is done by their students on research grants. They can afford that because they also toiled like slaves under low pay when they were research students. Nothing to see here.
Some professors in the US get paid very well and teach subjects that add no value towards a student's future bread and butter. Again, nothing to see here.
I was not talking about IISc. I was talking about HAL.
Should I take the liberty to replace IISc with HAL and respond or do you want to say something about HAL?
Any assertion that is made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Tell me something about HAL.
Appending the word "Marxist" to every comment will help you earn some brownie points in some circles, but neither will it add any weight to your arguments, nor will it change the fact you switched context from HAL to IISc. Does it boggle your mind that you have provided no explanation as to why you switched to IISc when the question was about HAL? Please re-read what you have quoted and respond to the point.
Let's have a discussion based on facts, not feelz, please.
I know that you are not stupid. You have sufficient logical and analytical skills to analyze issues, understand the argument and respond accordingly. The fact that you are continuing to respond in this inane and brain-dead manner makes it quite certain that you are doing it on purpose.
You were the one who brought in generic "private sector public sector" into the discussion, which immediately leaves the field open for me to discuss I.I.Sc, DRDO, Air India, IR, etc. in addition to HAL. In general, almost all PSUs are plagued by the same issues. Whatever points I make about Air India can be extended to DRDO and HAL, and vice-versa.
Now, the following points are very simple to comprehend. Oh, I know that you do comprehend them well and are just putting on a show here out of obstinacy or God knows what reasons.
1. We need not care if a private company like VW fails. We are not funding those companies. Your earlier point that "consumers do fund private companies" is asinine in the extreme. I have a CHOICE as a consumer whether I want to fund VW or not. I can choose to buy VW stock, buy VW cars. Or I can choose not to. If VW fails someone else will take its place.
2. We do need to be very worried when lakhs of crores of our money is spent in propping up useless entities like Air India. That money could have been used to build more courts and appoint more judges. Build more police stations and buy modern cars for the cops.
3. Competition is essential. Your PSU monolithic monopolies are the worst thing possible in a modern market economy.
4. A government agency can not perform well, by definition. Exceptions may exist, but a couple of exceptions don't change the overall picture. A government employee is secure in the knowledge that his job is a lifetime job, he does not need to worry about performance or targets. And as long as the government (that large, nameless, faceless entity) is pumping money into a firm, employees and managers will sit on their ass without any real need to perform or perish.
5. In a private firm, investors will kick your butt so hard that you'll be out of the premises within days, if you don't perform. Anyone who has experience with entrepreneurship or business development will attest to this. Where is the oversight in government agencies? "Kiske baap ka kya ja raha hai" is the attitude.
6. When the government does pump in money, its never enough to pay salaries comparable to the private sector. And thereby, the cream of the talent goes elsewhere and the government jobs are taken up by a lower rung. Note: I know that exceptions exist, let's not discuss exceptions here.
I think the reason you act so obtuse and stubborn when it comes to this topic is because you feel that your father is being personally attacked. Most of our parents were in the government sector including mine. But the world is different and India is different today. You don't need to take it to heart - be a little sensible.
Indian Railways is probably one of the worst government agencies out there. In 2015, to travel 950 km from Bangalore to Mumbai it takes 24 hours by train. And that's just on paper - it usually ends up taking closer to 25 hours. Not to mention frequent delays etc. Is it too much to expect that I should be able to travel from Bangalore to Mumbai in 10 hours? Or from Bangalore to Delhi in 20 hours? And don't even get me started on the "slow trains".
Privatization of all services is a must, except for inherent state functions. Let government players exist if they have to, but not at a loss. Units which run sustained losses for 5-6 years have to be dissolved.
Do you know the amount of money US doles out in NSF? It is huge.
Most new research comes out of universities and that is why big cities have big universities. It might not aid military development directly, but if there are trained persons, military hardware companies can hire them.
But universities should be made to compete for this funding. And no where I said, it has to be doled out to public universities. Public + private investment in universities will be a force multiplier for research in India.
The research done by students won't be continuous nor will it be anything close to ground breaking. I don't understand how we can fix our military research by throwing money at students for their research. I always thought student research is kind of like a stepping stone for them but never For any serious research
The research done by students won't be continuous nor will it be anything close to ground breaking. I don't understand how we can fix our military research by throwing money at students for their research. I always thought student research is kind of like a stepping stone for them but never For any serious research
Do you know how profs research? They hire poor Research assistants who have no other option but to be slave.
Actually in science, people do PhD then a post doc, then another post doc to finally try and land up with some university as a prof. It means like 10+ years of slavery. Most of them work on pretty advanced stuff in their professor's lab paid by the govt. There is competition between different labs to get money and slaves are in plenty.
Even when these PhDs decide to leave academics after PhD, they get hired by firms working on the frontier. PhD itself means doing something to advance the frontier. Even if not ground breaking every time, their research is at least close to ground breaking. And with experienced professors, these slaves can do pretty good work!!
Do you know how profs research? They hire poor Research assistants who have no other option but to be slave.
Actually in science, people do PhD then a post doc, then another post doc to finally try and land up with some university as a prof. It means like 10+ years of slavery. Most of them work on pretty advanced stuff in their professor's lab paid by the govt. There is competition between different labs to get money and slaves are in plenty.
Even when these PhDs decide to leave academics after PhD, they get hired by firms working on the frontier. PhD itself means doing something to advance the frontier. Even if not ground breaking every time, their research is at least close to ground breaking. And with experienced professors, these slaves can do pretty good work!!
The research done by students won't be continuous nor will it be anything close to ground breaking. I don't understand how we can fix our military research by throwing money at students for their research. I always thought student research is kind of like a stepping stone for them but never For any serious research
A friend of mine is working on laser technology to detect rotten packed food. He needs to develop miniature laser which can detect rotten smell and display the result on the package. And of course it has to be super cheap!
Does that sound like frontier or not? Miniaturizing laser can do many tasks.
I know that you are not stupid. You have sufficient logical and analytical skills to analyze issues, understand the argument and respond accordingly. The fact that you are continuing to respond in this inane and brain-dead manner makes it quite certain that you are doing it on purpose.
You were the one who brought in generic "private sector public sector" into the discussion, which immediately leaves the field open for me to discuss I.I.Sc, DRDO, Air India, IR, etc. in addition to HAL. In general, almost all PSUs are plagued by the same issues. Whatever points I make about Air India can be extended to DRDO and HAL, and vice-versa.
Now, the following points are very simple to comprehend. Oh, I know that you do comprehend them well and are just putting on a show here out of obstinacy or God knows what reasons.
1. We need not care if a private company like VW fails. We are not funding those companies. Your earlier point that "consumers do fund private companies" is asinine in the extreme. I have a CHOICE as a consumer whether I want to fund VW or not. I can choose to buy VW stock, buy VW cars. Or I can choose not to. If VW fails someone else will take its place.
2. We do need to be very worried when lakhs of crores of our money is spent in propping up useless entities like Air India. That money could have been used to build more courts and appoint more judges. Build more police stations and buy modern cars for the cops.
3. Competition is essential. Your PSU monolithic monopolies are the worst thing possible in a modern market economy.
4. A government agency can not perform well, by definition. Exceptions may exist, but a couple of exceptions don't change the overall picture. A government employee is secure in the knowledge that his job is a lifetime job, he does not need to worry about performance or targets. And as long as the government (that large, nameless, faceless entity) is pumping money into a firm, employees and managers will sit on their ass without any real need to perform or perish.
5. In a private firm, investors will kick your butt so hard that you'll be out of the premises within days, if you don't perform. Anyone who has experience with entrepreneurship or business development will attest to this. Where is the oversight in government agencies? "Kiske baap ka kya ja raha hai" is the attitude.
6. When the government does pump in money, its never enough to pay salaries comparable to the private sector. And thereby, the cream of the talent goes elsewhere and the government jobs are taken up by a lower rung. Note: I know that exceptions exist, let's not discuss exceptions here.
I think the reason you act so obtuse and stubborn when it comes to this topic is because you feel that your father is being personally attacked. Most of our parents were in the government sector including mine. But the world is different and India is different today. You don't need to take it to heart - be a little sensible.
Indian Railways is probably one of the worst government agencies out there. In 2015, to travel 950 km from Bangalore to Mumbai it takes 24 hours by train. And that's just on paper - it usually ends up taking closer to 25 hours. Not to mention frequent delays etc. Is it too much to expect that I should be able to travel from Bangalore to Mumbai in 10 hours? Or from Bangalore to Delhi in 20 hours? And don't even get me started on the "slow trains".
Privatization of all services is a must, except for inherent state functions. Let government players exist if they have to, but not at a loss. Units which run sustained losses for 5-6 years have to be dissolved.
We need not care about VW because we have alternatives. For HAL, we have none.
I am not defending Air India. I am against privatization of HAL.
Yes, competition is essential. HAL has no competitor. This is a rehash of point 1 above.
A government agency can, by definition, perform better than a private agency, when it comes to heavy investment in high technology and technology denial fields. Private companies are no match. This is especially true for India. Building a fighter jet is not the same thing as building a VW hatchback.
If HAL is privatized, and if there is no final product in a short time, the investors will shut down the project. Private companies are more interested in quick profits. Building fighter jets takes a long and protracted incubation period.
When private companies or investors pump in money, they do so only for short term profits. Tell me what Indian company will be able to afford the R&D costs for LCA, or lets take something simpler, the LCH?
This has nothing to do with your father or my father working in government jobs. I already asked, how long will it take for TATA or Mahindra to build a rival to LCA? I am neither being obtuse nor stubborn. I just don't share your irrational hate for public sector.
If the LCA project were given to TATA or Mahindra several decades back, today we would have nothing to show for it, and the project would have been shelved long ago. That we have an LCA is only because it is a product of a government agency. Just keep in mind, even after decades of truck building. TATA still needs to collaborate with foreign companies for its engines.
I am not against private companies competing with public sector companies. As a matter of fact, I welcome it, just like I welcomed L&T's new artillery order. I just do not support privatization of HAL, because I have not seen one private entity capable of doing what HAL does.
We need not care about VW because we have alternatives. For HAL, we have none.
I am not defending Air India. I am against privatization of HAL.
Yes, competition is essential. HAL has no competitor. This is a rehash of point 1 above.
A government agency can, by definition, perform better than a private agency, when it comes to heavy investment in high technology and technology denial fields. Private companies are no match. This is especially true for India. Building a fighter jet is not the same thing as building a VW hatchback.
If HAL is privatized, and if there is no final product in a short time, the investors will shut down the project. Private companies are more interested in quick profits. Building fighter jets takes a long and protracted incubation period.
When private companies or investors pump in money, they do so only for short term profits. Tell me what Indian company will be able to afford the R&D costs for LCA, or lets take something simpler, the LCH?
This has nothing to do with your father or my father working in government jobs. I already asked, how long will it take for TATA or Mahindra to build a rival to LCA? I am neither being obtuse nor stubborn. I just don't share your irrational hate for public sector.
If the LCA project were given to TATA or Mahindra several decades back, today we would have nothing to show for it, and the project would have been shelved long ago. That we have an LCA is only because it is a product of a government agency. Just keep in mind, even after decades of truck building. TATA still needs to collaborate with foreign companies for its engines.
I am not against private companies competing with public sector companies. As a matter of fact, I welcome it, just like I welcomed L&T's new artillery order. I just do not support privatization of HAL, because I have not seen one private entity capable of doing what HAL does.
You cannot guess what would have happened if govt. had not wasted money on HAL but instead prodded TATA.
Defence is a different sector and needs both seed capital by the govt. as well as initial support even in case of private company. What TATA could have brought to the table are project management skills and coordination. And govt. could have dangled the carrot in front of them and their competitors for future payments, which could have been tied to their performance. The amount of money dumped on HAL, would have definitely produced better results. May be India could have developed two rival aerospace firms by now.
You cannot guess what would have happened if govt. had not wasted money on HAL but instead prodded TATA.
Defence is a different sector and needs both seed capital by the govt. as well as initial support even in case of private company. What TATA could have brought to the table are project management skills and coordination. And govt. could have dangled the carrot in front of them and their competitors for future payments, which could have been tied to their performance. The amount of money dumped on HAL, would have definitely produced better results. May be India could have developed two rival aerospace firms by now.
Yes, my comment is a woulda-coulda comment. Hypothetical.
We can make a fresh start at this point. Like you suggested, I am all for the government funding private companies with seed capital. We have a lot of areas where this could be done. One area is a jet turbine. Let there be a private firm competing with GTRE. In the past, perhaps India was not in a position to nurture and finance an alternative to HAL, but now they can.
I am also in favour of at least two competing aerospace agencies.
I am not against private companies competing with public sector companies. As a matter of fact, I welcome it, just like I welcomed L&T's new artillery order. I just do not support privatization of HAL, because I have not seen one private entity capable of doing what HAL does.
That's because they have been restricted from the sector for all these years. All of these guys have only upped their presence since really around 07-09. What they have done since then is fantastic, especially TASL. While, HAL got government funding, constant orders from the get-go, obviously being the only gov aerospace assembly agency.
ADA is serious about the private sector involvement in their projects, btw.
All of the module fabrication will now be done outside of HAL.
And if HAL royally screws up LCA Mark 2, 1A production, ADA might well prop someone else for lead integration work as well.
Btw, where is SP2 by HAL? It's November, and HAL had delivered a fantastic number of 1 pre FOC LCA so far.
@Shaitan, private companies were restricted by the License Raj. However, if the government wanted a private company to build something, they would have cleared the road for them. The truth is that we just did not have any private company to do what HAL is supposed to do. If the government wanted a private company to develop something, they would have cleared all the obstacles. Tell me, what private company had the capability to take up the Marut project? None.
HAL is already working with private suppliers. Coming to the proposed supply chain, if it gets production running and gets it running faster, we should go for it.
There is no LCA Mark 2. What about LCA Mark 1A production?
I don't know where SP-2 is. You might want to ask the IAF. As per this report, it was already handed over to IAF by HAL, at least prior to February, 2015.
@Shaitan, private companies were restricted by the License Raj. However, if the government wanted a private company to build something, they would have cleared the road for them. The truth is that we just did not have any private company to do what HAL is supposed to do. If the government wanted a private company to develop something, they would have cleared all the obstacles. Tell me, what private company had the capability to take up the Marut project? None.
HAL is already working with private suppliers. Coming to the proposed supply chain, if it gets production running and gets it running faster, we should go for it.
There is no LCA Mark 2. What about LCA Mark 1A production?
I don't know where SP-2 is. You might want to ask the IAF. As per this report, it was already handed over to IAF by HAL, at least prior to February, 2015.
IF the government wanted, but they would never have back then. They restricted the private sector in every other sector, let alone defence and aerospace, why would they even enter such restricted sector in a big way? The gov wanted to depend on their own companies to pull the weight on everything. That was their stupid doctrine.
Do you think it's a coincidence all of a sudden all these private firms are entering aero & defence at once? What did TATA or any other know about the aerospace and front line defence industry prior to 09?
In a matter of 6 years they came from aerospace module making to getting contracts to assemble and test whole transport planes with airbus.
Even showed a working prototype of wheel amphibious platform and light armoured vehicle AHEAD of schedule.
They even entered a concept for the FRCV future tank platform.
All of this should have happened 20 some years ago.
And that report is wrong, they handed over SP1 prior to Feb. SP2 was supposed to be handed over in March, now we're in November end of 2015. HAL is the one that needs to answer the most - they are the assembler.
IF the government wanted, but they would never have back then. They restricted the private sector in every other sector, let alone defence and aerospace, why would they even enter such restricted sector in a big way? The gov wanted to depend on their own companies to pull the weight on everything. That was their stupid doctrine.
Tata was making locomotives. They simply could not compete with British made locomotives, and Indian Railways continued to purchase from the British and eventually CLW and DLW were set up. Tata moved over to trucks. Nobody stopped them from producing locomotives. They just were not up to the mark.
Do you think it's a coincidence all of a sudden all these private firms are entering these sector at once? What did TATA know about the aerospace and front line defence industry prior to 09?
Are you talking about Airbus C295? What is the status on this project? In any event, if they have the capability, they should get to produce LCA. That way we can have 16 per year instead of 8 per year.
And that report is wrong, they handed over SP1 prior to Feb. SP2 was supposed to be handed over in March, now we're in November end of 2015. HAL is the one that needs to answer the most - they are the assembler.
Are you talking about Airbus C295? What is the status on this project? In any event, if they have the capability, they should get to produce LCA. That way we can have 16 per year instead of 8 per year.
HAL has no rival, the Indian government knows this and is actively trying to create a HAL rival. By opening the sector up.
TATAs are building capabilities right now. Please take in mind, they have been doing this since 07-09.
Airbus choose to partner with TATA to assemble C295s for the Indian military. - They were cleared, India will now have another line that can support medium transports planes, maybe eventually other projects, after the order is finished.
They have the capability to produce small planes like Pilatus PC-12 and Dorniers, both partnerships made with Pilatus and RUAG.
And are in a partnership with a European firm to produce a big helicopter assembly line as well. That will supply Indian military and civilian needs.
If that report is wrong, then you don't you share the correct report? Do you have a link?
"Out of the 338 LRUs, more than 200 have been produced in India. We will deliver SP2 in March and another six during the next financial year (2015-16). Subsequently we are capable of scaling up the numbers to eight and more," Dr Tyagi said.
TATA won, and they will be building a massive production line for it, they will produce 40 C295.
And about LCA, ADA is giving the task of making it's different modules. They are in advanced talks with someone of it's fuselage.
HAL has no rival, the Indian government knows this and is actively trying to create a HAL rival. By opening the sector up.
TATAs are building capabilities right now. Please take in mind, they have been doing this since 07-09.
Airbus choose to partner with TATA to assemble C295s for the Indian military. - They were cleared, India will now have another line that can support medium transports planes, maybe eventually other projects, after the order is finished.
They have the capability to produce small planes like Pilatus PC-12 and Dorniers, both partnerships made with Pilatus and RUAG.
And are in a partnership with a European firm to produce a big helicopter assembly line as well. That will supply Indian military and civilian needs.
In that case, TATA should get to produce 8 LCA in parallel with HAL producing 8 LCA.
That will make both compete with each other, and hopefully, will improve quality and punctuality.
So that there is economic viability, I would hope more LCA orders to follow. As discussed earlier, GoI should encourage private companies with seed capital. A little bit of handholding might yield dividends.
"Out of the 338 LRUs, more than 200 have been produced in India. We will deliver SP2 in March and another six during the next financial year (2015-16). Subsequently we are capable of scaling up the numbers to eight and more," Dr Tyagi said.
I know of the date difference, I think it's a mistake on their part, because we have absolutely no information on SP2, 3, 4, 5 at all. HAL, IAF, and ADA, has said nothing about all this. What they were mentioning is most probably the SP1 that was just handed over to IAF at that time.
As for LCA production, you will see modules most definitely being made outside HAL. We dont know who is going to make it, yet. But TATA, Mahindra, Dynamatic Technologies, among others are up to the task at making LCA modules.
Let's hope for good cooperations between these different players.