INS Vikrant Aircraft Carrier (IAC)

[Blademaster]

You didn't get the point yet. The issue is not about design. The issue is the time after first flight to operational deployment. Even the Tejas in Mark 2 form will have first flight by 2023, then another 4 years for development, testing and certification (as per ADA itself) and then it needs to get into the hands of IAF TPs, TACDE and then operational deployment. That is atleast by 2029 if everything goes by plan.
TEDBF is an even more radical design step up. It will have to do the entire IOC, FOC from scratch. From a projected first flight(again as per the designers itself) in 2026, it is not coming anytime sooner

Yes but we need to bite the bullet at some point. There is no way that India can afford shelling out $30B overseas for foreign fighters. The blame falls squarely on the IAF brass who failed to see the clouds gathering on the horizon and has led India to this point. 8 years ago, IAF should have stood up and told GoI either get the Rafales in 126 units and pay $30 billion or proceed ahead with TEDBF full speed to get a 2 engine fighter online the next decade instead of wasting $8 billion dollars.

 

[Adm Kenobi]

we can print them out like the US did to pay for its weapon programs. No foreign exchange needed.

"Easier said than done"

Printing 40-₹80,000cr more than what we already do will lead to very high level of inflation, the ones suffering due to inflation will be our own, will stall our real GDP growth, can even cause a recession!
Not to mention the depreciation in the value of INR domestically and internationally, India is not the same as US.

P.S. Erdoğan used to think the same as you.

 

[NutCracker]

You are presuming that we pay for these in dollars. Not the case. We are paying for it in rupees and we can print them out like the US did to pay for its weapon programs. No foreign exchange needed.

You are over simplifying the dollar-rupee connection and OVERESTIMATING the share of manpower.


Tejas could be 30M$ a pop , but even the US can print out an f-16 at 40M$ per unit.

All those 1200 , 600 XYZ might cost us 20-25% less and that still is HUGE AMOUNT.

 

[Blademaster]

You are over simplifying the dollar-rupee connection and OVERESTIMATING the share of manpower.


Tejas could be 30M$ a pop , but even the US can print out an f-16 at 40M$ per unit.

All those 1200 , 600 XYZ might cost us 20-25% less and that still is HUGE AMOUNT.

yes it is a huge amount and it is a direct stimulus and injection into the economy of India and provides India with a robust military industrial complex capable of meeting India's security needs without needing to rely on another country's weapons.

 

[Blademaster]

"Easier said than done"

Printing 40-₹80,000cr more than what we already do will lead to very high level of inflation, the ones suffering due to inflation will be our own, will stall our real GDP growth, can even cause a recession!
Not to mention the depreciation in the value of INR domestically and internationally, India is not the same as US.

P.S. Erdoğan used to think the same as you.

Erdogan did it on a wide scale and did it without increasing production of the workforce or enhancing the value of the workforce.

I am talking about narrowing the scope to India's weapon programs. Besides if you increase the technological base and technological know-how & skill sets of the workforce, any increase in the money supply is justified and supported. After all, the value of a currency lies in the value of production of one's workforce

 

[Adm Kenobi]

Erdogan did it on a wide scale and did it without increasing production of the workforce or enhancing the value of the workforce.

I am talking about narrowing the scope to India's weapon programs. Besides if you increase the technological base and technological know-how & skill sets of the workforce, any increase in the money supply is justified and supported. After all, the value of a currency lies in the value of production of one's workforce

People here treat Military like it's the only sector in India. And the amount you are asking for is not small, at all. We are already printing more & more money each year (per annum)
1. We can't increase it to the level you are asking for, we are printing as much as we can without causing more inflation & unbearable level of devaluation of our national currency which affects our growth (though it is affecting our growth in reality, due to the invasion)
2. Total Factor productivity of Turkey is still far higher than India.
3. Turkey has seen a good growth in terms technological development & patent, the raw number of people employed in the defence sector has grown at a decent pace.
4. There are other sectors of the economy which need a good share of funds, govt can't ignore those sectors.

Rule of thumb-inflation reduces demand (real GDP growth will be lower than what we could achieve otherwise).

 

[Dark Sorrow]

The gestation period would not be that long as the LCA program or the AMCA program because no stealth characteristics would be incorporated.

Only Time will tell.

Mig-29s would serve the purpose for the time being until TEDBF comes online.

Not as per IN's assessment. Navy is just done with Mig-29 and Vikramadatya.
Just because a lot of time, money and effort has been invested in the platform navy is forced to operate them. Navy is not building operations around this platforms.

Yes you do because 6th generation type calls for adaptive engine and ability to supercruise at a higher speed while maintaining stealth.

And the timeline does not work out in AMCA's favor.

Still AMCA is better option than Russian junk.
AMCA Mk2. is expected to have features of 6th generation aircraft.
As for supercruise AMCA Mk. 1 is expected to supercruise at a higher speed while maintaining stealth.

You are presuming that we pay for these in dollars. Not the case. We are paying for it in rupees and we can print them out like the US did to pay for its weapon programs. No foreign exchange needed.

Factually incorrect statement.
Tejas is 59.7 per cent by value and 75.5 per cent by numbers.
Out of total 344 LRUs (Line Replaceable Units) involved in the system level of LCA, a total of 210 LRUs have been produced indigenously and balance 134 LRUs are being imported from foreign companies
Purchasing these LRUs will need foreign exchange.
One must remember HAL, BEL, BDL, Mishra Dhatu Nigam Limited, etc. are listed companies and need show profit in their balance sheet.
Private players will also want to book profit.
Material cost, fabrication and assembly cost are real.
India is not US that we print more money and problems are solved. Printing more money will result in rise in inflation. You solution is untenable.

It is up and flying and doing combat missions which can be more than said about the AMCA program. It is not even projected to fly until 2030s which by that time, the Su-57 will be a fully matured program with all its shortcomings ironed out. At that time IAF still has no 5th generation fighters and US would never sell the F-35s as long as S-400 remains integrated to India's air defense network. IAF brass will change their minds in due time.

Your suggestion is scuttle AMCA program in favor of Su-57; that is not going to happen.
IAF regards Su-57 as a failed project and their is no point in repeatedly beat the dead horse.
I know you have soft corner for Russia and Putin for whatever reason but suggesting we should buy Su-57 and endanger/scuttle AMCA program is quite bizarre, even for you.

Even Russians have understood we will not go for Su-57 hence they came up with Su-75 scam.

Our bigger concern should be why S-400 data is being relayed back to Russia. This is the biggest threat to our national security for obvious reasons.

 

[Blademaster]

Factually incorrect statement.
Tejas is 59.7 per cent by value and 75.5 per cent by numbers.
Out of total 344 LRUs (Line Replaceable Units) involved in the system level of LCA, a total of 210 LRUs have been produced indigenously and balance 134 LRUs are being imported from foreign companies
Purchasing these LRUs will need foreign exchange.
One must remember HAL, BEL, BDL, Mishra Dhatu Nigam Limited, etc. are listed companies and need show profit in their balance sheet.
Private players will also want to book profit.
Material cost, fabrication and assembly cost are real.
India is not US that we print more money and problems are solved. Printing more money will result in rise in inflation. You solution is untenable.

Your suggestion is scuttle AMCA program in favor of Su-57; that is not going to happen.
IAF regards Su-57 as a failed project and their is no point in repeatedly beat the dead horse.
I know you have soft corner for Russia and Putin for whatever reason but suggesting we should buy Su-57 and endanger/scuttle AMCA program is quite bizarre, even for you.

Even Russians have understood we will not go for Su-57 hence they came up with Su-75 scam.

Our bigger concern should be why S-400 data is being relayed back to Russia. This is the biggest threat to our national security for obvious reasons.

I never said scuttling the AMCA program. I said move the AMCA program into the 6th generation category. We need to close the generation cap.

And as for buying the Su-57s. That only comes when we can put in Indian avionics. Otherwise forget it. We can wait for the AMCA then but it will be a while. 15-20 years from now.

As for the indigenous value of Tejas, 75% of that comes from the engine alone. In my earlier post I left out the kaveri program. We need to get the Kaveri program back on track and to full speed and support it fully. And as long as GoI orders more LCAs, the LRUs will practically become 100% indian because we get the value of scale.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Money does not grow on trees and yet US seem able to print gazillions of dollars to fund its weapon programs. India can do the same thing with its rupees and fund its own weapon programs without needing to use its foreign exchange reserves.

No, India can't do the same.
When US prints excess of dollars or float dollar bonds countries, companies and investors line-up to purchase them.
If India does the same no one will buy our printed Rupee or bonds resulting in rise in inflation.

 

[Blademaster]

No, India can't do the same.
When US prints excess of dollars or float dollar bonds countries, companies and investors line-up to purchase them.
If India does the same no one will buy our printed Rupee or bonds resulting in rise in inflation.

Because India has no products that any nation wants to buy. Once India starts producing that, nations will line up and buy rupees in massive amounts.

So we need to get our technological base going and fund them accordingly so we can get nations to buy our rupees.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

I never said scuttling the AMCA program. I said move the AMCA program into the 6th generation category. We need to close the generation cap.

And as for buying the Su-57s. That only comes when we can put in Indian avionics. Otherwise forget it. We can wait for the AMCA then but it will be a while. 15-20 years from now.

As for the indigenous value of Tejas, 75% of that comes from the engine alone. In my earlier post I left out the kaveri program. We need to get the Kaveri program back on track and to full speed and support it fully. And as long as GoI orders more LCAs, the LRUs will practically become 100% indian because we get the value of scale.

Purchasing Su-57 will scuttle the AMCA program. We can't afford 2 5th generation aircraft.
Russians have made it clear they don't want to share work with India nor want to replace avionics with Indian ones or replace mission computer or share code for mission computer.
As for the indigenous content by value currently is 59.7% and not 75%.
Increasing quantity of order does not indigenize the LRUs it only gets their cost down due to economy of scale.
A lot R&D effort, money and time needs to be invested in these projects and these LRUs also not be validated and certified.
Kaveri program is appears to be dead as far Tejas is concerned. Kaveri program will have different applications.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Because India has no products that any nation wants to buy. Once India starts producing that, nations will line up and buy rupees in massive amounts.

So we need to get our technological base going and fund them accordingly so we can get nations to buy our rupees.

Unless INR becomes global currency for trade, this won't happens and to do this we need to increase our export on level as PRC be it manufactured goods, services, high technology items, etc.

 

[Anandhu Krishna]

Why?
We use P8I, MQ-9 Sea Guardian, Sikorsky SH-60 Seahawk and are planning to induct MQ-4C Triton.
F-18 Super Hornet Bk. 3 will integrate seamless in all the above platforms.
The Block III Super Hornet comes with advanced networking and open architecture design that allows it to work jointly with the Indian Navy's P-8I and other US-origin assets.
Open architecture design also will enable IN to integrate Indian weapons and communicate with other Indian naval assets.
Rafale will have problem with all above capabilities.
F-18 Super Hornet is currently the most proven system for naval operation and it seems to satisfy our requirement.

P8i is because there is no alternative choice. Mq9 and sh60 will have indigenous replacement in 10-12 yrs.
Regardless of what the capabilities are, fa18's biggest drawback is that its an American fighter.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

P8i is because there is no alternative choice. Mq9 and sh60 will have indigenous replacement in 10-12 yrs.
Regardless of what the capabilities are, fa18's biggest drawback is that its an American fighter.

Aren't we suppose to have F-18's replacement in 10-12 years.
All our indigenous jets are extremely dependent on US and it allies. Will you consider this as a biggest drawback and limit their induction?

 

[IndianHawk]

Ins vikramaditya will remain operational for it's full service life . People who think IN has given up on it are smoking hash. It's issues are being addressed continuously.

Mig29k will also remain in service and will undergo mid life upgrades by 2026 which may include aesa radar and new weapons.

For Vikrant rafale m or f18 will be bought soon. Number are reduced to 36 since tedbf is in development .

TEDBF will replace mig29k once in service and will operate from vikramaditya and IAC-2 .

Anything else is pure speculation which is useless.

 

[NutCracker]

Ins vikramaditya will remain operational for it's full service life . People who think IN has given up on it are smoking hash. It's issues are being addressed continuously.

Mig29k will also remain in service and will undergo mid life upgrades by 2026 which may include aesa radar and new weapons.

For Vikrant rafale m or f18 will be bought soon. Number are reduced to 36 since tedbf is in development .

TEDBF will replace mig29k once in service and will operate from vikramaditya and IAC-2 .

Anything else is pure speculation which is useless.

Hope the hanger lift width of Vikramaditya is being taken into account , i think they are narrower than Vikrant.

 

[IndianHawk]

Hope the hanger lift width of Vikramaditya is being taken into account , i think they are narrower than Vikrant.

What is to take into account??
Vikramaditya lift mig29k now later they will fit tedbf perfectly which has folding wings!
No other aircraft will flew from it.

 

[NutCracker]

What is to take into account??
Vikramaditya lift mig29k now later they will fit tedbf perfectly which has folding wings!
No other aircraft will flew from it.

Mig29k has very narrow folded wings and still tightly fits into Vikrmaditya's lift. So TEBF also should have similar narrow wings unlike SH-18.

 

[IndianHawk]

Mig29k has very narrow folded wings and still tightly fits into Vikrmaditya's lift. So TEBF also should have similar narrow wings unlike SH-18.

That's a given.

 

[NutCracker]

That's a given.

Hope so, We have seen foolery happening with Vikrant's lift.