INS Vikrant Aircraft Carrier (IAC)

[binayak95]

Debate is repeating points .
Let's make few things crystal clear.
1.vikramditya will serve till 2050.
2. Emals only work with nuclear power pushing the total costs up.
3. Catobar is much better than stobar since jets can fly with full load and hence 20 jets from catobar can do the job of 40 on stobar.
Which means you save on jets and on pilot's and training much more.
4. Catobar + conventional power could work.

EMALs work with IEP as well. Baaki sab theek hai

 

[Dark Sorrow]

EMALs work with IEP as well. Baaki sab theek hai

EMALs will work with IEP but the cost of operating such system on conventional gas turbine will be massive. It will also involve a lot of operational difficulties.
With nuclear power this operational difficulties and cost will be mitigated.

 

[binayak95]

EMALs will work with IEP but the cost of operating such system on conventional gas turbine will be massive. It will also involve a lot of operational difficulties.
With nuclear power this operational difficulties and cost will be mitigated.

Balance the expense of setting up a nuke reactor or two, and running that thing over the costs of high end GTs like the Rolls Royce M30 (MoU hint hint) and its a tough call.

That said, the IEP solution is more plausible because you want IEP for not just carriers, but for PSCs too in the future.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Balance the expense of setting up a nuke reactor or two, and running that thing over the costs of high end GTs like the Rolls Royce M30 (MoU hint hint) and its a tough call.

That said, the IEP solution is more plausible because you want IEP for not just carriers, but for PSCs too in the future.

Agreed.
Let see how PLAN fares with Fujian. Then we shall get a decent idea.

 

[abingdonboy]

Because steam cats need boilers. Fuel oil/diesel fired boilers that make life on board hell.

First of all, it's a bloody nightmare to maintain the things, second, it's incapable of rapid deployment. It takes half a day straight to get the boilers running from a cold start.


AND then we come to the detrimental effects of steam cats on aircraft. More wear, more stress than EMALS.

You combine IEP with say the RR M30, and not only do you get the benefits of EMALS but also pave the way for DEW.

IEP is the future. P18 and NGF will have them.

Everything has its pros and cons

IEP itself is facing a lot of issues in the real world (I’m sure you’re aware of the T45 debacle)

I’m not disputing the advertised benefits but we shouldn’t ignore the risks either. Can IN afford to pack so much troubled/experimental equipment (that their own developers are struggling to operationalise) into a carrier that will be their flagship and perhaps only One of 2 carriers they operate?

it’s a question that deserves serious thought especially when you consider most seem to think that EMALS would need nuclear propulsion to be optimised, that’s an entirely new set of complications. At this rate IAC-2 will be all singing and dancing but entering service in the 2050s

the IN needs carriers quickly too

 

[Vamsi]

Why can't we have a nuclear powered carrier powered by 2* 190MWt CLWR-B2 reactors ?? Charles deGaulle weighs 42.5K tons and has 2*150MWt reactors, we can also have a IAC-1 class ship with nuclear power & CATOBAR

 

[johnj]

Only one Carrier ! French have plan to replace de gulle withe one only one PANG carrier which will be nuclear powered and with emals. It will come by 2040.

Two carriers 1. existing one 2. future one, both going to use EMALS & AAG and both are nuclear powered.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Why can't we have a nuclear powered carrier powered by 2* 190MWt CLWR-B2 reactors ?? Charles deGaulle weighs 42.5K tons and has 2*150MWt reactors, we can also have a IAC-1 class ship with nuclear power & CATOBAR

Bhai, we can have anything but reality is different. Building one class carrier is an idiotic nonsense and a logistical blunder along with many other things. Odds of having emals is probably single digits and having IAC-2 by a decade delay will be a boon whenever it gets laid. Finish IAC1 2nd carrier and let the IAC-2 run in parallel (nuclear or conventional). Some are talking like steam catapults don't work and emals is the game, emals is on 1 carrier that is barely operational yet.

US and West can print money at their whims, we don't have that luxury with rupee, stick with proven platforms and asymmetrical profiles to address higher powers like China. Cutting edge is a game that we are not ready yet. Limit that to strategic sphere only

 

[abingdonboy]

Bhai, we can have anything but reality is different. Building one class carrier is an idiotic nonsense and a logistical blunder along with many other things. Odds of having emals is probably single digits and having IAC-2 by a decade delay will be a boon whenever it gets laid. Finish IAC1 2nd carrier and let the IAC-2 run in parallel (nuclear or conventional). Some are talking like steam catapults don't work and emals is the game, emals is on 1 carrier that is barely operational yet.

US and West can print money at their whims, we don't have that luxury with rupee, stick with proven platforms and asymmetrical profiles to address higher powers like China. Cutting edge is a game that we are not ready yet. Limit that to strategic sphere only

IN going for these single/low single digit ship classes is creating white elephants and ensuring they will never grow to an appropriate size. Apparently no one inside IN HQ understands economies of scale.

they are making the exact same mistakes as the British armed forces who demanded everything be bespoke for them (Nimrod is the best example), this led to the collapse of the British defence industry and now they basically buy everything off the shelf from the US and Europe.

 

[omaebakabaka]

IN going for these single/low single digit ship classes is creating white elephants and ensuring they will never grow to an appropriate size. Apparently no one inside IN HQ understands economies of scale.

they are making the exact same mistakes as the British armed forces who demanded everything be bespoke for them (Nimrod is the best example), this led to the collapse of the British defence industry and now they basically buy everything off the shelf from the US and Europe.

Yes brother, I don't see a single consistent long term strategy in India Armed Forces that is executed to achieve that target except strategic systems and ISRO....they are even trying to kill the emergence of somewhat newly found energy in our public sectors by doing this state of crap nonsense. Pick a well thought out platform that has life for 2 or 3 upgrades in span of 30 to 40 years and multiply numbers. Simple truth is absent in our system

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Yes brother, I don't see a single consistent long term strategy in India Armed Forces that is executed to achieve that target except strategic systems and ISRO....they are even trying to kill the emergence of somewhat newly found energy in our public sectors by doing this state of crap nonsense. Pick a well thought out platform that has life for 2 or 3 upgrades in span of 30 to 40 years and multiply numbers. Simple truth is absent in our system

Have you seen how frequently Forces revise requirements in the midst of projects? And everytime their excuse is "development of this new weapon system is taking time and in the meantime threats have evolved and there is Revolution in Military Affairs (RMA)". This leads to constant shifting of goalposts like it happened in Tejas, the standard issue rifles, and now in ATAGS. Wonder why nobody questions Indian military's lack of "clairvoyance" when it comes to predicting RMAs in advance. In fact, we have people, especially in the Army, denying RMA even after it has happened. Remember @Bhadra sir rejecting Shivalik handgrenades in this very forum. Eventually Army adopted them after Americans upgraded theirs with a similarly featured grenade. Also in the 1990s there used to be this talk of how PGMs are not India's cup of tea and how its only meant for forces like Americans. And then there was that recent announcement of a new "Rocket Force" in the wake of Galwan. Were these people asleep earlier? Thing is, Forces have a big hand in the failure of modernization and indigenous defence industry.
.
As for Vikrant, it does make sense to order a sister ship now and keep working on a new, larger supercarrier for construction in the next decade by when we will have a much clearer picture of our future carrier air wings. If they really want a CATOBAR in order to be able to launch AEW&CS with fixed wings, maybe they should think of some STOBAR drone based AEW&CS?

 

[johnj]

Have you seen how frequently Forces revise requirements in the midst of projects? And everytime their excuse is "development of this new weapon system is taking time and in the meantime threats have evolved and there is Revolution in Military Affairs (RMA)". This leads to constant shifting of goalposts like it happened in Tejas, the standard issue rifles, and now in ATAGS. Wonder why nobody questions Indian military's lack of "clairvoyance" when it comes to predicting RMAs in advance. In fact, we have people, especially in the Army, denying RMA even after it has happened. Remember @Bhadra sir rejecting Shivalik handgrenades in this very forum. Eventually Army adopted them after Americans upgraded theirs with a similarly featured grenade. Also in the 1990s there used to be this talk of how PGMs are not India's cup of tea and how its only meant for forces like Americans. And then there was that recent announcement of a new "Rocket Force" in the wake of Galwan. Were these people asleep earlier? Thing is, Forces have a big hand in the failure of modernization and indigenous defence industry.
.
As for Vikrant, it does make sense to order a sister ship now and keep working on a new, larger supercarrier for construction in the next decade by when we will have a much clearer picture of our future carrier air wings. If they really want a CATOBAR in order to be able to launch AEW&CS with fixed wings, maybe they should think of some STOBAR drone based AEW&CS?

Big words man, but who is going to pay for those carriers ?? also when navy revise requirements in the midst of projects? yes now in p75i, inthe case IA, IAF they don't know what they want, so they always revise requirements in the midst of projects.
Last time I read, it's iac2 vs ssk/ssn fom cds/mod ??
AEW help CBG to track sea skimming missile at long range[mf star- 25km] that why IN want CATOBAR carrier with e2d.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Have you seen how frequently Forces revise requirements in the midst of projects? And everytime their excuse is "development of this new weapon system is taking time and in the meantime threats have evolved and there is Revolution in Military Affairs (RMA)". This leads to constant shifting of goalposts like it happened in Tejas, the standard issue rifles, and now in ATAGS. Wonder why nobody questions Indian military's lack of "clairvoyance" when it comes to predicting RMAs in advance. In fact, we have people, especially in the Army, denying RMA even after it has happened. Remember @Bhadra sir rejecting Shivalik handgrenades in this very forum. Eventually Army adopted them after Americans upgraded theirs with a similarly featured grenade. Also in the 1990s there used to be this talk of how PGMs are not India's cup of tea and how its only meant for forces like Americans. And then there was that recent announcement of a new "Rocket Force" in the wake of Galwan. Were these people asleep earlier? Thing is, Forces have a big hand in the failure of modernization and indigenous defence industry.
.
As for Vikrant, it does make sense to order a sister ship now and keep working on a new, larger supercarrier for construction in the next decade by when we will have a much clearer picture of our future carrier air wings. If they really want a CATOBAR in order to be able to launch AEW&CS with fixed wings, maybe they should think of some STOBAR drone based AEW&CS?

You are dead on with your pointings, Armed forces need to do two things, anticipate what battle field may look like in 2/3/4 decades working with military strategists and come up with requirements with focus on growing the domestic MIC capabilities not the number of dalaals. IA's Individual bravery is meaningless like Ukraine if sound decision making is replaced with insanity and trap the country.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Big words man, but who is going to pay for those carriers ?? also when navy revise requirements in the midst of projects? yes now in p75i, inthe case IA, IAF they don't know what they want, so they always revise requirements in the midst of projects.
Last time I read, it's iac2 vs ssk/ssn fom cds/mod ??
AEW help CBG to track sea skimming missile at long range[mf star- 25km] that why IN want CATOBAR carrier with e2d.

Soon to be 5T economy is going to pay for that....with two bays and open ocean and little countries around, India is foolish not to have 3 to 4 carriers with 2 at sea all the time controlling/watching trading routes. Money is not the issue, its the vision and weak minded people that govern the system that is at fault for our failings. Carrier construction capability is here to stay and will be nurtured.

 

[johnj]

Soon to be 5T economy is going to pay for that....with two bays and open ocean and little countries around, India is foolish not to have 3 to 4 carriers with 2 at sea all the time controlling/watching trading routes. Money is not the issue, its the vision and weak minded people that govern the system that is at fault for our failings. Carrier construction capability is here to stay and will be nurtured.

its the vision and weak minded people that govern the system that is at fault for our failings. - agree
Soon to be 5T economy is going to pay for that - waiting but -its the vision and weak minded people that govern the system that is at fault for our failings.
IN going for iac2/ssk1/ssk2/ssn but the question is system.
But not sure about additional iac1
CSL can sustain carrier construction capability by maintaining 2 ac.
I'm thinking why not 2 lhd in the place of additional iac1 and 1 hospital ship, then 4 catobar carriers.

 

[abingdonboy]

Big words man, but who is going to pay for those carriers ??

tired of this argument. You don’t pay for these things upfront and they aren’t available off the shelf. A sister ship to Vikrant will be built over 7-8 years and will be substantially cheaper than IAC-1 too. I’m sure GoI/IN can fund $100-200m/year

India’s economy today is where China’s was 15 years ago. But back then they were thinking 20-50 years ahead and their mammoth naval buildup seen today was provisioned for then. Can ANYONE point to evidence that the IN in 15 years from today will be even close to what the PLAN is today? PLAN is making 5 DDGs simultaneously right now, after P-15B IN has no plans to launch additional DDG, best case is there’s 1-2 P-18s floating 15 years from today. It’s a similar story with frigates

There will be 0 additional carriers by that time

can anyone even point to what the IN is planning to do after ~2027 when all 7 P17A, 4 11356 and 4 P-15B are completed? This is only 5 years away so efforts to fill those yards up should be occurring TODAY but we all know how this will go- they’ll wait to 2028-29 and then ‘sanction’ additional ships then to be in service by the mid 2030s.

and then people wonder why large private shipyards don’t exist in india

 

[omaebakabaka]

its the vision and weak minded people that govern the system that is at fault for our failings. - agree
Soon to be 5T economy is going to pay for that - waiting but -its the vision and weak minded people that govern the system that is at fault for our failings.
IN going for iac2/ssk1/ssk2/ssn but the question is system.
But not sure about additional iac1
CSL can sustain carrier construction capability by maintaining 2 ac.
I'm thinking why not 2 lhd in the place of additional iac1 and 1 hospital ship, then 4 catobar carriers.

IAC-2 is the opportunity to look into 2/3/4 decades as its at design stage. IAC-1 is more than enough in IOR setting and IAC-1 v2 should correct sub optimal design decisions to increase performance by 2 to 3 times with reasonable design modifications (upgrades generally double from 1st to 2nd version). Industry is already rooted to supply for another IAC-1 at economical price points, IAC-2 will need entire supply chain rejigging again leading to decades delays possibly and not having another carrier.....forget the whole AEW and so on but not having another carrier means no air patrols that would come with IAC-1 v2. I don't buy that ssk in lieu of carriers....lhd's make no sense for India operationally speaking. They will use that for transporting people from distressed countries or UN missions to score some bootlicking points. They just take operational finances without adding any depth for us, 3rd priority in my opinion

 

[abingdonboy]

This ‘we are poor’ game doesn’t even work anymore when you factor in economic growth. The IAF won’t even answer how they plan to reach their sanctioned squadron strength of 42 anytime in the next 20 years. All they’ll tell you is we will be at ~35 squadrons by the mid 2030s

India will be the clear 3rd largest economy within the next 10-15 years but all 3 armed forces are so myopic they don’t have any plans to scale up their capabilities. They are still trying to enact force modernisation goals set in the 1980s

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Big words man, but who is going to pay for those carriers ?? also when navy revise requirements in the midst of projects? yes now in p75i, inthe case IA, IAF they don't know what they want, so they always revise requirements in the midst of projects.
Last time I read, it's iac2 vs ssk/ssn fom cds/mod ??
AEW help CBG to track sea skimming missile at long range[mf star- 25km] that why IN want CATOBAR carrier with e2d.

$5 Billion. That is the annual acquisition budget for the Navy. Right now. By 2026, when will be a $5 Trillion economy, that budget would be $8-9 Billion. By 2030, when we will be a $7.5 Trillion economy, that budget would be $12.5 Billion.
Building the carrier would take from 2023-2030, lets say. And the cost would be around $5 Billion (including the carrier air wing). That is $715 Million per year. Are you telling me that an annual budget in the range of $ 5-12 Billion is insufficient to pay for $715 Million every year?

IAC-2 is the opportunity to look into 2/3/4 decades as its at design stage. IAC-1 is more than enough in IOR setting and IAC-1 v2 should correct sub optimal design decisions to increase performance by 2 to 3 times with reasonable design modifications (upgrades generally double from 1st to 2nd version). Industry is already rooted to supply for another IAC-1 at economical price points, IAC-2 will need entire supply chain rejigging again leading to decades delays possibly and not having another carrier.....forget the whole AEW and so on but not having another carrier means no air patrols that would come with IAC-1 v2. I don't buy that ssk in lieu of carriers....lhd's make no sense for India operationally speaking. They will use that for transporting people from distressed countries or UN missions to score some bootlicking points. They just take operational finances without adding any depth for us, 3rd priority in my opinion

LHD does make a lot of sense with defending Andaman and Nicobar. We can not afford to lose that. Agree with the rest though.

 

[abingdonboy]

$5 Billion. That is the annual acquisition budget for the Navy. Right now. By 2026, when will be a $5 Trillion economy, that budget would be $8-9 Billion. By 2030, when we will be a $7.5 Trillion economy, that budget would be $12.5 Billion.
Building the carrier would take from 2023-2030, lets say. And the cost would be around $5 Billion (including the carrier air wing). That is $715 Million per year. Are you telling me that an annual budget in the range of $ 5-12 Billion is insufficient to pay for $715 Million every year?



LHD does make a lot of sense with defending Andaman and Nicobar. We can not afford to lose that. Agree with the rest though.

What else are they spending their money on? No subs, no helicopters, no LHD, no fighters, no mine sweepers, no MPA etc etc we are on the verge of Indian shipyards going dry from a lack of orders from IN, where is all the money going?