Is China protecting Kashmiri terrorists?

[Ray]

This is all a coincidence that China supports Rogue regimes, insurgents and nuclear proliferation thruout the world, their sweatshops and economy should have the world overlook these things?
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Rogue state?

come on, get updated! Pakistan has been certified by Uncle Sam as an anti-terrorism ally and billions and billions of aid is going Pakistan way from Uncle.

we shall always stand with Uncle Sam in the just cause!

ah ha? timid Indians don't have the guts to give a damn to Uncle?? that's fine, your call. but what does China sweatshop bother u? at least we earn our own bread. at least we don't have starving people like in India.

the world is overlooking what?? Indian's brutality in Kashmir. why not give Kashmiri self determination? why not let them decide which way they go?

and in Assam u oppress outrageous freedom fighters such as ULFA (moreover, Nagaland, Bodoland... my God, how many people are there yearning for emancipation?)

and there's no human rights for tribal people, who took side with Naxalite for their dignity. and so many desperate landless peasants take up arms.

and clashes between religions....


again, typical Indian hypocrisy!

Tongzhi,

I am constrained to correct some issues, the fact of which it appears you are not aware of and hence your comments.

It would hold you in good stead when commenting about Pakistan's status as a failed State to read what the Foreign Policy magazine has to state:

The 2009 Failed States Index | Foreign Policy

The Economic crisis of 2008 led Pakistan to seek more than $100 billion in aid in order to avoid possible bankruptcy.

In so far as Pakistan being a rogue state, you may do well to read the RAND commentary 'Counter Insurgency in Pakistan'. It will indicate that the ISI is in cahoots with the Taliban on the one hand, while the Pakistan government is claiming to be fighting the Talban! That eminently qualifies it as a Rogue State!! Total Blackguard behavioural state, if you will.

As far as the US certifying Pakistan for 'anti terrorism', you may do well to understand how geopolitics and geostrategy shape foreign policy. It is in the US' interest to keep Pakistan jolly in this delusion. As the American saying goes – there is no free lunch. Hence, the US military and financial aid. One would recall that Saddam was propped up by the US against Iran and yet, when the time came, they toppled the man! Hypocrisy is what you may call, while others in the know will call it smart move.

I am not aware of which country you belong to. Hence I cannot comment on your 'at least we earn our own bread. at least we don't have starving people like in India'. If you are from China, the closest guess I can fathom given your bile and the fact that you have used the favourite of the Chinese posters – India starves - one hardly knows what is going on there and what is more you are secretive about everything. Remember, how the Chinese govt went out of its way to keep the SARS epidemic under the wraps till the renowned surgeon Jiang Yanyong blew the lid. There are many more instances that one can recount, but then let it pass. Let us for debate's sake agree that India starves. However, it is better to starve than have a kangaroo court system where you are shot at dawn just because you don't agree with the CCP. Also, we can say what we want and see what we want to see. You can't. Google is banned! I would like to believe that it is worth our while to follow the line of Patrick Henry - Give me Liberty or give me Death – than being a stooge and a living dead (remember Tiananmen Square and the Cultural Revolution?) that some people feel is happiness, just because food doles are dished out. In China the total control of the population is done by the danwei system (provides all housing, schooling etc to workers who are there for life) and hukou system (sort of internal passport to move within China).

Indian brutality in Kashmir? It is only today, transcripts were over the news channel where the separatist planned to provoke the Indian Security Forces so that the separatist could claim some 'martyrs'!! In other words, the separatists were planning to get their own people murdered!

India does not suppress anyone, unlike China. That is why any group can air their grievances in any form. China and Pakistan's assistance and aid to these groups are well known. They are not indigenous dissatisfaction alone. They are fomented and kept alive by China and Pakistan. In comparison, the Taliban in Pakistan is their own creation and the Tibetan and the Uighur uprising were against the imperialism being practised by China wherein they want to change the demography and wiping out the indigenous identity, language, culture, religion and instead stuff them by force the Han Godless form. In Kashmir and some other states, the hinterland Indians cannot buy property or settle down or have businesses!! Got the difference? We believe in freedom and not suppression as is being practiced in China and Pakistan!

Yes, there is clash between religions. But that is natural in a multireligious, multiethnic, multicultural nation. Why in Pakistan where there is ONE religion, they kill those who do not follow their interpretation of the Quaran, even though they all follow one religion – Islam! In China, you do not allow religion. You suppress religion. Check Tibet and East Turkmenistan (Xinjiang) where Muslims are not allowed to go to the Mosque before 18 and where they are not allowed to have any religious teaching! The token Churches and Mosques are totally state controlled. The priests are selected by the CCP and their sermons cleared by the party head honcho.

So, spare us the pious platitudes and homilies.

Imagine a country claiming to be a Communist country, practising blatant capitalism! And statements like, it does not matter what is the colour of the cow, so long as it gives milk. Such lack of morality and honesty of policy!

Wonder where the hypocrisy really lies!!

May I request that you expose yourself to the world and what is happening (I agree that might land you for reformation with the Chinese authorities or in other plain words - jail). Please remember in China you are aware of only what your Govt allows you to know!

 

[Ray]

Tongzhi

Why was Falun Gong banned and they arrested and jailed, which your Thought Police call 'reformation'?

They were a peaceful people!

 

[amoy]

u call me Tongzhi that's sweet. Tong=same, Zhi=ideal or wish or ambition
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your poster is helpful though it contains lots of 'grey areas' in my opinion that may result from incomplete or wrong source of info.

your comments on geopolitics and geostrategy btwn US and PAK, and PAK itself - partly agree

your comments on Indian political 'transparency' (democracy) and 'no brutality' and 'no suppression' - agree to a certain extent with great reservations.

your comments on China's politics, liberty, transparency, CCP and suppression - partly disagree. for example of Danwei, and Hukou - u must get updated or the absurd observation continues if u rely on obsolete info. and Tibet and Uigur and ethnic/cultural oppression -- totally disagree (seeing is believing. u won't be convinced unless u come see for yourself. obviously u have inconsistent criteria in observing ethnic/regional unrests in China and India )

your comment on Falun Gong - my friend, to avoid another undesired debate I say I respect your opinion about it

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When u say Chinese only know what the gov allows to know, my answer: sir, u really need to get updated about China and Chinese life! (not as static as u imagine back 10-20 years ago)

I understand the sentiments in talking abt one's own country rather than the other's.

Let's agree to differ.

 

[Known_Unknown]

I have never heard IB & R&AW being implicated internationally, unlike ISI. That means R&AW & IB are doing a commendable job, if they are doing it.

...."if they are doing it"...Hahahahaha.....:happy_2:

 

[Ray]

Tongzhi,

Thanks for the reply.

Your earlier post, to which I responded, did raise some rather interesting views. I thought it would be worth the while to clarify the issues. We are here, after all, to learn with interaction. It is also a truism that some, in moments when their guard is down, do express views that are either not wholesome or are warped by inadequate information or influenced by their national biases and prejudices, more so in Nations where the openness to information is a trifle stifled. It is more of a fallout of the Chinese mindset that is a follow up of the Chinese concept of Legalism. Understandable.

Tongzhi, as I understand, means comrade, like Tongzhi Mao. Indeed, though in practice was not so, yet Mao, for public consumption, was the same as any other common Chinese, even if not true in practice. Does it have a different meaning?

China has a very rich and interesting history including a fascinatingly interest history. I am fascinated by the manner in which the Hans (nei ren or 'inner people') expanded their territory which was confined to the North of the Yellow River, to the South and East, conquered and Hanised the wai ren or 'barbarians'. The concept of 'cooked' barbarians (shufan) and 'raw' barbarians ( shengfan) is exciting, even if a trifle racist.
Watch the map and the changing territorial expansion

It is ever interesting to study the Chinese mode of yongxiabianyi or the Chinese way to transform the barbarians.

I do not want to go into the details of the Cultural Revolution, Tienanmen Square massacre, Falun Gong, Uighur uprising and religious suppression, Tibetan recent uprising and the harsh manner it was put down, the rather subterfuge towards Hanisation wherein only those who learn Mandarin can get proper jobs, the Three Years of Natural Disasters (where most Chinese starved to death), the mining disasters where labour is taken as expendable and well, oh so many other issues. These are well documented by neutral sources for recall.



On starvation, I am sure you are aware of what Yang Jisheng, Chinese journalist and author of Tombstone (Mùbēi), a comprehensive account of the Great Chinese Famine during the Great Leap Forward said when he summarized the effect of the focus on production targets in 2008:

In Xinyang, people starved at the doors of the grain warehouses. As they died, they shouted, "Communist Party, Chairman Mao, save us". If the granaries of Henan and Hebei had been opened, no one need have died. As people were dying in large numbers around them, officials did not think to save them. Their only concern was how to fulfill the delivery of grain". Total callousness starving their own people!!

So starvation is nothing new to the Chinese. Not only caused by famine but also caused willy nilly by the authorities in a diabolical plot! I do appreciate that intense emotion that this sceptre arouses in the Chinese where they remember their sorrow wherever there is starvation around the world!

Danwei and Hukou is still prevalent, even though reforms are underway.

It is true that China is not in such an iron grip in information as it was a few years back. The US pressure on human rights is having its effect, wherein many dissidents who were arrested and given long jail terms have been released and some having immigrated to the US.

I do appreciate your loyalty to your nation. I don't think anyone should hold that against you.

It was an interesting interlude. Thank you.


No hard feelings from my side.

 

[nimo_cn]

ohimalayer,

Remind me how many tens of millions did Mao kill? Oh dog penis & cockroaches is in abundance in China, good for you & your people.

Erm, who do u think u r telling who I can & can't call a terrorist & show me where I have mentioned anything about this. U really r trying hard to be a smart a$$.

Uncle Sam is your idol, no worse than Mao & CCP, no? I think there is a difference between using someone & supporting someone.

China = Utopia, perfection in every way.

Always amused by the way India critizes China over human right, as if India is heaven while China is hell.


Remind me how many tens of millions of Indians are still starving, how many tens of milions Indians are not receiving proper education, how many tens of millions are not having clean water, how many tens of millions are not using electricity...

Those are basic human rights, being abused by your govenment right now.

Self-knowledge is always what Indians lack most.

 

[Known_Unknown]

Always amused by way India critizes China over human right, as if India is a heaven while China is hell.


Remind me how many tens of millions of Indians are still starving, how many tens of milions Indians are not receiving proper education, how many tens of millions are not having clean water, how many tens of millions are not using electricity...

Those are basic human rights, being abused by your govenment right now.

Self-knowledge is always what Indians lack most.

The Indian government is not forcing or making those people starve or remain backward on purpose, unlike China. That's the difference.

 

[amoy]

Tongzhi exactly means 'comrade', but of course it's not a 'new word' from Russia.

But be cautious when using it because it takes on a new but 'modern' meaning in euphemism - gay/lesbian (Tong means the same)
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back to heavy subjects,
1) your knowledge abt China's history is awesome. by your mentioned standard of inner/outer/barbarian, I'm one of decendants of 'barbarians'. that conquest/expansion and assimilation took thousands of year before a modern nation took shape. when viewing your Kashmir or Assam I inevitably observe it from a similar perspective though in a different context.

2) u refer to past events like Cultural Revolution, Starvation... Frankly even in a 'totalitarian' state (in your eyes) Chinese still differ in regards of their implications/consequences/origins. but one thing for sure, Chairman Mao like Confucius, transformed the country and the people positively despite all his mistakes.

3) Tibet/Uigur/Dalai Lama (ethnic /cultural)- our difference is deeply rooted. Only to give u a SHALLOW example in response to your 'the rather subterfuge ...only those who learn Mandarin can get proper jobs' - When I was a pupil, we were 'forced' to learn Mandarin. Guess what? if someone was heard speaking non-Mandarin at school he would be fined. And now I'm grateful of such a 'policy' as pulling and bridging people together instead of dividing them in communication. What about the US the melting pot? and India?

4) Freedom from starvation - Just to show we put it as a basic of basic human rights... of course some others put 'liberty' ahead of it.

5) Learning abt the past helps us better understand the present ...

 

[Ray]

Always amused by the way India critizes China over human right, as if India is heaven while China is hell.


Remind me how many tens of millions of Indians are still starving, how many tens of milions Indians are not receiving proper education, how many tens of millions are not having clean water, how many tens of millions are not using electricity...

Those are basic human rights, being abused by your govenment right now.

Self-knowledge is always what Indians lack most.

It makes one feel most satisfied to know that Indians are bringing cheer and amusement to the Chinese people. Let us observe the material in the link below to understand how happy the Chinese are and how fair the CCP system is to the Chinese people:
Rural and Urban Inequality in China

A study of the areas of China like Xihaigu, Guangxi, Guizhou and Yunan and others will be adequate to prick the propaganda balloon regarding the bounties that they enjoy. Electricity, clean water, lush green fields with agriculture booming and so on?

As far as human rights, the world knows what is up in China. It does not require any Indian to endorse it, it being a universal truth. However, one had to enjoy freedom to understand what human rights are and what human rights abuse is! The Chinese naturally are not endowed to fathom this phenomenon.

China is not hell since their population historically has been trained to accept authority as a truism through their concept of Legalism, which indicates that the King/ ruler alone know what is best for the masses.

Yes, there is freedom to acquire knowledge in India and the government cannot indoctrinate the people in India.

No basic human rights are being flouted in India. Checked the transcripts?

 

[Yusuf]

Ray Sir,

You will have a hard time against the 50 cent army. They are well indoctrinated before they are put on the job.

 

[Ray]

Tongzhi exactly means 'comrade', but of course it's not a 'new word' from Russia.

But be cautious when using it because it takes on a new but 'modern' meaning in euphemism - gay/lesbian (Tong means the same)
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back to heavy subjects,
1) your knowledge abt China's history is awesome. by your mentioned standard of inner/outer/barbarian, I'm one of decendants of 'barbarians'. that conquest/expansion and assimilation took thousands of year before a modern nation took shape. when viewing your Kashmir or Assam I inevitably observe it from a similar perspective though in a different context.

2) u refer to past events like Cultural Revolution, Starvation... Frankly even in a 'totalitarian' state (in your eyes) Chinese still differ in regards of their implications/consequences/origins. but one thing for sure, Chairman Mao like Confucius, transformed the country and the people positively despite all his mistakes.

3) Tibet/Uigur/Dalai Lama (ethnic /cultural)- our difference is deeply rooted. Only to give u a SHALLOW example in response to your 'the rather subterfuge ...only those who learn Mandarin can get proper jobs' - When I was a pupil, we were 'forced' to learn Mandarin. Guess what? if someone was heard speaking non-Mandarin at school he would be fined. And now I'm grateful of such a 'policy' as pulling and bridging people together instead of dividing them in communication. What about the US the melting pot? and India?

4) Freedom from starvation - Just to show we put it as a basic of basic human rights... of course some others put 'liberty' ahead of it.

5) Learning abt the past helps us better understand the present ...

I am shocked and surprised that Tongzhi means people of alternate sex indulgences. And to believe that of recently times you all were calling each other so!!

If you are a descendant of a 'barbarian', you must be {i}hanhua{/i} or assimilated wai ren. For curiosity's sake the ancestors were cooked or raw as the nei ren classified them. Till the 1930s, they used to add animal radicals like the Di with the dog, the Man and Min[/i] with the reptiles, the Qiang with the sheep and so on.

In so far as Kashmir is concerned, I have mentioned how Gilani and Wani were caught in a transcript plotting to agitate the people so that at least 15 to 16 or the people were killed and the whole government action given a bad name! Assam is foreign funded and the leaders operate from foreign countries and funded by foreign sources. If they were against the Indian State, then there would have been no Assam Regiment in the Indian Army!

Chinese now have a different take on the Cultural Revolution since Mao is dead and Deng who was practically under the wraps was rehabilitated and became the Boss. If you ask a Chinese if Mao was wrong, they will say 30% wrong and 70% right! These figures never change with the change of individual asked, leading one to feel that this is the officially instructed view.

The fact that people learnt Mandarin were assimilated 'barbarian' is indicative that the original identity culture, language etc has been crushed. It is almost like an assembly like product! I presume in a way it is good and in a way it is bad.

US is a melting pot because it has no indigenous culture or tradition. It is a potpourri. India is unique, in that inspite of so much of divergence it still functions as one country and each of its people zealously preserve their singularity and yet emerge as one country. It also makes me wonder what input that is there that there is no ambiguity in its unitary structure.
Starvation, as I see it, is not quite a human right. Being free is desirable, but then it is not the State's responsibility alone. Further, in many families, where all had equal opportunity, some do well and some are laggards. In the US also there are panholders. Does it mean that the US is flouting human rights?

Indeed, Liberty is a very important issue. I would hate being ordered around even if it is for my own good. I sure would hate to be a robot and given the status that I am brain and intelligence deficient and am incapable of charting my own route to life.

History is good. However, being slave to it I a sign of a feeble minded person who requires his ancestors and their deed to egg him on his way!

 

[amoy]

1) chinese seldom call each other Tongzhi as it has a strong political sense (for 20years+).

2) lots of tribes/ethnic groups have their totems. for example Qiang (actually its Chinese character is similar to sheep 'Yang')) has Goat/sheep as totem. Qiang is one of sources of Tibetan (migrating westward to Tibet Plateau) and Han (eastward to Yellow River reaches). my ancestors were assimilated thousands of years ago. their totem was snake/dragon (that's also how those animal radicals came about)

3) 30% vs 70% for Chairman Mao , or 50% vs 50% or.... - still controversial. a thousand Hamlets alike. It's also related to how one views Chinese traditions/rituals/social structures. Some think 'Cultural Revolution' smashed those 'bad' things so it's positive. Some may feel disheartened for what it has ruined. unlike before, Chinese nowadays have started to feel more and more positive about Mao.

During my visit of a Tibetan village near Four-girl Mountain, I saw they pasted both portraits of Chairman Mao and Dalai Lama on wall!! surprised, I asked why. they told me Dalai Lama their spiritual leader, while Mao was the liberator who distributed lands to them confiscated from monasteries/aristocrats. contradictory? Dalai Lama even wrote poems to Mao depicting him as a living Buddha.

that's why it's said 'seeing is believing'.

4) Liberty - yes

 

[171K]

nimo_cn,

I FULLY accept India's problems. And your comparison is ridiculous, in India tens of millions were not brutally murdered by those in power.

Remind me how many of the top 20 most polluted cities in the world are Chinese?

Anyways all this is off topic.

ps - I agree self-knowledge is always what Chinese lack most, all the Chinese know is what CCP feeds them.

 

[Yusuf]

Ok, dont get sucked into the flame. Chinese posters, come with facts before you spout your rubbish. Ray has given a whole 23 page report on China. What do you have to say about that.