Is HAL inefficient? Should Govt. split it?

Do you think HAL is efficient? If yes, what should be done?


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Bangalorean

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I would like to correct you on IISc.- what you said is true but only partially. GoI does not infuse the kind of money into research as foreign countries. But why are the profs. there still teaching?

Pros-
- Low work pressure
- Almost no answerability

Cons-
- low income (these guys could have worked abroad or in private sector)
- small research grants

So, the guys here have made a tradeoff- high income and too much work vs low income and no work.

And I think small research grants is a big culprit. Private sector does not pour in so much in India as it does in US. Also, the administration in most universities is hostile to such investment except a few big schools like IIMs. This leave very little incentive for Profs to work on anything other than local politics. This is from an insider- we have taken social equality(inclusive growth) too much seriously that we split the small research pie between too many different projects. So instead of giving 10 lakh to one project, usually they pay 2 lakhs to 5 different projects. In the end, none of the projects get any desired output. For eg.- A guy wanted to do some research on comparing PPP vs private road projects and he wanted to measure smoothness of roads. The way you do it is run a car for several hundred of kms with an measurement instrument mounted on it. The grants authority did not reject his project, because he is well known, but gave him 2 lakhs while he asked for something like 20 lakhs. Apparently the instrument mounted on the car itself costs more than the money granted!!!
Yes, this definitely makes sense. I have seen the ridiculous state of private research in India. A friend of mine is a PhD in genetics, but is not able to get any good job in India. The only options he has are in the government sector. He applied for a research job (low-paying of course). Being a Bangalorean, he was assigned a job in some remote backwater in WB, whereas other "better connected" candidates managed to land themselves plum postings in Mumbai/Bangalore/Delhi/etc. You just can't survive if you don't game the system, things are that pathetic.

So, there is no private research and govt. research is underfunded and poorly paid. It is definitely a vicious cycle which can only be broken with increased economic growth and prosperity.
 

pmaitra

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Ok, we've gone through this before. Let me start again.
Yes, we have gone through this many times, and every time, it is the same rehash of the same vague narrative.
HAL, NAL, DRDO, I.I.Sc. etc. are agencies/institutions on whom the government spends huge amounts of money. These behemoths provide guaranteed lifelong direct/indirect employment to millions of people. The money that is pumped into these institutions is taxpayer money. The output that comes out of these institutions/companies should justify the expenditure that we incur.
Ok, no issues there.

The point that Marxist admirers fail to understand is this: I don't care and don't need to care if VW doesn't perform well. VW can go to hell for all I care, VW's place will be taken by someone else sooner or later. However, it is a serious problem for me if HAL doesn't perform well.

I have a choice whether I want a stake in VW's success or not. In the case of HAL, I.I.Sc. etc. I have no choice. Money is constantly poured into these companies - my money. The output is dismal. And there is nothing I can do about it.
Whether you care about VW or not is entirely your choice. If you can resist the urge to proffer privatization as the magic solution, then you can afford to not care about VW. Otherwise, VW will come back into the picture. Again, it is your choice.

I.I.Sc. is supposed to be a renowned research institute, the best we have in India. Life in I.I.Sc. is so comfortable and cushy, you will go green with envy. There is very little work, extremely relaxed life. You leave for office at 9:30 and you're back by 5:00 PM or even 4:00 PM many times. You often can come home for lunch and don't need to go back to office. Absolutely no question of working on holidays or weekends.

These guys who work/study in I.I.Sc. are brilliant people - the cream of India. If I.I.Sc. had a different management and work culture, we would have seen tremendous innovation, year after year. I would like to ask, what output are we getting? Does it justify the amount of capital we infuse?
Some professors in the US too have a relatively easy life. Most of the hard work is done by their students on research grants. They can afford that because they also toiled like slaves under low pay when they were research students. Nothing to see here.

Some professors in the US get paid very well and teach subjects that add no value towards a student's future bread and butter. Again, nothing to see here.

I was not talking about IISc. I was talking about HAL.

Should I take the liberty to replace IISc with HAL and respond or do you want to say something about HAL?

I don't care if Indigo airlines goes under. But I do care that Air India is being infused with money and propped up like a terminally ill patient being forced to stay alive. The sad thing is, many of these inefficient behemoths are alive only because the netas and babus want it to live, for their own benefit.
Any assertion that is made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Tell me something about HAL.

Marxists keep their eyes shut even when the logic is really clear. The amount of lost opportunity in India over the years due to Marxists, is mind-boggling.
Appending the word "Marxist" to every comment will help you earn some brownie points in some circles, but neither will it add any weight to your arguments, nor will it change the fact you switched context from HAL to IISc. Does it boggle your mind that you have provided no explanation as to why you switched to IISc when the question was about HAL? Please re-read what you have quoted and respond to the point.

Let's have a discussion based on facts, not feelz, please.
 
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Mad Indian

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:pound: what a typical marxist (stupid) reply . of course if VW goes bankrupt of fails to deliver, there won't be any car companies which can be expected to deliver now is it? Is it? Is it? But HAL's failure to deliver will of course be met by other companies too , which of course were not allowed in India to be part of defence establishment thanks to license raj. And of course, we should also forget the tiny important bit about HAL being funded by our money while private companies are not funded by us and so we have no reason to care about their performance.

This is why it is usually a futile exercise to debate the leftist scum- they always will be providing at false equivalences(like VW in this case) to peddle their bull shit.

And of course, the leftist Marxists who are defending the inefficiency of HAL, (which has been backed by op article and CAG report) with their made up bullshit , lack of logic, facts or evidence and only on feelz about taxes and shit(which can basically be summed up as - "they dont believe hal can be that inefficient and so the facts in the CAG report, and the OP article can't be true") are now whining about why someone should not argue on feelz. Irony died a million deaths:lol:
 

pmaitra

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And of course, we should also forget the tiny important bit about HAL being funded by our money while private companies are not funded by us and so we have no reason to care about their performance.
Of course private companies are funded by us. If we don't buy their products, they go bust. Whatever happened to Standard 2000 and Hindustan Motors? Go take some lessons on capitalism.

As I said, argue based on facts, not feelz.
 

Shaitan

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Of course private companies are funded by us. If we don't buy their products, they go bust. Whatever happened to Standard 2000 and Hindustan Motors? Go take some lessons on capitalism.

As I said, argue based on facts, not feelz.

They finally had a fire under their ass after India opened up the automotive sector, they couldn't keep up with their competitors and went the way of any inefficient creature in their environment - extinct.

@Mad Indian

Indicus-Tamiliconus, you will like this recent article of HAL.

http://www.financialexpress.com/article/economy/boeing-ends-contract-with-hal/110345/

Boeing’s decision came after repeated reminders to HAL about its “poor quality” of production, sources said, adding that the US company’s move underlined the need for better strategies by India’s policymakers in order to bolster the order books of defence PSUs.


:rotfl:

HAL needs competitors, and the gov knows it, as they are currently slowly opening the defence and aerospace sector. If HAL keeps up the late deliveries, crap production, against their future competitors - they also can go the way of Standard and HM.

BTW, It's the beginning of November, where is SP2? These guys are a joke.
 

pmaitra

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They finally had a fire under their ass after India opened up the automotive sector, they couldn't keep up with their competitors and went the way of any inefficient creature in their environment - extinct.

@Mad Indian

Indicus-Tamiliconus, you will like this recent article of HAL.

http://www.financialexpress.com/article/economy/boeing-ends-contract-with-hal/110345/

Boeing’s decision came after repeated reminders to HAL about its “poor quality” of production, sources said, adding that the US company’s move underlined the need for better strategies by India’s policymakers in order to bolster the order books of defence PSUs.


:rotfl:

HAL needs competitors, and the gov knows it, as they are currently slowly opening the defence and aerospace sector. If HAL keeps up the late deliveries, crap production, against their future competitors - they also can go the way of Standard and HM.

BTW, It's the beginning of November, where is SP2? These guys are a joke.
That is why I had said earlier, let private companies compete with HAL. I am for competitors. I am against privatization of HAL as many suggest. Privatization won't change anything. Without competitors, HAL will be a monopoly.

No news about Mahindra Aerospace. Not holding my breath. I do not foresee any serious competitor to HAL in the next two decades.

HAL might be a joke, but the idea that privatization is the magic pill, is a bigger joke.
 
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Shaitan

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Mean while the over bloated HAL gets it's contract shut by Boeing because of it's shit production, they're expanding with companies like TATA, Dynamatic technologies, Mahindra, etc, etc.



dynamatic technologies producing Chinook modules.
 

pmaitra

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Mean while the over bloated HAL gets it's contract shut by Boeing because of it's shit production, they're expanding with companies like TATA, Dynamatic technologies, Mahindra, etc, etc.



dynamatic technologies producing Chinook modules.
Good. How soon will Tata, Mahindra, etc., be able to produce a rival to the LCA?
 

Shaitan

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No news about Mahindra Aerospace. Not holding my breath. I do not foresee any serious competitor to HAL in the next two decades.
Two decades? Have you seen what TATA has done since 09? What they have bagged from leading aerospace companies?





Sikorsky Cabins






Tata Lockheed Martin Modules




TATA Aerospace RUAG Dornier Assembly

Bagged assembly of Cobham air to air probe

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities...refuelling-parts-to-cobham/article7737392.ece

Bagged assembly of Pilatus PC-12

http://articles.economictimes.india...anced-systems-pilatus-aircraft-aerostructures

Bagged assembly of Airbus C-295 transports

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...t-helicopter-tata-airbus-putin-modi/27359629/

They have come from making parts, to winning contracts to assemble and test whole transport planes like the C-295 in a matter of 6 years, forget 2 decades.

With the aerospace plant being developed for C 295, you have a serious aerospace assembly line that can support other projects, including indigenous programs from ADA, etc. or within the company itself.
 

pmaitra

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Two decades? Have you seen what TATA has done since 09? What they have bagged from leading aerospace companies?





Sikorsky Cabins






Tata Lockheed Martin Modules




TATA Aerospace RUAG Dornier Assembly

Bagged assembly of Cobham air to air probe

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities...refuelling-parts-to-cobham/article7737392.ece

Bagged assembly of Pilatus PC-12

http://articles.economictimes.india...anced-systems-pilatus-aircraft-aerostructures

Bagged assembly of Airbus C-295 transports

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...t-helicopter-tata-airbus-putin-modi/27359629/

They have come from making parts, to assembling whole transport planes like the EADS CASA C-295 in a matter of years. This is in a matter of 6 years, forget 2 decades.

With the now aerospace plant of being developed for C 295, you have a serious aerospace assembly line that can suppose other projects.
I would expect a quicker turnaround.

Let ADA design and hand over the design to HAL, Tata, Mahindra.

After the first batch is delivered, the one that does the best job should get the following contracts.

We need to have competing assembly lines.

R&D will have to be in the Public Sector. No Indian private company can afford an R&D budget.
 

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

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I would expect a quicker turnaround.

Let ADA design and hand over the design to HAL, Tata, Mahindra.

After the first batch is delivered, the one that does the best job should get the following contracts.

We need to have competing assembly lines.

R&D will have to be in the Public Sector. No Indian private company can afford an R&D budget.
India is a big country and can afford two competitors like Lockheed and Boeing in the US. There can be diversity in what they produce but they should get enough opportunities and incentives to compete.
 

pmaitra

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India is a big country and can afford two competitors like Lockheed and Boeing in the US. There can be diversity in what they produce but they should get enough opportunities and incentives to compete.
That is true. There has to be a large volume.

I don't know whether HAL has a performance based compensation. OFB has a performance based compensation. That is one way to motivate people to meet qualitative standards.
 

Shaitan

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R&D will have to be in the Public Sector. No Indian private company can afford an R&D budget.

Or the public sector funds private sector programs. Or the government partially funds the private program.

Both of this is happening.

TATA Kestral, being developed by TATA is being funded by DRDO.

FICV program, the gov funds 80% of the program.



 

pmaitra

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Or the public sector funds private sector programs. Or the government partially funds the private program.

Both of this is happening.

TATA Kestral, being developed by TATA is being funded by DRDO.

FICV program, the gov funds 80% of the program.



A better way to do this is for the government to increase research grants to universities. That way, you get work done by research students for a relatively less cost. Research students are motivated because they are working towards their degrees. This is how it works in the US. Grants are extended based on performance.

Paying students is cheaper than paying employees.
 

Shaitan

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A better way to do this is for the government to increase research grants to universities. That way, you get work done by research students for a relatively less cost. Research students are motivated because they are working towards their degrees. This is how it works in the US. Grants are extended based on performance.

Paying students is cheaper than paying employees.

Yes, and I am of the opinion that there's no shortage of talent within India itself.
 

pmaitra

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Yes, and I am of the opinion that there's no shortage of talent within India itself.
Like how several universities and institutions collaborated for the ISRO MOM project.
 

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

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A better way to do this is for the government to increase research grants to universities. That way, you get work done by research students for a relatively less cost. Research students are motivated because they are working towards their degrees. This is how it works in the US. Grants are extended based on performance.

Paying students is cheaper than paying employees.
Students the eternal slaves

Sent from my MI 3W using Tapatalk
 

Mad Indian

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Of course private companies are funded by us. If we don't buy their products, they go bust. Whatever happened to Standard 2000 and Hindustan Motors? Go take some lessons on capitalism.

As I said, argue based on facts, not feelz.
Irony died a million deaths again.Rip irony, you will not be missed as you will be killed again soon :tsk:
 

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