INS Vikrant Aircraft Carrier (IAC)

Javelin_Sam

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Ins vikramaditya will remain operational for it's full service life . People who think IN has given up on it are smoking hash. It's issues are being addressed continuously.

Mig29k will also remain in service and will undergo mid life upgrades by 2026 which may include aesa radar and new weapons.

For Vikrant rafale m or f18 will be bought soon. Number are reduced to 36 since tedbf is in development .

TEDBF will replace mig29k once in service and will operate from vikramaditya and IAC-2 .

Anything else is pure speculation which is useless.
There is a big difference between being operational and being able to undertake high tempo high endurance operations when shit hits the roof. Vikramaditya is just a trainer carrier. That's it
 

Adm Kenobi

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No foolery vikrants lift were optimised for jets available to it at the time of designing. Entire aviation complex is designed keeping that in mind.

Let's wait what navy choses for it and we will find our reality of all speculation about lift size.
MiG-29K wasn't even commissioned until 2010, the design for AFC was completed by 2009 (was supposed to be done by 2004 but contract wasn't concluded). The basic design has remained the same even after hundreds of changes made by WDB (ex DND) & CSL.

As for Vikramaditya, it can handle a SH
20220223_220308.jpg

Manufacturer's claim, to be taken with a pinch of salt. It's still better than anything else that we have in open source.

There is a big difference between being operational and being able to undertake high tempo high endurance operations when shit hits the roof. Vikramaditya is just a trainer carrier. That's it
It would have slim chances of survival even if it was the carrier that the Russians advertised when they convinced IN to buy it. Small STOBAR carriers can't survive high BSD threats.

Same goes for IAC-1, there's a good reason why IN doesn't want another Vikrant *in place* of a 300m long large deck carrier.
 

Blademaster

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Ins vikramaditya will remain operational for it's full service life . People who think IN has given up on it are smoking hash. It's issues are being addressed continuously.

Mig29k will also remain in service and will undergo mid life upgrades by 2026 which may include aesa radar and new weapons.

For Vikrant rafale m or f18 will be bought soon. Number are reduced to 36 since tedbf is in development .

TEDBF will replace mig29k once in service and will operate from vikramaditya and IAC-2 .

Anything else is pure speculation which is useless.
I was told by other posters that TEDBF is just on paper design. Nothing has come out of it. Now you are saying differently. Who am I to believe? If what you say is correct, then my original statement regarding TEDBF still stands and we would be better off going with TEDBF full speed, junk the MRFA, and move the AMCA into 6th generation design stage. If we truly need a 5th generation fighter as a stopgap measure and on short notice, the only available and feasible option would be the Su-57. US would not sell the F-35 to us as long as we have the S-400. They were willing to alienate a major US ally who have been a member of NATO for over 60 years just because it got S-400 system.

The Korean K-21 fighter is not as stealthy since the weapons stick out of the bottom bay so it can't be considered as a true 5th generation fighter only a 4+++ or 4.9 generation fighter.

If you want to go ahead with the AMCA as a 5th generation fighter, then we got no hope of catching up to the western powers when US with its NGAF program and UK/Japan with its Tempest program and not to mention France's next generation fighter program come out with a 6th generation fighter by the time AMCA rolls off the production line. Effectively IAF will always be one or 1.5 generation behind. And at that time, China would have totally caught up with the western powers as it already came out with its 5th generation fighter. China may not have a robust engine program but they are working on it full speed, coming up with one iteration after the next and give it enough time and money, they will perfect it after acquiring the necessary database of know how and know why.
 

anirban8

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I was told by other posters that TEDBF is just on paper design. Nothing has come out of it. Now you are saying differently. Who am I to believe? If what you say is correct, then my original statement regarding TEDBF still stands and we would be better off going with TEDBF full speed, junk the MRFA, and move the AMCA into 6th generation design stage. If we truly need a 5th generation fighter as a stopgap measure and on short notice, the only available and feasible option would be the Su-57. US would not sell the F-35 to us as long as we have the S-400. They were willing to alienate a major US ally who have been a member of NATO for over 60 years just because it got S-400 system.

The Korean K-21 fighter is not as stealthy since the weapons stick out of the bottom bay so it can't be considered as a true 5th generation fighter only a 4+++ or 4.9 generation fighter.

If you want to go ahead with the AMCA as a 5th generation fighter, then we got no hope of catching up to the western powers when US with its NGAF program and UK/Japan with its Tempest program and not to mention France's next generation fighter program come out with a 6th generation fighter by the time AMCA rolls off the production line. Effectively IAF will always be one or 1.5 generation behind. And at that time, China would have totally caught up with the western powers as it already came out with its 5th generation fighter. China may not have a robust engine program but they are working on it full speed, coming up with one iteration after the next and give it enough time and money, they will perfect it after acquiring the necessary database of know how and know why.
What is the 6th generation plane you speak of what are the technologies that have to be incorporated into it??
 

Blademaster

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What is the 6th generation plane you speak of what are the technologies that have to be incorporated into it??
Wiki link as a primer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth-generation_fighter#India

From the link:

  • Advanced digital capabilities including high-capacity networking, AI, data fusion, cyber warfare, D2D and battlefield command, control and communications (C3) capabilities.
  • Optionally manned, with the same airframe capable of conducting piloted, remote controlled or onboard-AI controlled missions.
  • Enhanced human-systems integration, with virtual cockpits presented via helmet-mounted displays which allow the pilot 360-degree vision with AI-enhanced battlefield awareness, and replacing conventional instrument panels.
  • Advanced stealth airframes and avionics.
  • Advanced variable-cycle engines able to cruise economically but still deliver high thrust when required.
  • Increased-range stand off and BVR weapons.
  • Potential use of directed-energy weapons such as a laser CIWS.
Another link discussing the 6th generation design features: https://eurasiantimes.com/top-usaf-official-says-6th-gen-fighter-jet-programs/
 

IndianHawk

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I was told by other posters that TEDBF is just on paper design. Nothing has come out of it. Now you are saying differently. Who am I to believe? If what you say is correct, then my original statement regarding TEDBF still stands and we would be better off going with TEDBF full speed, junk the MRFA, and move the AMCA into 6th generation design stage. If we truly need a 5th generation fighter as a stopgap measure and on short notice, the only available and feasible option would be the Su-57. US would not sell the F-35 to us as long as we have the S-400. They were willing to alienate a major US ally who have been a member of NATO for over 60 years just because it got S-400 system.

The Korean K-21 fighter is not as stealthy since the weapons stick out of the bottom bay so it can't be considered as a true 5th generation fighter only a 4+++ or 4.9 generation fighter.

If you want to go ahead with the AMCA as a 5th generation fighter, then we got no hope of catching up to the western powers when US with its NGAF program and UK/Japan with its Tempest program and not to mention France's next generation fighter program come out with a 6th generation fighter by the time AMCA rolls off the production line. Effectively IAF will always be one or 1.5 generation behind. And at that time, China would have totally caught up with the western powers as it already came out with its 5th generation fighter. China may not have a robust engine program but they are working on it full speed, coming up with one iteration after the next and give it enough time and money, they will perfect it after acquiring the necessary database of know how and know why.
Hold your horses. 6th gen jets are still in conceptual state . They will take decades to proliferate.

F22 first flew in 1997. Now we are 2022. After 25 years other than USA no one has 5th gen plane in decent numbers.
Russians are struggling with su57.

And if j20 is stealth with those huge canards then we need to invent new laws of physics.
Also j20 is utterly underpowered ( can't even supercruise) and have avionics a generation behind that of rafale. China won't catch up with west for 20-30 years still.

Applying similar timelines to 6th gen jets even of usa starts getting them by 2030 they will only proliferate world wide 30 years later.

European fcas is already delayed and won't enter service before 2050 and that is if not delayed anymore which germans are hellbent on doing . Tempest may come a bit faster but what exactly is 6th gen in it??
Besides Europeans haven't build any 5th gen jets on their own won't they face more delays challanges in jumping to 6th gen.

Now coming back to tedbf.
Yes it's not properly funded as of now. But then again reducing the number required of foreign jets from 57 to 36 is a clear signal that tedbf will go ahead. Navy might require 150+ jets for 3 carriers fleet in future so tedbf number will grow with time .

AMCA is more than enough for next 3 decades barring usa and Russia no one will have anything more advance then that and that includes chinese.

A real chinese stealth jet might only emerge by 2040 when they will be able to match avionics level of rafale F5 and can get designs without canards and have proper powerful engines to supercruise.

By the time we will have AMCA mk2 with similar characteristics.

And rest assured we will be working on 6tg gen concept once AMCA starts flying and mwf development is over . By 2028-2035 we will be designing that. Meanwhile we are already working in parallel to so called 6th gen concept with unmanned drones , drone swarm mothership concepts and loyal wingmans ( jaguar Max and cats program) are exactly what's others are defining as 6th gen.

So calm down and carry on.
 

IndianHawk

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MiG-29K wasn't even commissioned until 2010, the design for AFC was completed by 2009 (was supposed to be done by 2004 but contract wasn't concluded). The basic design has remained the same even after hundreds of changes made by WDB (ex DND) & CSL.

As for Vikramaditya, it can handle a SH
View attachment 168216
Manufacturer's claim, to be taken with a pinch of salt. It's still better than anything else that we have in open source.


It would have slim chances of survival even if it was the carrier that the Russians advertised when they convinced IN to buy it. Small STOBAR carriers can't survive high BSD threats.

Same goes for IAC-1, there's a good reason why IN doesn't want another Vikrant *in place* of a 300m long large deck carrier.
Yes but decision to operate mig 29k was taken much before than 2010.
 

pipebomb

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As for Vikramaditya, it can handle a SH
Can it ? I am not ready to take boeing's word for it. Does anyone know the width of viky's lifts.

I say 3-4 more rafale squds for IAF and a promise to transfer 26 IN's rafale to IAF when TEDBF arrives and two seater can be shared for training . This is the only solution i see given our tight budget.
 

vikata

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This year capital budget of navy got around 40% jump,so it must've ben earmarked for sth ,either we are going to have drones or mcrbf .it must be a way to purchase American to give hafta for our s400.
 

Adm Kenobi

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Yes but decision to operate mig 29k was taken much before than 2010.
The point I was trying to make - we did not know the full capability and the problems related to the MiG-29K airframe when we started building the IAC-1. The only fighters we had in service at the time were sea harriers
Can it ? I am not ready to take boeing's word for it. Does anyone know the width of viky's lifts.
One of the lift is >>9m in width, the other one is ~9m, exact figures aren't known. 1 of the lift can definitely take a SH down to the hangar bay. Same can't be said for Rafale by Dassault A.
I say 3-4 more rafale squds for IAF and a promise to transfer 26 IN's rafale to IAF when TEDBF arrives and two seater can be shared for training . This is the only solution i see given our tight budget.
We don't live in a perfect world, IN is never going to transfer any fighters to IAF, not even the MiG-29K/KUB. IAF has made it clear that they'll get the 114 MRFA, they have got CCS clearance for it. Budget isn't the main problem with our current plan, execution is.

@vampyrbladez regarding SSN, any agreement is unlikely to be concluded this FY.
@vikata this year's increase is mainly to pay for the liabilities of existing projects, buying several SAM & AShM (upto 2030) & new acquisitions like NGMV + development costs. MRCBF & drones are uncertain, you can also thank IA for the increase, their inability to spend has granted Navy a big budget this fiscal.
 

IndianHawk

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‘These are also needed on Vikramaditya, hence we are very short on fighters. The Babus and Indian navy should speed up.
They will operate from vikrant only till rafale m or f18 arrives . Then they will be dedicated only for vikramaditya
 

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