INS Vishal (IAC- II) Aircraft Carrier - Flattop or Ski Jump

[SilentKiller]

get ready for another delay ! However, I always doubt such reports. Any other tried and tested source?

It was always there.
As far as INS Vishal is concerned, its still on design phase so no need to worry.
Reason: weight will be over 65k Tons so its a lot bigger than the current aircraft carriers, 2nd is that india was interested in magnetic propulsion version of catapult and they even got a presentation on that.
It might be or not a nuclear power as it will depend on how much we have advanced with compact reactors and how arihant program goes. If am correct, a nuclear carrier has atleast 2 reactors
Main reasons for nuclear propulsion are Range, more space for Planes (Hanger space).

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

It was always there.
As far as INS Vishal is concerned, its still on design phase so no need to worry.
Reason: weight will be over 65k Tons so its a lot bigger than the current aircraft carriers, 2nd is that india was interested in magnetic propulsion version of catapult and they even got a presentation on that.
It might be or not a nuclear power as it will depend on how much we have advanced with compact reactors and how arihant program goes. If am correct, a nuclear carrier has atleast 2 reactors
Main reasons for nuclear propulsion are Range, more space for Planes (Hanger space).

65K is comparable to Elizabeth- class which is conventional carrier.
I personally think that as of now, we dont need CATOBAR, as its way too expensive to maintain, STOBAR is much cheaper.
As far as Nuclear Propulsion is considered, I think Navy should go a little slow on that front. 3rd IAC should be a separate class, which should have CATOBAR and Nuclear Propulsion both.
Nuclear propulsion on IAC2 will delay the project, and frankly I dont really think India needs a Nuclear Carrier in near future.

 

[laughingbuddha]

CATOBAR to use bigger class of aircraft with large payload in future. Including AEW&C which is not possible now.

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

INS Vishal might be nuclear-powered aircraft carrier : Naval Design Bureau

The Navy said it was working on the design of the second indigenous aircraft carrier which may be propelled by a nuclear-powered engine.

The Navy said it was working on the design of the second indigenous aircraft carrier which may be propelled by a nuclear-powered engine.

The design is at a conceptual stage, director general of Naval Design Bureau Rear Admiral Atul Saxena said when asked if the force was considering using nuclear-powered engine for it.The Navy is already constructing the 40,000 tonne first indigenous aircraft carrier at the Cochin Shipyard Limited and has plans of building one more such vessel which is expected to be more than 60,000 tonnes in weight.

He said the force will take some time before freezing the design of the aircraft carrier as several options are being considered for various aspects such as aircraft take-off and landing facilities.

India has plans of having a fleet of three aircraft carriers. One each would be deployed on the eastern and western sea-boards and the third would be used as a reserve.

Talking to reporters ahead of the golden jubilee celebrations of the Naval Design Bureau, Saxena said, the Navy has developed immense capabilities in terms of ship designing and is focusing on cutting down the ship building time as part of its focus area.

He said in the times of changing face of warfare, the Navy design team is also looking at designing multi-role warships which can be used for diversified operations such as conventional warfare, disaster relief or anti-piracy operations.

Saxena said the force has increased the stealth feature on the ships designed by it and built indigenously by government shipyards in the last few years.

INS Vishal might be nuclear-powered aircraft carrier : Naval Design Bureau | idrw.org

 

[rohit b3]

Uhh, I think some reports had suggested that they were gonna freeze the design earlier this year, in February.

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

Uhh, I think some reports had suggested that they were gonna freeze the design earlier this year, in February.

yep but same news last yer as well

Eye on future, India mulls options for nuclear-powered aircraft carrier - The Times of India

General Atomics briefs navy on magnetic catapult that launches unmanned fighters
Navy eyes high-tech options for future aircraft carriers | Business Standard News

i think they will go for nuclear but we have to wait and see until they start the construction too many conflicting reports

 

[Illusive]

Flexibility of INS Vishal going nuclear

Indian Navy has finally has confirmed that design of the second indigenous aircraft carrier is in final stage and Director General of Naval Design Bureau Rear Admiral Atul Saxena only confirmed that navy is considering using nuclear-powered engine for it.

INS Vishal aka IAC-II will be over 65,000 tonnes in weight and will have CATOBAR Configuration system to launch heavier aircraft like larger fighters, AEW (airborne early-warning) aircraft and mid-air refueling tankers. General Atomics briefed Indian Navy on Electro-Magnetic Aircraft Launch System (EMALS). EMALS is new-generation catapult that the Indian Navy is evaluating which uses a powerful electro-magnetic field instead of steam.

first EMALS-equipped carrier, the USS Gerald R Ford, will enter service by 2016. While Indian Navy is still debating merits of Nuclear Powered carrier over Conventional Carrier, Going Nuclear with INS Vishal will not only throw out complex challenges to Indian shipbuilders but also cost India much more ,

According to estimate put out by Indian navy for Conventional Aircraft carrier of 65,000 tonnes in weight will cost close to 2.5 billion dollars but going Nuclear will add more to R&D in developing new reactors for the carrier . India has successfully developed a 83 MW Nuclear power plant for Indigenous developed Nuclear Submarines but an aircraft carrier over 65,000 tonnes in weight will require 4 times more power and development of bigger Nuclear reactors . Larger Aircraft carrier provides abundant space for bigger Reactor but will require few more years to develop and mature which could have direct effect on schedule and launch of INS Vishal .

Nuclear Aircraft carrier will not only be most expensive weapons system in its arsenal but also requires lot of investment in maintaining them , Nuclear carriers requires higher labor hours to maintain reactor and other complex systems. it also requires investment in Shipyards to train manpower to handle nuclear carriers , While China plans to build 3 to 4 Nuclear Aircraft carrier,

which will justify such Investment but Indian Navy always wanted to maintain 3 Aircraft carriers and plans to build only one Nuclear powered Aircraft carrier will not justify the cost and will limit Shipyard repairs to one or two docks . Nuclear Aircraft carrier doesn't require nuclear refueling for 20 to 30 years but according countries who operate Nuclear aircraft carrier major overhaul and change of core of reactor and refueling is expensive and costs 58% more in life cycle cost of an conventional carrier after 2 or 3 decades in service. Even Inactive Nuclear Aircraft carrier cost money to decommission, and extensive work is necessary to remove spent nuclear fuel from the reactor plant and remove and dispose of the radio logically contaminated reactor plant and other system components. Some Experts argue that Instead of going Nuclear with INS Vishal , If India sticks to conventional carrier, we can actually be able to save enough money to work on smaller aircraft carrier in size of INS Vikrant class .

 

[p2prada]

Nuclear powered carrier is good. The reason is because apart from saving up on fuel storage and increasing hangar space, the propulsion systems will be indigenous. If we go for conventional propulsion, the engines will have to be imported, but with nuclear power, we have companies in India capable of building steam engines.

I wouldn't be surprised if Vishal will turn out to be our first truly indigenous ship.

 

[EXPERT]

INS VISHAL : first CATOBAR aircraft carrier

With the recent visit of US President Barack Obama, India got great deals in its bag. One of them is the sophisticated and critical technology needed for our aircraft carriers. The new-generation catapult, Electro-Magnetic Aircraft Launch System (EMALS) is featuring with our domestically built second aircraft carrier INS VISHAL or IAC II. We have got exactly what we needed, plus India may also buy V-22 Osprey aircrafts which are capable of Vertical Take Off and Landing (VTOL) and Short Take Off and Landing (STOL).


CATOBAR vs STOBAR :
In 1989 India announced a plan to replace its ageing British-built aircraft carriers, Vikrant and Viraat, with two new Aircraft Carriers. The first ship of the class, INS Vikrant also called as IAC I features a STOBAR (Short Take-Off But Arrested Recovery) configuration with a ski-jump. The "ski-jump" ramp in the carrier is to assist in the take off of conventional fixed-wing aircraft, and use "trap wires" to help an aircraft land. It is designed mainly for lighter aircrafts like Mikoyan Mig-29k and HAL Tejas Mark II. Generally, STOBAR carriers are easy to operate and easy to maintain, and have low operating cost.

As the ship is based on STOBAR, it has its own drawbacks. STOBAR aircraft carriers have to maintain speeds of 20-30 knots to generate wind over deck to support the mission. In other words, it can not support launch missions in still conditions. It is also difficult to operate bulky airborne early warning (AEW) aircraft using this system which can make the carrier very vulnerable during wartime. So the need is to find solutions for all these problems, and the answer is Catapult Assisted Take-Off, Barrier Assisted Recovery (CATOBAR).

CATOBAR uses "trap lines" to stop an aircraft while landing, and a catapult to help it launch. Initially there were reports that the Indian Navy is going with steam catapult for INS Vishal. A steam catapult uses more than 600 kg of steam to launch an aircraft. Plus there is a requirement of hydraulics and oils, water to break the catapult, and associated pumps, motors and control systems.

The result is a large, heavy, maintenance intensive system which requires more manpower. On the other hand, EMALS uses an approach analogous to an electromagnetic railgun results to accelerate the shuttle that holds the aircraft.

The United Stated navy is the most experienced player in CATOBAR carriers, but all their carriers feature steam catapult system. EMALS is featuring in their new Ford class carrier, Gerald R. Ford which costs around whooping $13 billion.

CATOBAR offers more options such as supporting operations of heavier fighters, AEW aircraft and, crucially, unmanned combat air vehicles (UCAVs), when compared with STOBAR systems. This will give Indian Navy an upper hand in the region by expanding their mission envelope with UCAVs, using the pilotless aircraft for high-risk reconnaissance and suppression of enemy air defences.


THE INS VISHAL :
INS Vishal is going to be expensive as compared to the other aircraft carriers we have. It is very hard to believe from the recent reports that it will be a conventional – powered aircraft carrier. INS Vishal is still 10 to 12 years away from reality, so India has enough time to go for a nuclear powered aircraft carrier. All US Navy's CATOBAR based Nimitz class aircraft carriers are nuclear powered. EMALS systems may need 60 MW of electricity at its peak and the 3 seconds in which one aircraft will be launched, that amount of energy could power 12000 homes.

A nuclear powered aircraft carrier is the most suitable option for the Indian navy, which will also give us outstanding power projection over a conventional aircraft carrier. We have gained some experience from INS Arihant in this field, though a submarine and an aircraft carrier are totally two different structures.

The designing of INS Vishal is also going to be a tough job for 'Directorate of Naval Design' (DND) of the Indian Navy.

Though DND has successfully designed INS Vikrant, but this is totally a new breed which needs sleek, precise and sophisticated design for faultless construction. It would be a boon for the DND if the United States could also assist India in designing of the aircraft carrier, INS Vishal. However there is nothing clear about the fighter aircraft, which will be deployed on INS Vishal.

INS Vishal will be the future of a new brand of aircraft carriers. It will dominate the Indian ocean and give India a giant leap over the Chinese. From here you can see the Indian Navy become a formidable true blue water navy capable of projecting deadly force across the Indian ocean and beyond.


Defence News - INS VISHAL : India's 1st Catobar Aircraft Carrier

 

[EXPERT]

Re: INS VISHAL : first CATOBAR aircraft carrier

As the article is saying, why aren't we going with Nuclear carrier. We have a lot of time and options. May be Russia or US could assist us with Nuclear reactor or the engineering.

 

[rohit b3]

Re: INS VISHAL : first CATOBAR aircraft carrier

If we go for a Nuclear Powered Carrier, that "10-12 years away" thing, will become a "15-20 years" reality. Best to stick to conventional for Vishal. EMALS itself, will delay it a bit, as it is a new technology.
If you ask me, they should have built 2 Aircraft carriers of 45,000 Tons STOBAR design of the Vikrant Class to be commissioned around 2018 and 2020 Resp. While designing another Class of 2-3 Carriers of 70,000 Tons CATOBAR Nuclear Powered, starting construction post 2020, all 3 to be commissioned between 2030-2035.
Everything is possible if enough money is invested in the right areas.
IN's initial plans were to have "half a dozen" Carriers by 2040.

 

[Srinivas_K]

Re: INS VISHAL : first CATOBAR aircraft carrier

If we go for a Nuclear Powered Carrier, that "10-12 years away" thing, will become a "15-20 years" reality. Best to stick to conventional for Vishal. EMALS itself, will delay it a bit, as it is a new technology.
If you ask me, they should have built 2 Aircraft carriers of 45,000 Tons STOBAR design of the Vikrant Class to be commissioned around 2018 and 2020 Resp. While designing another Class of 2-3 Carriers of 70,000 Tons CATOBAR Nuclear Powered, starting construction post 2020, all 3 to be commissioned between 2030-2035.
Everything is possible if enough money is invested in the right areas.
IN's initial plans were to have "half a dozen" Carriers by 2040.

I think construction of INS Vishal will be started soon.

 

[grampiguy]

Re: INS VISHAL : first CATOBAR aircraft carrier

If we go for a Nuclear Powered Carrier, that "10-12 years away" thing, will become a "15-20 years" reality. Best to stick to conventional for Vishal. EMALS itself, will delay it a bit, as it is a new technology.
If you ask me, they should have built 2 Aircraft carriers of 45,000 Tons STOBAR design of the Vikrant Class to be commissioned around 2018 and 2020 Resp. While designing another Class of 2-3 Carriers of 70,000 Tons CATOBAR Nuclear Powered, starting construction post 2020, all 3 to be commissioned between 2030-2035.
Everything is possible if enough money is invested in the right areas.
IN's initial plans were to have "half a dozen" Carriers by 2040.

There is additional factor into the play. IN is also going to have four of 40,000 ton LHDs in its amphibious assault capability improvement programme. RFP for these is already out and if one goes by the judicious decision taking record of IN, they would be looking at a multi-role ship which can even carry fixed wing aircraft in future, if necessary. These LHDs will be near equal to the size of INS Vikrant class carriers, which mean India will have six flat-tops in 40-50,000 ton capacity in near future.

Hence, as per IN objective to have CATOBAR carriers in 70,000 ton category, it would be prudent to begin with INS Vishal now and add on similar carriers in future, as and when Indian economy permits.

 

[rohit b3]

Re: INS VISHAL : first CATOBAR aircraft carrier

I think construction of INS Vishal will be started soon.

Not before 2017-18 till INS Vikrant is commissioned. And then expect more delays/challenges during construction as this is something new.

 

[rohit b3]

Re: INS VISHAL : first CATOBAR aircraft carrier

There is additional factor into the play. IN is also going to have four of 40,000 ton LHDs in its amphibious assault capability improvement programme. RFP for these is already out and if one goes by the judicious decision taking record of IN, they would be looking at a multi-role ship which can even carry fixed wing aircraft in future, if necessary. These LHDs will be near equal to the size of INS Vikrant class carriers, which mean India will have six flat-tops in 40-50,000 ton capacity in near future.

Hence, as per IN objective to have CATOBAR carriers in 70,000 ton category, it would be prudent to begin with INS Vishal now and add on similar carriers in future, as and when Indian economy permits.

Well said. Though we arent certain that the 4 LHDs will be capable of carrying Fixed wing Aircrafts. If they do, and they should, then it all works out fine!

 

[grampiguy]

Re: INS VISHAL : first CATOBAR aircraft carrier

Not before 2017-18 till INS Vikrant is commissioned. And then expect more delays/challenges during construction as this is something new.

Absolutely. IN cannot afford to initiate LHD and INS Vishal construction simultaneously. By 2018, IN will have two new aircraft carriers but no LHDs so addition of amphibious assault capability will be at its topmost agenda. INS Vishal metal cutting may begin by 2018, near the induction ceremony of INS Vikrant. However, it would be preferable if IN goes for a competition this time between shipyards to construct this carrier and not hand it over the platter to Cochin Shipyard. Private sector shipyards have also built good infrastructure to build large warships and a competition is always healthy for the quality and delivery schedule, with a clause that delayed delivery will give a chance for the runner up to build the next carrier in line.

Additionally, instead of 65,000 ton, if Indian Navy could increase the full weight of carrier to 85,000 ton then it would be a decent size carrier without any urgent need for improvement in future. It would be same as USS Kennedy/kitty hawk class and a good candidate for nuclear propulsion. It would not be as large as Nimitz/Ford class super-carriers and also not as small as Kuznetsov/Liaoning class to be of no serious use in sea control wars or out of the area long range power projection. Also, it will have enough aircraft on board to ensure sea control wherever it is present. Six INS Vishal class of 85,000 ton by 2050 will ensure that India is taken seriously in terms of its total control over the Indian Ocean.

 

[Hari Sud]

Re: INS VISHAL : first CATOBAR aircraft carrier

Do not put too much faith on DTTI in which the COTOBAR will be used. US has not parted with this technology to anyone. So hold your breath. Rejoice less and look for an alternative, if US does not give this technology. Otherwise it will be Raffale deal all over again and India will be left with no choices but delay beyond expectations.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: INS VISHAL : first CATOBAR aircraft carrier

We have our own reactors for powering this carrier, The reactors here will be a spin off product of Arihant project, Optimized for Carrier operation ..

As the article is saying, why aren't we going with Nuclear carrier. We have a lot of time and options. May be Russia or US could assist us with Nuclear reactor or the engineering.

 

[lookieloo]

Re: INS VISHAL : first CATOBAR aircraft carrier

Not before 2017-18 till INS Vikrant is commissioned. And then expect more delays/challenges during construction as this is something new.

Why not simply stick with Vikrant's design modified for EMALS? If successful, simply refit Vikrant/Vikramāditya with the same configuration during scheduled overhauls.

 

[Punya Pratap]

I wonder how many A/C's (Aircraft Carrier) IN is looking for ... I would have thought 4 would be more than enough by posting 1 A/C each on our 3 flanks and holding one as a reserve/on maintenance. Looking at the Ops and capability Vikramaditya / Vikrant can rotate on duty in the Bay of Bengal while Vishal and the follow up A/C being larger and with more potent Air arm can take care of the Arabian Ocean and IOR respectively.

My point is just make 4 A/C and then as a supplement develop INS Baaz in Andaman & Nicobar into a strong hold from which we can control the Straits of Mallaca. A/C are susceptible and can be sunk by submarines which is the strength of PLAN but you cannot sink INS Baaz..... just post a squadron each of Su MKI with Harpoons and one squadron of Tejas Mk 2 for CAP duties and 4 P8 Poseidons ... this way you can lord over the Straits of Mallaca as well as IOR. While you are at it develop INS Dweeprakash as well with a squadron each of MKI & Tejas MK2 to control the Arabian Ocean!!