INS Vishal (IAC- II) Aircraft Carrier - Flattop or Ski Jump

[SajeevJino]

Nope, French future carrier. They have been showing this particular model for years.

I think too .

Those Rafale's and nEUROn UCAV is the examples

just only misunderstanding is the RXX number, while we numbers R 11, R 22. R 33 ...., otherwise maybe a French proposal of IAC 2

 

[blueblood]

I think too .

Those Rafale's and nEUROn UCAV is the examples

just only misunderstanding is the RXX number, while we numbers R 11, R 22. R 33 ...., otherwise maybe a French proposal of IAC 2

It's a DCNS design that they are peddling to India, Brazil and other nations who are interested in carrier operations.

 

[Illusive]

If IAC2 is a flat top, which aircraft will be flying from it, can Tejas be CATOBAR configured? naval AMCA?

 

[SajeevJino]

If IAC2 is a flat top, which aircraft will be flying from it, can Tejas be CATOBAR configured? naval AMCA?

so far F 18 and the Rafale M is best and available Fighters who can be used with Catapult or Electromagnetic Launch

 

[Illusive]

so far F 18 and the Rafale M is best and available Fighters who can be used with Catapult or Electromagnetic Launch

I hope we dont go for American birds even if we cooperate with them in Aircraft Carrier tech, Rafale M is sensible if we opt for Rafale in MMRCA, but i feel after PAK FA India shouldn't buy foreign aircrafts.

 

[grampiguy]

I hope we dont go for American birds even if we cooperate with them in Aircraft Carrier tech, Rafale M is sensible if we opt for Rafale in MMRCA, but i feel after PAK FA India shouldn't buy foreign aircrafts.

Its possible to develop a Naval version of Sukhoi T 50/PAKFA, which I hope Indian govt will pursue in future. However, deployment of Su-50 PAKFA on INS Vishal of 85K ton carrier will make Chinese PLA Navy change their pants frequently ;-). It might even alarm Americans because then there would be no equivalent to this aircraft on any aircraft carrier in the world. Kind of Brahmos type uniqueness. American forums have been discussing this eventuality, quite frequently.

 

[SajeevJino]

I hope we dont go for American birds even if we cooperate with them in Aircraft Carrier tech, Rafale M is sensible if we opt for Rafale in MMRCA, but i feel after PAK FA India shouldn't buy foreign aircrafts.

I think Navy eager to see the F 35 B

 

[SajeevJino]

Its possible to develop a Naval version of Sukhoi T 50/PAKFA, which I hope Indian govt will pursue in future. However, deployment of Su-50 PAKFA on INS Vishal of 85K ton carrier will make Chinese PLA Navy change their pants frequently ;-). It might even alarm Americans because then there would be no equivalent to this aircraft on any aircraft carrier in the world. Kind of Brahmos type uniqueness. American forums have been discussing this eventuality, quite frequently.

Russians are so stick with Ski Jumps, they too presented a Rubber model of their future carrier with Naval PAK FA, But question is can the PAK FA will do the ski Jump in such a short distance,

Those Mig 29, F 35 B and Tejas is a good options for STOBAR. but not in the CATOBAR

 

[Illusive]

Its possible to develop a Naval version of Sukhoi T 50/PAKFA, which I hope Indian govt will pursue in future. However, deployment of Su-50 PAKFA on INS Vishal of 85K ton carrier will make Chinese PLA Navy change their pants frequently ;-). It might even alarm Americans because then there would be no equivalent to this aircraft on any aircraft carrier in the world. Kind of Brahmos type uniqueness. American forums have been discussing this eventuality, quite frequently.

Americans have F35c plus dont forget the X47 B, then they are moving to 6th gen. Chinese will have their version of su33 which i am not sure it'd be CATOBAR operations plus their j31 for long term. India on the other hand should look towards naval FGFA, but it'd depend upon how FGFA goes plus the timeline. I think India should design AMCA keeping Navy in mind or should altogether give pvt sector a chance to collaborate with a foreign entity to develop a carrier based aircraft.

@SajeevJino Yeah but american aircrafts come with restrictions and strings.

 

[SajeevJino]

@SajeevJino Yeah but american aircrafts come with restrictions and strings.

there is no restriction from America if you engage a Communist

 

[Illusive]

there is no restriction from America if you engage a Communist

Only Communist? what about the Terrorist. We would have selected F18 if we wanted an American jet.

 

[Kranthi]

If we go for EMALS, its better to go with 4 launchers on an 85,000+ ton carrier.

US may create spare issues at wartime if it is against that war. So 4 catapults are required to be on safer side so that we can manage even if one or two go out of service..

 

[cobra commando]

Govt gives nod to new aircraft carrier, BrahMos missiles for six ships

 

[Anshu Attri]

India's Biggest Warship, INS Vishal, Likely to Be Nuclear-Powered

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indi...clear-powered-782549?pfrom=home-lateststories

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/na...econd-indigenous-aircraft-carrier/107910.html

NEW DELHI: India's biggest ever warship, the INS Vishal, is likely to be propelled by nuclear energy.

The second of India's home-made aircraft carriers will be a whopper at 65,000 tonnes with enough room to accommodate 50 aircraft.

The Ministry of Defence has written to nine Indian shipyards, including some that are privately owned, in search of a partnership for the project.
The INS Vikramaditya, an old Russian carrier which weighs 45,000 tonnes, joined the Navy in 2013 and carries 34 aircraft on board. While the type of fighter jets which will be based on the new carrier is yet to be decided, senior officials indicated that the size of the warship indicates its fighters would be twin-engine.

"The cost of INS Vishal will depend on the kind of propulsion; nuclear propulsion will cost more than conventional means - diesel or gas," a senior naval officer told NDTV. A nuclear aircraft carrier costs upto three times more than a conventional one.
After years of neglect, India's navy is in the midst of accelerated modernisation under Prime Minister Narendra Modi. The government has fast-tracked processes to ensure the domestically-built INS Vikrant will be ready for service in 2018.

The INS Vishal could be built with US technology - the proposal was discussed during President Obama's visit to Delhi in January.

India is eyeing the Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System (EMALS) developed in the US, which means jets can launch off a flat deck at a faster rate and with less fatigue to aircraft.

India's existing carrier force uses ski-jump ramps to help planes take off and uses wires to slow them down when landing. For that reason, planes have to be lighter and fewer in number (the upper limit is 34 currently).

With an EMALS system on a flat deck, the INS Vishal could field 50 heavier fighter jets with longer range as well as airborne early warning aircraft.

 

[SajeevJino]

India specifies 65,000-tonne aircraft carrier, with catapult

For the first time, the size and specifications of the Indian Navy's future aircraft carrier have been officially acknowledged. The navy has written to at least four major global shipbuilders, asking for proposals to help in designing a 65,000 tonne carrier that would be about 300 metres long.

The letter of request, issued by the Indian Navy on Wednesday, specifies the carrier should be capable of speeds greater than 30 knots (56 km per hour). However, it is silent on whether it prefers nuclear propulsion, or conventional diesel or gas turbines.

The navy's letter states the carrier will embark 30-35 fixed wing combat aircraft, and about 20 rotary wing aircraft (helicopters). It would have a catapult to launch fixed wing aircraft, which would make the carrier a "catapult launched but arrested landing", or CATOBAR vessel. For India's naval aviators, this would involve a major change from a long tradition of getting airborne from a "ski-jump" at the end of the flight deck.

While not mandating an "electromagnetic aircraft launch system" (EMALS), the navy has specifically mentioned it as an option. The United States Navy's latest carrier, the 100,000-tonne USS Gerald R Ford, which will be commissioned next year, is the world's only current carrier featuring EMALS. This uses an electromagnetic rail gun to accelerate aircraft to take-off velocity, instead of the conventional steam-driven catapults that have been used for 60 years.

The navy's letter has gone out to US company, Lockheed Martin; UK company, BAE Systems, French shipbuilder, DCNS, and Rosoboronexport, the Russian export umbrella agency.

The letter pertains to the vessel that is commonly referred to as the "indigenous aircraft carrier number 2", or IAC-2. Currently, Cochin Shipyard Ltd (CSL) is building IAC-1, a 40,000-tonne carrier named INS Vikrant, which is scheduled to be commissioned in 2018.

INS Viraat will supplement INS Vikramaditya, the 45,000-tonne carrier bought from Russia, which was formerly named the Gorshkov. Another, older carrier, INS Viraat, is expected to be retired by the end of this decade.

For years, the biggest guessing game around the Indian Navy's future force has been: Will IAC-2 be a massive, EMALS-equipped, nuclear-powered super carrier, developed in partnership with America? So far, admirals have been close-mouthed, saying the process of formulating specifications is underway.

Now, the guessing game is already shifting to: Which shipbuilder does the navy's specification favour? The US remains the leading horse, not just because it is the world's most experienced and technologically advanced carrier operator with more aircraft carriers in service than the rest of the world combined.

There is also a US-India "working group", constituted during President Barack Obama's visit to India in January, specifically to promote cooperation in aircraft carrier technology. New Delhi and Washington are known to have discussed EMALS under the rubric of the Defence Trade and Technology Initiative (DTTI).

Yet, there could be others in the race. Vendors point out that the specifications framed bear similarities to the French aircraft carrier, Charles de Gaulle (in terms of speed and size, though not in displacement), and the British Queen Elizabeth II (in terms of displacement and size, though not in speed).

Surprisingly, the navy's letter allows the foreign vendors just one week to respond, demanding a reply by July 22. The reply is required to contain costing elements along with the proposal.

"This involves evaluating a consultative, hand-holding process that will last at least a decade. There is no way anyone can produce a detailed cost proposal in such a short time," complains a senior executive with one of the foreign vendors.

Experts have begun evaluating the implications of the navy's specifications. It is pointed out that asking for 25-30 fighters and 20 helicopters on a 65,000 tonne, 300-metre-long carrier would limit the size of the aircraft on the ship. If heavy fighters are to be a part of the ship's complement, it would need to be bigger; if the MiG-29K is retained, it would need a foldable nose to occupy less hangar space.

It is also pointed out that specifying a speed in excess of 30 knots eliminates certain forms of propulsion, notably an all-electric drive, which is environment friendly and economical.

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...aft-carrier-with-catapult-115071700032_1.html

 

[Shadow]

Why have they sent the letter to the Rosoboronexport???Afterall India is not going for STOBAR.

 

[Abhijeet Dey]

If they are going for a nuclear powered aircraft carrier (including EMALS) with 50 heavy twin engine fighters (as mentioned in the above article) then is it going to be a 65000 ton or a 90000 ton ship? Will they also have AWACS aircrafts in their aircraft carrier like US Navy?

 

[Yumdoot]

The above report says nothing about twin engined or single engined:

The navy's letter states the carrier will embark 30-35 fixed wing combat aircraft, and about 20 rotary wing aircraft (helicopters). It would have a catapult to launch fixed wing aircraft
http://www.business-standard.com/ar...aft-carrier-with-catapult-115071700032_1.html

In fact the report suggests that "Experts have begun evaluating" what kind of 30-35 fixed wing aircrafts can be maintained successfully and efficiently on a 65000 tonne AC alongwith 20 helicopters.

INS Vikrant at 40000 tonnes is expected to have 30 fixed wing mix of Mig29K and NLCA alongwith 10 helos.

INS Vikramaditya at 40000 tonnes too has space for 40 twin engined + 6 helos. Lesser helos but more twin engined.

IOW, in real life conditions, you can expect 4 helos to take the space of 10 fixed wings....

Even at a very tight 1000 tonnes displacement for every aircraft, we would still remain at a mix of 2-engines and 1-engine fighters. And if this IAC is not going to be Nuclear powered then it could become even tighter to for twin-engined fighters.

The single engined space belongs to NLCA Mk-2. The twin engined or a heavier single engined is the only vacancy up for grabs. So who would want to supply say 20 twin engined aircrafts or their replacement heavier single engined aircraft.

The letter of request, issued by the Indian Navy on Wednesday, specifies the carrier should be capable of speeds greater than 30 knots (56 km per hour). However, it is silent on whether it prefers nuclear propulsion, or conventional diesel or gas turbines.
http://www.business-standard.com/ar...aft-carrier-with-catapult-115071700032_1.html

The IN letter is even silent on the propulsion part. Perhaps they want to assess the cost and complexities against their actual needs.

 

[Yumdoot]

Seen often enough the ‘Wow EMALS’ reaction. Never could understand this. Kind of like fixating on the porn starlets boobs ignoring the real role a male has to play and the need for the fat misshapen mother of the male’s kids at home.

EMALS is effectively useless kind of tech. You can read about it directly from US sources and verify.

The story seems quite funny and should be read from the POV of how foreigners try to 'influence' India. Many times you will find foreign sources waxing eloquently about how India is 'very', 'deeply', 'strategically' interested in a piece of tech and how that particular piece is a must have to 'help India become a super power'.


Look at it like this:

1.
Given - What is the net change in performance that EMALS will give - claims range between 0% to 20% with some even claiming 30% increase in sortie rates.

Question - How does that affect the life of Indian Navy?



2.
Given - What is the failure rate of EMALS - figures range from 10% in 2013 to as low as 1 in 240 failures in very good conditions. These average rates come after approximately 3000 dead load launches.

Question - Would Indian Navy be ok with this kind of failure rate for a technology it does not understand? Does the USN lose 1 aircraft every 240 launches.



3.
Given - What is the reliability like for EMALS - well a complex question. Everybody says it is very much better than the older system. But then in the old system the heat was basically waste heat from the reactors of which you had something like 2/4/8 reactors in a USN CVN. Basically many pipes and hydraulics took the spare unusable energy from 2/4/8 places to say 4 catapults. As you notice this is a very distributed engineering. With a lot of inbuilt redundancy. For EMALS you have to provide prime electricity to operate them (hence 3 times extra electrical loads) and since electricity cannot be switched on and off on these reactors, to cater to different operating requirements at the deck above, so you must provide for an energy storage system. Now since the stored electrical power also has to be put out to the EMALS-Linear induction motors (LAM), so you need also an electricity conversion systems for right sort of power output. Beginning to sound like – too complex, wasteful and turf wars. Well I can’t blame you.

Question – What is the reliability like for the individual systems that are way more complex than just a bunch of pipes and hydraulics, that ultimately get replaced by this extensive electrical engineering?

Question – Would Indian Navy be ok if the small band of sister engineering disciplines – Mechanical engineers and Marine engineers who understood each other by professional discipline, now have to look at the electrical engineer as their Malik?



4.
Given - that you employ EMALS with their mythical reliability rates and mythical sortie rates. What do you propose to do to recover the fully laden aircrafts that that will most times be coming back. – The Americans decide to impress themselves further and invented the Advanced Arresting Gear. Which BTW requires more electricity and electrical motors. Unfortunately the reliability rates for AAG are even more abysmal. Like 1 in 20 failures.

Question – How does the Indian Navy feel like about this reliability rates given all the aircrafts that are going to get launched in a short space of time will come back from a singular mission at about the same time? Happy with the difference in reliability rates?



5.
Given – that you have such an electrical engineering marvel how would the Nuclear Reactor scale up to cater to these new LAM requirements – well they claim that the 2 new A1B(s) installed on Gerald R. Ford, will produce 25% more ‘energy’ (whatever that means) than the 2 legacy A4W(S) on Nimitz Class.

Question - Where does the extra waste heat go from this so called 25% extra energy? Remember every bit of earlier waste heat was useful. But now this waste heat is, well, waste.

Question – Are the reactors R&D-ed for ATV Arihant, going to be useful for the Aircraft carriers that Indian Navy needs?



6.
Given - What is the cost of EMALS - I have seen a figure of 750 million USD for 4 EMALS catapult on Gerald R Ford.

Question - How much is the capital budget of Indian Navy in next 10 years? Will surprise you.


7.
Given - Now that we can launch so many more aircrafts how many do actually get launched – Let me put it like this : Only 3 out of the 11 USN CVN ever remain deployed to fight the good global fight that America must fight to uphold democracy. The rest 8, just remain berthed in harbors. America’s own waste – not unlike The Great Wall of China or the Vacant Cities constructed by CCP.

Question – Is this how the Indian Navy sees itself? A waste generator. Is this how the Indian Navy would like to serve the nation. Manufacturing harbor queens. Supporting for the rest of their lives the R&D expenditure of Americans?




You see its not just about the EMALS. The whole ship is ‘optimized’ for a certain task. And the optimized vessel costs 13 billion USD. So be careful what you ask for. You may actually get it – unoptimized tech level…... Buying merely EMALS is a useless proposal. Is it any wonder that CATOBARS were last seen on conventional propulsion at around 28000 ton and beyond 40000 ton people looking for CATOBARs ultimately just need a Nuke plant and to get sport an EMALS+AAG you just need some insane kind of reactor with 100000 ton displacement to merely begin to make sense. There is some scalability issue involved here.


Something makes me confident that the Indian Navy would rather push finances into new subs and scaling/refining the 80+ MWT reactor it is supposed to carry. that can both protect & kill aircraft carriers. And refining and scaling up the reactor of ATV can actually help build up a true AC without frills. instead of wasting money embracing the folly of the Americans. Unless off course the strategic level decision in PMO is enabled by a sweetening of the deal by the Americans, which is kind of difficult to believe, would happen but is possible. Say for example Americans offering the design collaboration to achieve something like an A4W at least.

 

[Bheeshma]

I wish they just order another 40-45k tonne Vikrant and focus on the nuke subs. We need at-least 6 operational by end of the decade.