INSAS Indian Small Arms System

[tarunraju]

yes but an admiral of the navy would have no clue about company attack if you catch my drift. wow Maj Gen thats pretty high up.

We were talking about if Mr. Biswas is serving in the forces, he is, and judging by his posts on firearms you can deduce he's versed with company attack, and importantly armaments. Please continue.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I think your national pride is clouding you're mind, are you in the Indian military as a Infantryman if you are I'll take your word for it no rebuttal, if not there are plenty of articles against your claims

Take my words!
You can only assume by reading article, but in practical world i used Insas and i know about its capability!!
Same way i doubt M4, but only when i fire i would know....
But i wont start assuming!!

 

[Tamil_Canuck]

We were talking about if Mr. Biswas is serving in the forces, he is, and judging by his posts on firearms you can deduce he's versed with company attack, and importantly armaments. Please continue.

with all due respect I highly doubt Mr Biswas is a serving member, due to his lack of knowledge on firearms and tactics.
unless he is willing to prove me wrong.

@biswas may I ask you what trade you are in ?

 

[Tamil_Canuck]

Take my words!
You can only assume by reading article, but in practical world i used Insas and i know about its capability!!
Same way i doubt M4, but only when i fire i would know....
But i wont start assuming!!

used as in fired in a range few times ? I'm not going to take your word until you tell me you at least did a military exercise with it.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

used as in fired in a range few times ? I'm not going to take your word until you tell me you at least did a military exercise with it.

Dont u think, its better to PM me about personal talks!
Btw, I already proved the capability of Insas!
Also what does it matter if i am in Army or not??
Technical info and performance proves Insas capability..
Show me more Articles and i will tell u where they made mistakes...

 

[Tamil_Canuck]

Dont u think, its better to PM me about personal talks!
Btw, I already proved the capability of Insas!
Also what does it matter if i am in Army or not??
Technical info and performance proves Insas capability..
Show me more Articles and i will tell u where they made mistakes...

I rest my case. thanks for playing, telling me what trade you're in is not PERSEC or OPSEC.
it does matter if you are in the army or not because shooting at the range is not same as being a frontline soldier and most people would agree with me.
also how are you a military professional if you are not in the military ?

also you haven't proved anything all you said was you fired INSAS and you thinks its reliable because you fired it and you have no tactical knowledge what so ever.
not to mention the flash suppressor on the INSAS makes a huge flash. also jams in the cold,magazine breaks due to cold and heavy as the old FN FAL which again weights 4.3 kg.

 

[Daredevil]

I think your national pride is clouding you're mind, are you in the Indian military as a Infantryman if you are I'll take your word for it no rebuttal, if not there are plenty of articles against your claims

Tamil Sir,

Here is a post on page 2 of this very thread by a retired Brigadier from Indian Army. This is what he had to say

I have graduated from the .303 to 7.62 SLR to AK 47 and then onto the INSAS. I have no complaints against any of the weapons. Even as a senior officer, I still had to pass the Annual Range Classification and so the rank has nothing to do with firing weapons.

I learn that there is a thought that the INSAS is too fragile and has stoppages. Well, yes, INSAS is fragile compared to the AKs. Stoppages occur due to defective ammunition and poor maintenance. It can happen to any weapon. However, if there is a grouse, it is because the jawans are comparing it the AKs which are relatively maintenance proof. The grouse is causative of a lazy mindset in my opinion. Further, jawans are rugged and so they empathise with anything that is rugged. There has been no complaints about the accuracy of the INSAS vs AK 47.

There is also a group that feels that 5.56 is not lethal. If it were not so, how come terrorists succumb to INSAS fire? And anyway, why don't they stand in front and face a INSAS shot and stay alive to tell the tale?

In my opinion, all this change of calibre hype is US military industry driven. If an Army has to change their weapons, imagine the profits reaped by the military industry!!

The British Army has a rifle that is 5.56 and has an effective range of 450m, so does INSAS. There is no requirement to fire beyond with a rifle since there is a plethora of weapons that are designed for longer distances. Accuracy at long distance is difficult to maintain and so long distance weapons are normally automatic in fire and so the hit probability increases. Now, if the rifle also is automatic and long distance, then by the time the enemy closes in or we close in, the ammunition will be expended. Then, the whole action will come to nought. That is why being able to hit at 300 yds is adequate and more so since the individual being fired at can be identified with the naked eye.

One could say the rifle could have a scope. True. But if you look through a scope, you are lost to the immediate combat environment! A rifleman has to be aware of the immediate combat environment.

The INSAS is perfectly fine in the CI environment as is AK 47. What makes it unfit? I hope someone will elaborate.

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/sh...us-Insas-rifle?p=117475&viewfull=1#post117475

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I rest my case. thanks for playing, telling me what trade you're in is not PERSEC or OPSEC.
it does matter if you are in the army or not because shooting at the range is not same as being a frontline soldier and most people would agree with me.
also how are you a military professional if you are not in the military ?

PERSEC, 14GTC ( Army guys would know ).

also you haven't proved anything all you said was you fired INSAS and you thinks its reliable because you fired it and you have no tactical knowledge what so ever.
not to mention the flash suppressor on the INSAS makes a huge flash. also jams in the cold,magazine breaks due to cold and heavy as the old FN FAL which again weights 4.3 kg.

1 Now when i said abt huge flash on regular Insas rifle?
2 Breaking of mags and jamming was a 1999 story, today is 2010!

Ps. Nothing personal with you, Its just u want to ignore the facts and stick with decade old story..
Its upto u believe or not!

 

[Tamil_Canuck]

Tamil Sir,

Here is a post on page 2 of this very thread by a retired Brigadier from Indian Army. This is what he had to say

Great article thank you. The Respected general talks about the battle space tactical aspect of the weapon rather than section tactics.
I agree with the general but weapon that needs proper maintenance everyday is not the weapon I would want to go to war with. its not the laziness of the soldier if you re in a sandy desert had contact with enemy for 5 hours, the enemy is not going to give you 5 mins break to clean your weapon. This is why i hate officers who are not enlisted first, before accepting commission every officer must serve with lower ranks to understand and be in our shoes.
this has nothing to do with US industry vs Indian industry especially frontline soldiers need the best they can get because a simple stupid jam can cause them their life. so if you are patriotic as you sound you should support your infantrymen by getting them top class weapons.

The INSAS is perfectly fine in the CI environment as is AK 47. What makes it unfit? I hope someone will elaborate

I can explain as a FIBUA qualifed infantryman longer weapon like INSAS in compact spaces restricts movement. It might not seem like its a lot to regular people but when you actually stack up against a wall and do it its totally different. Think of it as fighting in a telephone booth what would you choose a switch blade or sword (bad analogy i know couldn't think of any better )
if the rifle is long enough an insurgent hiding behind a room could just grab your rifle by the barrel which compromises your whole plan because clearing a room shouldn't take more than 15 to 20 seconds


sorry for the rant and grammer/spelling errors

 

[Tamil_Canuck]

PERSEC, 14GTC ( Army guys would know ).

i don't know what you just said PERSEC means Personal Security its not a trade and I have never ever heard of a trade called 14GTC



1 Now when i said abt huge flash on regular Insas rifle?
2 Breaking of mags was a 1999 story, today is 2010!
3 I said fal was 7-8kgs..

1. you never did i said the flash on INSAS is bigger compared to other rifles
2. maybe they fixed it i could be wrong
3. no wrong FN FAL is not more than 5kg the heaviest one is 5.95kg which is the Light Machine Gun (LMG) version

 

[Kunal Biswas]

1. you never did i said the flash on INSAS is bigger compared to other rifles
2. maybe they fixed it i could be wrong
3. no wrong FN FAL is not more than 5kg the heaviest one is 5.95kg which is the Light Machine Gun (LMG) version

Insas makes almost no flash!
Any article pls share!

 

[p2prada]

INSAS has been battle tested during the Kargil war. Most of the problems being echoed are what happened in 1999. Jamming and malfunctions have since then been rectified by the manufacturers. The gun is reliable and proven. But, if I were a soldier I would still want more.

AK-47 is a benchmark for ruggedness. Comparing any other gun to it will not do any justice to the weapon in the maintenance department.

@Tamil_Canuck
Kunal Biswas was referring to the Indian version of the FN_FAL. It was called the 1A SLR and was a rip off of the original. It was reverse engineered a long time ago and it weighed nearly 7-8 kgs. It has seen service for nearly 45-50 years This is not the original NATO standard weapon.

IA is actually happy with the INSAS. They are currently looking at a new gun after INSAS has been in service for over 12 years. Media tends to hype this because IA has submitted RFPs from foreign vendors instead of asking for a new gun development from the OFB.

If INSAS were not good, then a rich country like Oman would not have chosen it for their military.

 

[p2prada]

1. you never did i said the flash on INSAS is bigger compared to other rifles

There is hardly any flash.

A video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MUp93HooCo&feature=related

 

[Tamil_Canuck]

INSAS has been battle tested during the Kargil war. Most of the problems being echoed are what happened in 1999. Jamming and malfunctions have since then been rectified by the manufacturers. The gun is reliable and proven. But, if I were a soldier I would still want more.

AK-47 is a benchmark for ruggedness. Comparing any other gun to it will not do any justice to the weapon in the maintenance department.

@Tamil_Canuck
Kunal Biswas was referring to the Indian version of the FN_FAL. It was called the 1A SLR and was a rip off of the original. It was reverse engineered a long time ago and it weighed nearly 7-8 kgs. It has seen service for nearly 45-50 years This is not the original NATO standard weapon.

IA is actually happy with the INSAS. They are currently looking at a new gun after INSAS has been in service for over 12 years. Media tends to hype this because IA has submitted RFPs from foreign vendors instead of asking for a new gun development from the OFB.

If INSAS were not good, then a rich country like Oman would not have chosen it for their military.

ok i gave my 2cents on the article i guess it really depends on the bureaucrats.
8kg rifle thats tactically retarded why not issue every one of them a machine gun

 

[Kunal Biswas]

ok i gave my 2cents on the article i guess it really depends on the bureaucrats.
8kg rifle thats tactically retarded why not issue every one of them a machine gun

Lets make a another thread call Indian FAL and talk abt it!
This thread is related to INSAS..

 

[Tamil_Canuck]

There is hardly any flash.

A video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MUp93HooCo&feature=related

obviously its a mid day.....even 50cals dont have flash
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZoelnF87Fg&feature=related

Biswas since you are 8th GR
what is your regular rifle marching pace ?

 

[p2prada]

ok i gave my 2cents on the article i guess it really depends on the bureaucrats.
8kg rifle thats tactically retarded why not issue every one of them a machine gun

We were broke at that time. So, reverse engineering a gun without a capable industry in the 60s was a joke. Still I cannot disrespect the SLR because it was the backbone of our army since the 1965 Indo-Pak war.

It was the best we had for the time. It was replaced by the INSAS which weighed half that. The AK-47 is a preferred gun along with the INSAS.

There are reports of Iraqis preferring to use AK-47 and other east bloc weapons to American weapons too.

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2010/me_iraq0439_05_21.asp

So, it is basically a matter of perception.

 

[Rahul Singh]

how does it perform in FIBUA operations ?
I can only imagine how horrible it must be doing a gunfighter stance with a 4.1kg rifle

This is INSAS Excalibur and weights 3.6kg. Unfortunately army, to popular belief, because of some non-technical, non-tactical reasons didn't gave any chance to this riffle. As a matter of fact this riffle matches and excels INSAS 1b1 in every aspect yet it weights 400gm less.

 

[Logan]

Can we keep the thread to a general debating level rather than hurling personal remarks at each other.I think we all will be better of doing so.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Army finds INSAS rifles 'reliable'

Sep 07, 2005 at 0218 hrs IST

New delhi, september 6 Intensive tests on INSAS rifle, the Indian Army's mainstay, have confirmed its "robustness and reliability" even in "intense operational scenarios."

The result of the tests, conducted at Mhow between August 18 and 20, would be communicated to Kathmandu, which had complained about the rifle's "unreliability" and blamed it for the reverses it suffered against the Maoists.

The Army's Infantry School in Mhow tested 44 INSAS rifles of the Platoon Weapons Division, simulating an "intense operational scenario." The rifles were put through alternative tests of short-burst firing and single-shot firing.

The report of the tests says the rate of fire and performance during high cyclic load was "acceptable". A total of 12,237 rounds were fired. The total number of "stoppages" — where rounds get jammed during continuous use — was under one per cent, a vindication of the Army's stand, since the international norm for small arms is two per cent.

The report says out of 44 rifles, only 15 faced stoppages, and only three more than eight stoppages. Barring the three, the average stoppage was only 0.66 per cent, the report adds.

Apart from stoppages, the test team in Mhow, which included one JCO and four Havildar-rank instructors, encountered "no breakages or defects with the INSAS rifle", as claimed by the Royal Nepalese Army (RNA). The RNA had complained that the INSAS it used broke down during fighting, which resulted in some of its men falling to the Maoists' bullets. The rifles were operated for 30 minutes at a stretch, simulating the scenario in which the RNA operates.

Army Chief Gen J J Singh had last month backed the rifle at the Infantry Commanders' Conference in Mhow.

Since a decade old news are in use in this thread for supporting cause against INSAS IAR i thought posting this 5 year old news will not be wrong..