INS Vikramaditya (Adm Gorshkov) aircraft carrier

omaebakabaka

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India's entire carrier procurement framework has been irrational & nonsensical.

Buying outdated carriers at exorbitant prices, building local carriers in weird one-off class, and then dreaming of a 3rd carrier. I'm glad the CDS shot these ridiculous ideas down.

A P5 country with interests all over the globe like UK which has a habit of getting into expeditionary wars went without carriers for several years, why IN felt it important enough to pour such resources into a sub-par ship with a sub-par airwing like Vikramaditya is beyond me.

Russia is/was too desperate for money to dictate terms to anyone - but that doesn't stop them from making you think they can. That's negotiation 101. Other than India no one would be willing to pay Russia billions to buy a rustbucket & to keep Sevmash well-fed.

And at this point no one with an ounce of integrity can deny with a straight face that there was huge corruption in the whole Vikky affair. Shameful conduct by IN brass. It's clear the Russians had them by the [email protected]
UK is an American bitch and in that way they have 11 carriers. India has its needs and carrier even outdated is effective in our region against Pakistan and Chinese ships. When we do not have our industry that is capable and competent then less than optimal decisions is the natural consequence combined with corruption, leftist views, lethargy, no spirit to work in the iterests of country and so on. Outdated carrier in 71 was still useful and this is not as outdated as you think....not sure what you are comparing it against( Nimitz or Ford class?)

Corruption built over nearly 1000 years is not going to go away in a decade, its a culture thing and because of that one can't just pack up and do yajna.....country still has to navigate through it.
 

Marliii

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Yes, US Navy would have acted as detterence had the USSR came to help....Anyway, what UK does has no relevance to us. We have our own requirements and we are still a subcontinent and they are shadow of their past.
Could have made another twin vikrant instead of going to buy vikki.first they told it was free and pay money just for re configuration then asked more money or else they will keep it in their navy.navy is pitching now ins vishal as replacement for vikramaditya that alone tells that it will be retired in the 30s
 

omaebakabaka

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Could have made another twin vikrant instead of going to buy vikki.first they told it was free and pay money just for re configuration then asked more money or else they will keep it in their navy.navy is pitching now ins vishal as replacement for vikramaditya that alone tells that it will be retired in the 30s
It was a contingency as the sole functional antique carrier was overdue for retirement, let our industry deliver the first one on time. Vikramaditya, INS Chakra are strategic acquisitions for India and can't be acquired openly on the market....all projects of carrier scale overrun estimates budget and time especially considering Russia industry after the 90s collapse and us not having options to go somewhere else.....it will stay till 2040s or 50s.

Ton of Russian input went into 1st indigenous one....so do not discount that partnership and may not have happened if vikramaditya was not purchased. Probably the last deal for us on carriers hopefully and nuke subs
 

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Russia’s sole aircraft carrier may get latest radio-technical equipment



Rezistor-E system


The Rezistor-E system has been developed and produced by the Chelyabinsk Research Institute of Measuring and Radio-Technical Equipment. By now, two Rezistor-E systems have been delivered to India. In particular, the Indian Navy’s flagship, the aircraft carrier Vikramaditya (the Russian Navy’s former carrier Admiral Gorshkov) upgraded at the Sevmash Shipyard in Russia’s northwest and delivered to the Indian side is outfitted with this system.


According to the data of the Chelyabinsk Research Institute of Measuring and Radio-Technical Equipment, Indian Navy pilots have already conducted over 1,500 landings on the carrier’s deck and the Rezistor-E system "performed splendidly."


The Rezistor-E system features a digital channel of data exchange with deck-based MiG-29K/MiG-29KUB fighter aircraft operating in the Indian and Russian Navies.


"The Rezistor-E equipment for the aircraft carrier Vikrant under construction in India was delivered on schedule," the Chelyabinsk Research Institute said.

 

FalconSlayers

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dharmic aeroplate v2 (@daeroplate_v2) Tweeted:
we spent $1b on refurbishing Vikky, another $1b on Mig29K air wing, 1 honeytrap scandal, what did our tax payer money get? a 'training carrier' that is barely able to sail 2 weeks in last 2 yrs, a 29K unable to take sustained shocks of carrier landings and zero accountability.


 

Tridev123

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dharmic aeroplate v2 (@daeroplate_v2) Tweeted:
we spent $1b on refurbishing Vikky, another $1b on Mig29K air wing, 1 honeytrap scandal, what did our tax payer money get? a 'training carrier' that is barely able to sail 2 weeks in last 2 yrs, a 29K unable to take sustained shocks of carrier landings and zero accountability.


Well, the allegations are too serious to be ignored.
Especially if the statement 'barely able to sail two weeks in the last 2 years' is true.

I like many Indians do not feel the need to align either with the Russians or the Americans. I would like to align only with India. We should in an ideal situation design and manufacture all the weapons that our country needs. Including the components which make up the weapon systems. So our foreign policy should be to take assistance from any non hostile country which helps us to achieve our long-term goal of total self reliance. On terms and conditions acceptable to us and which does not compromise our strategic autonomy and independence.

I accept that in a war situation, the Vikramaditya will become operational in spite of the short comings. Our Navy chaps will ensure that it sets sail to fight.

But the truth needs to be told. Is the Vikramaditya and it's air wing in such dire straits. Or is it mudslinging by vested lobbies.

Probably an serving Navy or ex Navy official can clear the air and give us the real picture.

And if some of the allegations are true, have we learnt our lessons and designed the new, to be inducted Vikrant in such a way that it will be a viable high performance aircraft carrier. Leaving aside the air wing component. If worst comes to worst, the LCA Tejas Navy aircraft can be used to form the air wing till the TEDBF comes into action within a decade. After all the Sea Harrier was also single engined. I guess the useful payload of the Naval Tejas will be at least equal to the Sea Harrier.
 

Pandora

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dharmic aeroplate v2 (@daeroplate_v2) Tweeted:
we spent $1b on refurbishing Vikky, another $1b on Mig29K air wing, 1 honeytrap scandal, what did our tax payer money get? a 'training carrier' that is barely able to sail 2 weeks in last 2 yrs, a 29K unable to take sustained shocks of carrier landings and zero accountability.


And how he come to conclusions ? BC now days every one is Defence analyst,just because "Captain of the Ship didn't call him for coordinates" doesn't mean Ship is broke.There is some issue with Miggy but hey aint we used to face the same for every other russian articles.
 

Tshering22

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Well, the allegations are too serious to be ignored.
Especially if the statement 'barely able to sail two weeks in the last 2 years' is true.

I like many Indians do not feel the need to align either with the Russians or the Americans. I would like to align only with India. We should in an ideal situation design and manufacture all the weapons that our country needs. Including the components which make up the weapon systems. So our foreign policy should be to take assistance from any non hostile country which helps us to achieve our long-term goal of total self reliance. On terms and conditions acceptable to us and which does not compromise our strategic autonomy and independence.

I accept that in a war situation, the Vikramaditya will become operational in spite of the short comings. Our Navy chaps will ensure that it sets sail to fight.

But the truth needs to be told. Is the Vikramaditya and it's air wing in such dire straits. Or is it mudslinging by vested lobbies.

Probably an serving Navy or ex Navy official can clear the air and give us the real picture.

And if some of the allegations are true, have we learnt our lessons and designed the new, to be inducted Vikrant in such a way that it will be a viable high performance aircraft carrier. Leaving aside the air wing component. If worst comes to worst, the LCA Tejas Navy aircraft can be used to form the air wing till the TEDBF comes into action within a decade. After all the Sea Harrier was also single engined. I guess the useful payload of the Naval Tejas will be at least equal to the Sea Harrier.
I think most of our carrier woes are simply political. In 72 years of India's modern history, this is the first time we have a government that is seriously thinking about defense local production. We had a capable defense industry in the 70s that was destroyed due to Soviet money polluting the minds of our then rulers. The 80s were largely good since we had squeaky new Soviet toys & USSR was alive & kicking.

Then came the dreaded 90s & early 2000s and we all know what happened to the economy. Not to mention the truly Indian narrative was struggling to even take off under ABV, when the leftist narrative was the only "approved" narrative - meaning foreign imports and commissions over choosing indigenous production.

While the concept of INS Vikrant started in 2013, it made it so far because the current government wants a domestic carrier and that the Navy has no budget to buy a British-made carrier. Otherwise VIshal would have been shelved & INS Vikrant might have still been stuck in hull metal-cutting ceremony today.
 

Tridev123

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I think most of our carrier woes are simply political. In 72 years of India's modern history, this is the first time we have a government that is seriously thinking about defense local production. We had a capable defense industry in the 70s that was destroyed due to Soviet money polluting the minds of our then rulers. The 80s were largely good since we had squeaky new Soviet toys & USSR was alive & kicking.

Then came the dreaded 90s & early 2000s and we all know what happened to the economy. Not to mention the truly Indian narrative was struggling to even take off under ABV, when the leftist narrative was the only "approved" narrative - meaning foreign imports and commissions over choosing indigenous production.

While the concept of INS Vikrant started in 2013, it made it so far because the current government wants a domestic carrier and that the Navy has no budget to buy a British-made carrier. Otherwise VIshal would have been shelved & INS Vikrant might have still been stuck in hull metal-cutting ceremony today.
Yes, probably the then Soviet Union wanted India to remain a captive market and not try to develop alternative indigenous weapons which would replace Soviet weapons in our armed forces.
And probably today's Russia is also not very enthusiastic about large scale technology transfer to India to help India climb the self sufficiency ladder.

This is not to say that the West was very supportive of our attempts at indigenisation

But the original question still remains unanswered. If the very adverse reports on the actual operational availability of the Vikramaditya are not true then it should be countered strongly by the naval establishment if deemed appropriate.Or least some media channels should provide the correct narrative. If these reports are part of some misinformation campaign launched by anti national forces, then the security agencies should formally charge the people involved. Because such kind of reports create doubts in the minds of the public and also probably may lower the morale of the service men.

But I believe that there is increasing realisation amongst all sections of our society of the advantages of relying on indigenous weapons and decreasing imports as no country can call itself an great power purely on the strength of imported weapons.
 

Tshering22

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Yes, probably the then Soviet Union wanted India to remain a captive market and not try to develop alternative indigenous weapons which would replace Soviet weapons in our armed forces.
And probably today's Russia is also not very enthusiastic about large scale technology transfer to India to help India climb the self sufficiency ladder.

This is not to say that the West was very supportive of our attempts at indigenisation

But the original question still remains unanswered. If the very adverse reports on the actual operational availability of the Vikramaditya are not true then it should be countered strongly by the naval establishment if deemed appropriate.Or least some media channels should provide the correct narrative. If these reports are part of some misinformation campaign launched by anti national forces, then the security agencies should formally charge the people involved. Because such kind of reports create doubts in the minds of the public and also probably may lower the morale of the service men.

But I believe that there is increasing realisation amongst all sections of our society of the advantages of relying on indigenous weapons and decreasing imports as no country can call itself an great power purely on the strength of imported weapons.
On an average there are at least a few dozen admirals in the pockets of different arms lobbies in India. This is also applicable for the army and the IAF. They don't just get billions through tendering straight. Most of the decisions are made long before the weapons even reach the testing stage. Why do you think that there are no attempts being made to expand shipbuilding capacity at GRSE, MDL, CSL, etc. when they know that there is a huge demand for ships in the coming year?

Every dockyard does a business forecast based on the DPP and the LTIPP documents that includes a lot, and I mean a lot of future anticipated requirements with a margin of 20% give or take.

These PSUs are intentionally held back using bureaucracy but middle ministers, IAS, admirals and other officers way below the PMO to keep Yantar Shipyard, Kalinin Shipyard, Fincantieri, Naval Group, Navantia, etc. shipyards busy.

There is another side to it as well. That being politics; using arms deals to buy countries' favours.

Turkey turning a supplier for navies of India, Pakistan?

Some Babu got the brainwave that it would be easier to buy Turkey's allegiance from Pakistan if we order ships from them. These idiots have no concept of strategic thoughts of interests of India becoming a superpower. They only care about their name, money, and "phacilitiz".

That's why India preferred a fleet replenishment ship from Turks rather than getting something very advanced. It is a logistics ship that supplies food, ammunition, spares and other inventories necessary to keep ships afloat. Any Indian shipyard can make it, but contracting this reminds Turkey diplomatically that allying with us in the long-term would benefit Turkey more.

Coming back to INS Vikramaditya, it is most likely the last Russian-made carrier grade ship that we have bought from them.

If PM Modi plays his cards right, he can actually use the INS Vikrant's case as a precedent to make carriers in the future only from Indian shipyards.
 

IndianHawk

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On an average there are at least a few dozen admirals in the pockets of different arms lobbies in India. This is also applicable for the army and the IAF. They don't just get billions through tendering straight. Most of the decisions are made long before the weapons even reach the testing stage. Why do you think that there are no attempts being made to expand shipbuilding capacity at GRSE, MDL, CSL, etc. when they know that there is a huge demand for ships in the coming year?

Every dockyard does a business forecast based on the DPP and the LTIPP documents that includes a lot, and I mean a lot of future anticipated requirements with a margin of 20% give or take.

These PSUs are intentionally held back using bureaucracy but middle ministers, IAS, admirals and other officers way below the PMO to keep Yantar Shipyard, Kalinin Shipyard, Fincantieri, Naval Group, Navantia, etc. shipyards busy.

There is another side to it as well. That being politics; using arms deals to buy countries' favours.

Turkey turning a supplier for navies of India, Pakistan?

Some Babu got the brainwave that it would be easier to buy Turkey's allegiance from Pakistan if we order ships from them. These idiots have no concept of strategic thoughts of interests of India becoming a superpower. They only care about their name, money, and "phacilitiz".

That's why India preferred a fleet replenishment ship from Turks rather than getting something very advanced. It is a logistics ship that supplies food, ammunition, spares and other inventories necessary to keep ships afloat. Any Indian shipyard can make it, but contracting this reminds Turkey diplomatically that allying with us in the long-term would benefit Turkey more.

Coming back to INS Vikramaditya, it is most likely the last Russian-made carrier grade ship that we have bought from them.

If PM Modi plays his cards right, he can actually use the INS Vikrant's case as a precedent to make carriers in the future only from Indian shipyards.
Turkish shipyards were recently modernized by European contractors.

Indian fleet replenishment deal involved not just tanker design but also modernization of shipyard along European standards.

Turkish bid was cheaper for same thing offered by other Europeans and they learnt from European themselves.

Turky was the only bidder willing to build all ships in india rest were demanding first ship at foreign then rest in india .

Also keep in mind devaluation of Turkish currency against dollar and rupee which has made the deal much cheaper for us.

Also while we can design those tankers in india our Design institutes are overwhelmed with warship design works ( next carrier , next gen destroyers frigrates). So we are trying to develop in house design capabilities in shipyards for faster production in future. That's why foreign involvement in tankers.
 

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