INS Vishal (IAC- II) Aircraft Carrier - Flattop or Ski Jump

[silentlurker]

ACs can provide air defense and air strike capability for the surface fleet or land force. It is the core of power projection which is the only thing can protect your economic interest in the local area when you don't have local military base.

Who is a 60000 ton carrier realistically going to "project power" to? Africa? Who is going to do or not do business with India on the basis of their carriers?

In their numerous military drills. Their main role was: getting as much close to US ACs as they can to launch their own anti-ship missiles and cover those cruisers behind them launching more missiles.

So you're saying naval drills "prove" that Russian naval doctrine was low effeciency? No one knows how well their strategy would have worked against US CVBGs because it never happened.

 

[johnq]

The world should cut China (and Chinese trolls) access to the internet.

 

[FalconSlayers]

Happen as early as 2026-27. 2030-31 we'll be at least a 7 trillion dollar economy. Third largest.

What is your opinion on land prices getting increased by gevernment? Coz it will enable high rise buildings and Sky Scrapers to be built in huge numbers. My family lives in Dwarka, New Delhi and cost of Land is very high just like Mumbai (Not as expensive as mumbai but its expensive to buy land in New Delhi). And the cost of Land in New Delhi is high because of huge population density here. Thats why New Delhi has thousands of High Rise buildings for residential purposes alone in Dwarka.

Sky Scrapers will increase tourism. Hence government should increase land prices with taxes and all So that everyone buys flats instead of occupying a lot of land for personal bungalows.


The increase will enable us buy more weapons as Vishal is a necessity along with subs coz a carrier battle group is the worst thing your enemy would like to face.

And anyhow our ASW capabilities are high.

 

[Trololo]

My 2 cents on Indian carriers:

1> Vikramaditya and Vikrant are more than enough to man the eastern and western seaboards.
2> Andaman is our fortress. P8s, Brahmos armed Sukhois, Drones, missiles, etc etc can be packed into it. Andaman alone should be given the capability to sink any large PLAN surface flotilla.
3> STOBAR carriers place inherent limitations on aircraft load out. In that regard its best to avoid buying Rafales and Super Hornets for navy. Buy some more MiG 29Ks instead.
4> MKIze the MiG 29Ks with the upcoming MWFs avionics and domestically developed weapons. The MiG 29K's avionics upgrade can make it an excellent aircraft, and the best in this part of the world for a navy.
5> Focus on research on naval nuclear reactors for carriers. Take help from the French or Russians if needed.
6> A stretched design of the Vikrant with these reactors should be our next carrier focus.

 

[FalconSlayers]

Unless India was operating CATOBAR carriers with Rafales, sinking more money into carriers is not worth it. The Mig-29k is heavy on maintenance and limited on payload operating from STOBAR carriers, and the Tejas Navy is also not being accepted in its current configuration and will take time.
India is very lucky to have islands in strategic areas. Instead of sinking more money into carriers, I would suggest building more airfields on Andaman, Nicobar and other islands, and turning them into fortresses (unsinkable carriers) with SAMS, long range missiles and long range fighter bombers like the Rafale that can take off with full payload from airfields.

I feel that there should be a Regiment of S-400 separately purchased additionally for deployment in Andaman and Nicobar Islands.

 

[Trololo]

I feel that there should be a Regiment of S-400 separately purchased additionally for deployment in Andaman and Nicobar Islands.

Spot on. And not just S400 but silos of cruise missiles, carrier killing ballistic missiles and possibly Agni 6 type ICBMs, hidden under the forest cover.

 

[FalconSlayers]

Spot on. And not just S400 but silos of cruise missiles, carrier killing ballistic missiles and possibly Agni 6 type ICBMs, hidden under the forest cover.

And a PDV and AAD regiment also.
I feel Navy and Airforce should jointly fund purchase of 2 squadrons of Aircraft for dedicated deployment in A&N Islands as there is no permanent deployment of fighters there only a few land and takeoff during regular sorties.

 

[Knowitall]

Yaar
Chinese economy is growing.
I feel Lockdown was useless as it only destroyed our economy.
a reduction of 23.9% in a quarter is more dangerous than a 23.9% reduction in a year.

No need to feel sad just look around the world countries are entering second lock down while US is facing the wrath of covid.

All this chaos and you have this one country which is all calm.

This was their plan pretty much.

As for lockdown it was not useless it helped us construct and prepare for surge situations and source kits and other important equipment.

We went from PPP kit and mask importer to exporter. Same for ventilators.


You can say thanks to locdown India was vale to prevent what happened in italy people dying in their homes etc.

China's rise is a foregone conclusion atleast for now need to feel sad over that.

 

[Killbot]

What is your opinion on land prices getting increased by gevernment? Coz it will enable high rise buildings and Sky Scrapers to be built in huge numbers. My family lives in Dwarka, New Delhi and cost of Land is very high just like Mumbai (Not as expensive as mumbai but its expensive to buy land in New Delhi). And the cost of Land in New Delhi is high because of huge population density here. Thats why New Delhi has thousands of High Rise buildings for residential purposes alone in Dwarka.

Sky Scrapers will increase tourism. Hence government should increase land prices with taxes and all So that everyone buys flats instead of occupying a lot of land for personal bungalows.


The increase will enable us buy more weapons as Vishal is a necessity along with subs coz a carrier battle group is the worst thing your enemy would like to face.

And anyhow our ASW capabilities are high.

I think land prices increase with demand.. And yeah, government wants to build more high rises. 900 or so are coming up in Bangalore for residence purposes only in the next 6-7 years. I think it has more to do with there being no land for residential purposes than tourism.. Increasing land prices isn't going to faze anyone who has enough money to build a bungalow. And rich people are moving towards luxury condos anyway.

Coming to INS Vishal, we cannot afford it right now.. Situation may change in the next 5-6 years or so. But if project is sanctioned then, it'll take at least until 2035 to get it commisioned. And that is being optimistic.

 

[no smoking]

Who is a 60000 ton carrier realistically going to "project power" to?

Well, let me check:

French aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle, 42000 tons in Libya;
British aircraft carriers - Hermes (28000 tons) and Invincible (22000 tons) in Falklands war;

Africa? Who is going to do or not do business with India on the basis of their carriers?

It is not about going to do or not do business with India. It is about the India's economic interest in the local area.

Just imagine a new government of African country decided to confiscate all Indian companies' property/asset in this country and terminate all the contracts signed before. What is the best way to protect India's interest? International court? or India's aircraft carrier?

So you're saying naval drills "prove" that Russian naval doctrine was low effeciency? No one knows how well their strategy would have worked against US CVBGs because it never happened.

Who said that was low efficient doctrine?
That was the only doctrine that can possibly work. What else can they do? Asking for enough money to build a navy that can match USN in every perspective? Or hiding in the harbor and watching US AC strike force wipe out the Russian coast?

 

[silentlurker]

Using destroyers to sink AC was just Soviet's wildest dream during cold war, which proved to be low efficiency.

Who said that was low efficient doctrine?

 

[Trololo]

I know I am sounding like a broken record, but all said and done, 2 large nuclear carriers which can carry 4th gen (Rafale or TEDBF type), naval 5th gen fighters, AWACS, Choppers, and Naval UCAVs are in our interest if we are to project power beyond the IOR and take the fight to the SCS.
1> We already have a good design in the shape of the INS Vikrant. A first cut of 2 carriers can be a larger Vikrant design, with improvements/ enhancements made both in house as well as from foreign consultancy.
2> Ind already has boomer grade reactors. The same can be enlarged and enhanced for carriers. In the first iteration even if it means our reactors need to be refueled then that too is acceptable. Perhaps the Russians or French can act as consultants if need be. Arihant project's gains must be taken forward.
3> Indigenous carrier based fighters and their pilots must be interoperable with US carriers. Why? Perhaps because given how things are shaping up a mega armed clash with Cheen is inevitable. Interoperability with US carriers will be a huge advantage then.
4> Money will be pumped into domestic R&D + MSMEs. No brainer.
5> In any case the IAC-1 or VKD is more than enough to handle land of the pure.

When an Indian carrier moves to the SCS there is a second unsinkable carrier behind it in Andaman to hold the rear guard.

Given how the economy currently is, perhaps the design work on IAC-2 can be started and the R&D for the reactors can begin. At a better time maybe in 2-4 years the order for the first ship can be placed. Already there is technology in the country for distributed ship building. Perhaps this can be improved and leveraged further for this project. By the time the carrier is ready for induction by maybe mid 2030s the TEDBF will be ready.

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

China is making 4 Aircraft carriers operational by 2030, not only they are more in number than us, but also larger than our existing and planned ones.

Their first aircraft carrier Type 001 is smaller than ours at 43,000 tonnes but their first indigenously built Aircraft carrier Type 002 is a 70,000 tonne STOBAR carrier, their 3rd aircraft carrier under construction is a 85,000 CATOBAR carrier and their 4th aircraft carrier under construction is a 1,00,000 Tonne Nuclear EMALS carrier.

I think we should go for the Russian Shtorm aircraft carrier that they offered us.
but again some problems in ToT will arise.

Our INS Vikramaditya is a 45,400 Tonne STOBAR carrier, IAC-1 INS Vikrant is a 40,000 Tonne aircraft carrier whereas the Supposed IAC-2 INS Vishal is going to be a 65,000 Tonne EMALS Carrier.

How are we going to counter china when her first Indigenous carrier is bigger than our 2nd indigenous carrier? China will project power like hell.

We have the largest permanent carrier the PLA Navy can never match. We have INS Andaman & Nicobar waiting to pour some serious lead on PLA carriers. If we can convert minicoy in Lakshadweep into another permanent combined command, then PLA Navy carriers will be toast wherever they go.

We have the real estate to dominate the entirety of Indian ocean. But we need to become a $5 trillion+ economy soon and $10 trillion+ a decade or so after that, if we hope to have enough moneys to compete with the CCP mega spending.

 

[Trololo]

Correct no doubt. But if we need to take the fight to the SCS 2 large carriers with their respective CBGs will be needed. Perhaps at some point military bases in Vietnam and Philippines as well from which long range armed aircraft can be sent out.

 

[johnq]

Who told you that? Media or politician? Unfortunately, they don't make decision of investment, the businessmen do and they don't agree with you.



Why should the whole world boycott China when the whole world has been benefited from Chinese cheap products: the developed countries can keep their people's living standard when their actual income was declining; the developing countries can raising their people's living standard with the same amount. Just imagine that how many poor people in Africa/Asia/South America can afford an Ipone or Samsung.

Why can't Chinese propagandists ever learn proper English. It's not "world has been benefited," just "world has benefited." Please go back to grade school and learn simple grammar and spelling before selling Chinese Communist Party propaganda; it's Iphone not Ipone. If I was your propaganda supervisor, I would send you to Xinjiang. And please stop selling off-topic Chinese propaganda in this thread. I suggest to all members to report such behavior to the admins.

I noticed the same thing when you were defending the Chinese Communist government in the China economy thread, saying that the Uyghurs were not being mistreated at all. You know, the same Uyghurs who work as slaves to make those Chinese phones for free. How have they benefited?

But go ahead, keep looking the other way to avoid seeing the suffering of Uyghurs, Tibetans and other overworked Chinese slaves. It's what CCP brainwashed drones do best. As long as it's not your family.

The poor countries that are currently being taken over by CCP-associated companies (and becoming dependent on Communist China) will eventually also have their people slave under the yoke of China's brutal communist regime. I'm sure they will be very thankful for their crappy Chinese phones when they are slaving through 16 hour shifts while living on 2 bowls of pork noodle soup.

 

[Tridev123]

I know I am sounding like a broken record, but all said and done, 2 large nuclear carriers which can carry 4th gen (Rafale or TEDBF type), naval 5th gen fighters, AWACS, Choppers, and Naval UCAVs are in our interest if we are to project power beyond the IOR and take the fight to the SCS.
1> We already have a good design in the shape of the INS Vikrant. A first cut of 2 carriers can be a larger Vikrant design, with improvements/ enhancements made both in house as well as from foreign consultancy.
2> Ind already has boomer grade reactors. The same can be enlarged and enhanced for carriers. In the first iteration even if it means our reactors need to be refueled then that too is acceptable. Perhaps the Russians or French can act as consultants if need be. Arihant project's gains must be taken forward.
3> Indigenous carrier based fighters and their pilots must be interoperable with US carriers. Why? Perhaps because given how things are shaping up a mega armed clash with Cheen is inevitable. Interoperability with US carriers will be a huge advantage then.
4> Money will be pumped into domestic R&D + MSMEs. No brainer.
5> In any case the IAC-1 or VKD is more than enough to handle land of the pure.

When an Indian carrier moves to the SCS there is a second unsinkable carrier behind it in Andaman to hold the rear guard.

Given how the economy currently is, perhaps the design work on IAC-2 can be started and the R&D for the reactors can begin. At a better time maybe in 2-4 years the order for the first ship can be placed. Already there is technology in the country for distributed ship building. Perhaps this can be improved and leveraged furtheryo for this project. By the time the carrier is ready for induction by maybe mid 2030s the TEDBF will be ready.

Are you happy with our sea based second strike capability?.
Do we have enough SSBN's and SSN''s to complete our minimum second strike capability?. SSBN' s without protection from SSN's will be quite vulnerable.

Power projection and sea dominance can only follow minimum sea denial capability. Submarines whether conventional or nuclear are best instruments for sea denial. If you cannot make the Indian Ocean area safe what is the use of venturing into the South China Sea.

There is a priority list which should be followed as wisdom dictates. Our finances are not infinite.

 

[Trololo]

Are you happy with our sea based second strike capability?.
Do we have enough SSBN's and SSN''s to complete our minimum second strike capability?. SSBN' s without protection from SSN's will be quite vulnerable.

Power projection and sea dominance can only follow minimum sea denial capability. Submarines whether conventional or nuclear are best instruments for sea denial. If you cannot make the Indian Ocean area safe what is the use of venturing into the South China Sea.

There is a priority list which should be followed as wisdom dictates. Our finances are not infinite.

Very important point which is why I have suggested in a different thread to continue Scorpene line with another 6-8 SSKs with DRDO AIP plug, followed by domestic SSK, while scrapping P75-I. All the while SSBN and SSN line should go unhindered. The carriers can be procured in staggered fashion. But R&D on the reactor front needs to begin immediately.

 

[Tridev123]

Very important point which is why I have suggested in a different thread to continue Scorpene line with another 6-8 SSKs with DRDO AIP plug, followed by domestic SSK, while scrapping P75-I. All the while SSBN and SSN line should go unhindered. The carriers can be procured in staggered fashion. But R&D on the reactor front needs to begin immediately.

I agree that the Scorpene production line at Mazagaon Docks should be kept running with an follow on order of 3 to 6 subs. Otherwise we will lose the expertise in a few years. Maybe a bigger Scorpene. I believe the French have already designed a bigger version of the original Scorpene. AIP is a must.

No harm in conducting research on a 500 to 1000 MW miniaturised nuclear reactor for an aircraft carrier. But I believe that task will not be easy. BARC has still not fully mastered miniaturisation of reactors for naval use. These naval reactors usually use enriched uranium fuel. Our power reactors do not use medium or highly enriched uranium as fuel. I believe we are ramping up supply of highly enriched uranium using centrifuges at facilities in Karnataka state.

Maybe we could shorten the development time by taking help from Russia or France. Russia has already helped us in the smaller < 100 MW nuclear reactors for our SSBN's.

Increasing the defence budget is becoming a problem. An above 10% annual GDP growth will make more funds available for defence.

 

[Trololo]

I agree that the Scorpene production line at Mazagaon Docks should be kept running with an follow on order of 3 to 6 subs. Otherwise we will lose the expertise in a few years. Maybe a bigger Scorpene. I believe the French have already designed a bigger version of the original Scorpene. AIP is a must.

No harm in conducting research on a 500 to 1000 MW miniaturised nuclear reactor for an aircraft carrier. But I believe that task will not be easy. BARC has still not fully mastered miniaturisation of reactors for naval use. These naval reactors usually use enriched uranium fuel. Our power reactors do not use medium or highly enriched uranium as fuel. I believe we are ramping up supply of highly enriched uranium using centrifuges at facilities in Karnataka state.

Maybe we could shorten the development time by taking help from Russia or France. Russia has already helped us in the smaller < 100 MW nuclear reactors for our SSBN's.

Increasing the defence budget is becoming a problem. An above 10% annual GDP growth will make more funds available for defence.

Economic growth at 10% or more will certainly accelerate this.
Correct. consultancy from the Russians or French is vital for the naval reactor to reduce development time. That being said, if our initial reactors are of an older grade which requires refueling every 10-15 years then that too is an acceptable solution now. We can sweeten the deal for the French or Russians to help with the naval tech by giving their goods preferential access to Indian markets or importing their reactors wholesale for our nuclear power program.

 

[Swiftfarts]

Unless India was operating CATOBAR carriers with Rafales, sinking more money into carriers is not worth it. The Mig-29k is heavy on maintenance and limited on payload operating from STOBAR carriers, and the Tejas Navy is also not being accepted in its current configuration and will take time.
India is very lucky to have islands in strategic areas. Instead of sinking more money into carriers, I would suggest building more airfields on Andaman, Nicobar and other islands, and turning them into fortresses (unsinkable carriers) with SAMS, long range missiles and long range fighter bombers like the Rafale that can take off with full payload from airfields.

What will you do if PLA navy has all there assets along with support and supply infrastructure within indian Ocean ? Gawadar ( Porkistan ) , Djibouti , Thailand etc. You can sink few oil tankers probably but i Do not think Chinese are so dumb to pass there strategic assets from Malacca straight if real war happens.