INS Vishal (IAC- II) Aircraft Carrier

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Which foreign submarines has a better prospect to be chosen by indian navies requirments in both categories sub

For ssbn I think barracuda has a better chance correct me if I'm wrong
The two categories of submarines which I had mentioned were SSBN and SSN. Coming to SSBN then India is not purchasing SSBN from another country, all our SSBNs are being made in India itself Indigenously in our own Indian Shipyards. Read about Arihant class nuclear subs. All Arihant class subs are designed and built and are still being built in India itself. So India will never outsource an SSBN from another nation and no country even sells such assets because nuke subs like SSBNs act as nuclear deterrence, you might get SSNs on the market but not SSBNs.

Coming to talk of SSNS now then as of now I don't know but there is a program called as project 75 Alpha (not to be confused with P-75, P-75I, P-75 Alpha is completely different project). Under P-75 we Intend to Indigenously design and build SSN class attack submarines.
 

johnj

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Which foreign submarines has a better prospect to be chosen by indian navies requirments in both categories sub
For ssbn I think barracuda has a better chance correct me if I'm wrong
Drdo/Korean. HSL/russian. --- know why.
IN not buying ssbn from foreign countries.
Barracuda is ssn not ssbn.
 

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Its not about China or Pak, but US. What if Pak mobilise troops to border, from where India going to buy smart ammunitions ?
It's not just about weapons nor just India buying weapons from US is going to make their economy touch skies (India itself produces sufficient ammo for Pak though).

US indeed keeps an eye on its potential rivals and tries to keep them defanged. And military build up done against China won't come useful against US. Economy is only thing where India can catch up and pursue a military strong as US, only way to dilute potential American threat. (Though even if surpass US economy in 30 years, they will remain technologically superior anyways).
Indian firepower within Indian Ocean is already upto mark to avoid any US invasion too.

So as far as neighbourhood is concerned, India will not face any attack unless they have a crazy suicidal leader like Hitler.
Currently China have nothing to gain from Indo-pak war, they focus more on lac, cpec etc.
A prolonged Russia Ukraine war like thing in IndoPak will certainly release pressure on China from India front.
Japan is China's short term threat. US is a long term threat due to its humongous strength and India is a long term threat due to its expanding strength.
Keeping Pakistan afloat ensures a busy India.
What US current gov want from pak & ind ? just support against russia or more ?
They want India as a vassal state like Germany and not an eyesore like France which could become another China in future.

India all these decades did not suffer implant of a foreign sponsored government, thanks to political instability, politically conscious citizens, left-right political conflicts here.
Which foreign submarines has a better prospect to be chosen by indian navies requirments in both categories sub

For ssbn I think barracuda has a better chance correct me if I'm wrong
No foreign submarines are available to purchase as alternative to nuclear submarines, that's why so much time and money is invested to get them at first place.

India though will be making P75I class (conventional Indian built with foreign designs) and then P76 class (completely Indian design) which might face better alternatives. But since the idea is to acquire in-house capability to avoid dependence on other countries, no alternatives will be given to armed forces.

Indian tech will become more safe and reliable with time if homegrown manufacturing goes on just like China and Japan did.

The vision is to increase Indian submarine strength to 24-30 submarines by 2035 before reaching the humongous 60~70 submarine fleets of US, Russia and China. Foreign purchases may be needed in that. Once in house reliance is in entirety, no one can stop Indian Navy from being third largest in world.
 

johnj

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It's not just about weapons nor just India buying weapons from US is going to make their economy touch skies (India itself produces sufficient ammo for Pak though).

US indeed keeps an eye on its potential rivals and tries to keep them defanged. And military build up done against China won't come useful against US. Economy is only thing where India can catch up and pursue a military strong as US, only way to dilute potential American threat. (Though even if surpass US economy in 30 years, they will remain technologically superior anyways).
Indian firepower within Indian Ocean is already upto mark to avoid any US invasion too.

So as far as neighbourhood is concerned, India will not face any attack unless they have a crazy suicidal leader like Hitler.

A prolonged Russia Ukraine war like thing in IndoPak will certainly release pressure on China from India front.
Japan is China's short term threat. US is a long term threat due to its humongous strength and India is a long term threat due to its expanding threat.
Keeping Pakistan afloat ensures a busy India.

They want India is a vassal state like Germany and not an eyesore like France which could become another China in future.

India all these decades did not suffer implant of a foreign sponsored government, thanks to political instability, politically conscious citizens, left-right political conflicts here.
I'm not talking about war or 1999 situation, or recent clash b/w india-china, but increasing troops in broder [pak] like we are doing along indo-china border.
Currently Russia can't supply ammunitations due to war, Israel reserve limited, current US gov not so supportive. Yes we can manufacture them, still we depend on foreign pgm.
crazy suicidal leader like Hitler - not suicidal, but crazy power hungry leaders, like Pak generals
Here I'm considering current goal of US gov & present objective, not long term interest. If US only considering Pak support against Russia, its normal & not a issue, but blind support to pakistan is a cause of worry. Since China & India need a stable Asia-Africa for their economy growth, both try to avoid, or to reduce a war in these regions.
 

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but increasing troops in broder [pak] like we are doing along indo-china border.

Currently Russia can't supply ammunitations due to war, Israel reserve limited, current US gov not so supportive. Yes we can manufacture them, still we depend on foreign pgm.
You are again putting completing "what if" scenario with zero consideration of "why so".

That doesn't help to contradict my point that Pak still brutally lags behind in every other aspect of war too which is far beyond PGM either.

Given that India produces both indigenous guided bombs and battlefield weapons, has a large stockpile of ammo, steel production enough to multiply it, satellite tracking and reconnaissance and higher mechanised infantry, a ditch by USA cannot strangulate India against Pakistan at all without a direct military intervention or patrolling in 2022 era. And since the relative gap between India and Pakistan has only increased in last 40-45 years, Pakistan is not a military threat.

It's a militant state with nuclear weapons.
crazy suicidal leader like Hitler - not suicidal, but crazy power hungry leaders, like Pak generals
They are not crazy and stupid like Hitler at all or it would have been a war 2-3 years earlier. They know very well where Pak stands regardless of mard-e-mommins littering on social media. And higher the power gap goes, softer the languages of Pakistani generals become.

There is no immediate war threat on India by any objective means or reasoning.
Here I'm considering current goal of US gov & present objective, not long term interest.
Both current and long term interests of US or any country don't deviate at all (except short term MFN, ceasefire, FTA etc. which are not a case here.)

It was US interest to support Pakistan and gain influence on a country which has Iran in West, India & China in East and Russia in near North plus a country to balance India's power near east region and barring India from central Asia.
It was their interest, it is in their interest, it will remain in their interest.
If US only considering Pak support against Russia, its normal & not a issue, but blind support to pakistan is a cause of worry.
US support for Pak is not blind. Nor they are stupid enough to ignore their key allies despite their relationships with Russia, be it France, Saudi and even they are lenient on India.
Since China & India need a stable Asia-Africa for their economy growth, both try to avoid, or to reduce a war in these regions.
Africa is not essential for growth of any big country for 3 decades at least, Asia is.
Either of China and India are only dumping spare money in Africa. If you look into statistics, you will find that economy and future of USA, Europe, China, India, Japan and Southeast Asia are dependent on each other and Africa is not even a chapter.

Africa has a huge population but barely has a consumption. They are only being propped as potential markets and they will take decades to create a proper consumer class which Asia had in 1990s.
 

johnj

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You are again putting completing "what if" scenario with zero consideration of "why so".
''What if'' based on Kargil war. my "why so" consideration based on Army control over pakistan - these are my points of view, and may be I'm wrong.
That doesn't help to contradict my point that Pak still brutally lags behind in every other aspect of war too which is far beyond PGM either.
I don't think so. Pak brought 1000 pgms from USA, produces their own pgms[less capable] and buying from China. How much they used on counter terrorism unknown. Pak having more smart pgm than us from US, China and their own. Meanwhile our AF waiting for for foreign ones and brought 1000 pgm excluding hammer.
Given that India produces both indigenous guided bombs and battlefield weapons, has a large stockpile of ammo, steel production enough to multiply it, satellite tracking and reconnaissance and higher mechanised infantry, a ditch by USA cannot strangulate India against Pakistan at all without a direct military intervention or patrolling in 2022 era. And since the relative gap between India and Pakistan has only increased in last 40-45 years, Pakistan is not a military threat.
It's a militant state with nuclear weapons.
It's a militant state with nuclear weapons. - right.
Rest- wastage of ammunition due to improper storage, IAF crying due to falling sqn strength, army saying PA mbt having day/night capability and our most of tank lacks it, artillery also not enough. All these issue due to snail decision making, on the other hand pak make decisions super fast.
They are not crazy and stupid like Hitler at all or it would have been a war 2-3 years earlier. They know very well where Pak stands regardless of mard-e-mommins littering on social media. And higher the power gap goes, softer the languages of Pakistani generals become.
There is no immediate war threat on India by any objective means or reasoning.
Consider like this- if pak like Hitler, they already nuked us, but they are not, they send highly trained & equipped terrorists'
Both current and long term interests of US or any country don't deviate at all (except short term MFN, ceasefire, FTA etc. which are not a case here.)
It was US interest to support Pakistan and gain influence on a country which has Iran in West, India & China in East and Russia in near North plus a country to balance India's power near east region and barring India from central Asia.
It was their interest, it is in their interest, it will remain in their interest.
US support for Pak is not blind. Nor they are stupid enough to ignore their key allies despite their relationships with Russia, be it France, Saudi and even they are lenient on India.
Totally right, but India not an allay of US. hey are lenient on India - yes, that why they giving more important to kashmir & muslims, minorities now.
Africa is not essential for growth of any big country for 3 decades at least, Asia is.
Either of China and India are only dumping spare money in Africa. If you look into statistics, you will find that economy and future of USA, Europe, China, India, Japan and Southeast Asia are dependent on each other and Africa is not even a chapter.

Africa has a huge population but barely has a consumption. They are only being propped as potential markets and they will take decades to create a proper consumer class which Asia had in 1990s.
So according to you India a small country ?
Not future, but present. In future Africa provide natural resources to match US/Chinese economy. India & China not dumping, but spending money in Africa to build their own[ind/china] future.
You only considering consumer class, and forget about producer class who produce goods for consumer class & money class. China become world 2nd economy thanks to producer class, not consumer class.
Do you really thing money class really care about huge population/people ??
 

jai jaganath

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''What if'' based on Kargil war. my "why so" consideration based on Army control over pakistan - these are my points of view, and may be I'm wrong.

I don't think so. Pak brought 1000 pgms from USA, produces their own pgms[less capable] and buying from China. How much they used on counter terrorism unknown. Pak having more smart pgm than us from US, China and their own. Meanwhile our AF waiting for for foreign ones and brought 1000 pgm excluding hammer.

It's a militant state with nuclear weapons. - right.
Rest- wastage of ammunition due to improper storage, IAF crying due to falling sqn strength, army saying PA mbt having day/night capability and our most of tank lacks it, artillery also not enough. All these issue due to snail decision making, on the other hand pak make decisions super fast.

Consider like this- if pak like Hitler, they already nuked us, but they are not, they send highly trained & equipped terrorists'

Totally right, but India not an allay of US. hey are lenient on India - yes, that why they giving more important to kashmir & muslims, minorities now.

So according to you India a small country ?
Not future, but present. In future Africa provide natural resources to match US/Chinese economy. India & China not dumping, but spending money in Africa to build their own[ind/china] future.
You only considering consumer class, and forget about producer class who produce goods for consumer class & money class. China become world 2nd economy thanks to producer class, not consumer class.
Do you really thing money class really care about huge population/people ??
What happened to Gaurav and another variant (forgot the name)
 

johnj

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What happened to Gaurav and another variant (forgot the name)
According to DRDO, complected development, same goes to saaw , lgb , etc, but IAF love foreign mall
I hope IAF brought lgb in large nos. Pak having alcm, pgm, standoff pgm & attack drones & ahead of us.
We focused on large items like ships, jet fighter, helio, mbt etc etc and very far ahead of pak.
No more comments in this topic, only iac2.
 

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''What if'' based on Kargil war. my "why so" consideration based on Army control over pakistan - these are my points of view, and may be I'm wrong.
That is not a why so since army's control over Pakistan ensures it doesn't pull off any stunt like that again given its condition and power differential.

And unlike Kargil where India had international pressure of not crossing LoC, doesn't exist anymore. War will immediately escalate to level of strategic weapons and bring down any possibilities of an attrition war making Pakistan's tactical warfare capabilities insignificant.
I don't think so. Pak brought 1000 pgms from USA, produces their own pgms[less capable] and buying from China. How much they used on counter terrorism unknown. Pak having more smart pgm than us from US, China and their own. Meanwhile our AF waiting for for foreign ones and brought 1000 pgm excluding hammer.
Air power, air defenses, artilleries, mechanised infantry, amphibious warfare vehicles, anti armour warfare capabilities neutralise that advantage greatly. The production ability is what you are leaving unaccounted along with zero thesis of statistical comparison.

Anyway the PGM part isn't going to flip war in Pakistan's favour either. It certainly ensures more frequent artillery and drone strikes from India. All of priorities of Indian military would have changed had Pakistan being primary target.
It's a militant state with nuclear weapons. - right.
Rest- wastage of ammunition due to improper storage,
That's again a straw man argument unless you provide a data that this much ammunition goes waste that India will run out ammo in war even along with production in local factories.
IAF crying due to falling sqn strength, army saying PA mbt having day/night capability and our most of tank lacks it, artillery also not enough. All these issue due to snail decision making, on the other hand pak make decisions super fast.
IAF, Army or artillery, all still outnumber Pak by a great margin. China has a far stronger artillery though.

All the snail's pace decision are on country's procedure as well as effort to indigenise which will pay in future when India is denied foreign weapons.
Developing homegrown industry when possibilities of war are little is best thing to do.

Government of India will be biggest @$$e$ if they focus on panic buying than trying for homegrown even if it causes handicapped capabilities for some time.
Consider like this- if pak like Hitler, they already nuked us, but they are not, they send highly trained & equipped terrorists'
Either way, it doesn't back your argument about military.
Terrorists are dealt with special forces or border surveillance, only sometimes with military through surgical strikes.
Totally right, but India not an allay of US. hey are lenient on India - yes, that why they giving more important to kashmir & muslims, minorities now.
This again is a display of inability to think again.

They are still lenient on Indo Russian relations hoping for Indian cooperation against China and they off course tame India also for not being in their camp.
There are no black and whites in politics but gret shades. There are middle paths and dual thing in every relationship just as China is largest trade partner of US as well as enemy.

We can comfortably ignore your point here.
So according to you India a small country ?
No, I said Africa is insignificant for big countries. Don't get what are the issues with your comprehension.
Africa is not essential for growth of any big country for 3 decades at least, Asia is.
Either of China and India are only dumping spare money in Africa. If you look into statistics, you will find that economy and future of USA, Europe, China, India, Japan and Southeast Asia are dependent on each other and Africa is not even a chapter.
Not future, but present. In future Africa provide natural resources to match US/Chinese economy.
Africa already provides/Europe takes resources from Africa at cheap leaving them poor.
India & China not dumping, but spending money in Africa to build their own[ind/china] future.
Since current investments are not big and Africa's low income countries are showing no signs of income growth (in some cases, entire GDP growth comes from increased population), we can say China and India are only dumping small amounts of money and gambling there.

China, India, Japan, Korea and other Asian powers have been trying to industrialising themselves like Europe from day 1 of their independence. The case is opposite with Africa since larger population was tribal.
Asia didn't grow just because of population but since it also was a cluster of advanced civilisation like Euroepan empires and had strong social systems.

Africa doesn't.
You only considering consumer class, and forget about producer class who produce goods for consumer class & money class. China become world 2nd economy thanks to producer class, not consumer class.
You said Africa will drive China and India's growth and I said they don't consume.

And LOL what, China isn't dependenton consumption? 40% of Chinese GDP comes from consumption by common population alone, most of their growth came from increased local consumption and so was India. What China produces is consumed in West, Japan and India and hence, US, EU, China, India and Japan are dependent on each other mostly and not Africa.

Creating what you call a "producer class" requires beginning of household consumption and a skilled population to produce it before foreign consumption. If consumption increases, living standards and skills will improve and foreign companies will open factory in your country to address consumption and later export from your country.

Africa as a whole is far from first stage.

You may not have any iota knowledge of the economics, kindly just don't make up nonsense arguments out of your mind.
Do you really thing money class really care about huge population/people ??
Only huge population which consumes can support rise of rich people and a large rich population supports rise of super rich , small population doesn't LOL.
 

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Defence Minister Rajnath Singh makes imp point a function in New Delhi: "Work on second Aircraft carrier has started". INS Vikrant was 1st & commissioned in Sept 2022.
I don't know how many do remember, but I made a point just after IAC-1 induction that go ahead for IAC-2 with similar or slight improvement would come within 5 years time.
 

NutCracker

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Way too optimistic timeline for something that hasn't even been sanctioned yet
That means after 5 years the order will be placed and after6-7 years csl will deliver it
I mean it's still 11-12 years away

Designing and test validation cause the major delay in any project.
Repeat order can stick to Timeline since major variables aren't unknown anymore.
You can assume 6-7 years ,if it will be upscaled version of existing IAC-1.
 

jai jaganath

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Designing and test validation cause the major delay in any project.
Repeat order can stick to Timeline since major variables aren't unknown anymore.
You can assume 6-7 years ,if it will be upscaled version of existing IAC-1.
I am saying even if the same ship ordered it will take 11-12 years for all procedure to follow and even this is optimistic
 

flanker99

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Designing and test validation cause the major delay in any project.
Repeat order can stick to Timeline since major variables aren't unknown anymore.
You can assume 6-7 years ,if it will be upscaled version of existing IAC-1.
It will take more than 3 years(optimistic) just to sanction the project then....there's no way we are getting anything by 2030
 

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