INS Vikramaditya (Adm Gorshkov) aircraft carrier

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Indian Navy conducted flight trials
in 2012-13, and found the helicopter
suitable for coastal surveillance
operations. It was impressed with the
capability of the Rudra's sensors to
track ships at 12 and 14 km. The image
quality of the sensors was described as
good enough to even read the name of
ships at those ranges, and the navy
was keen to order at least 20
helicopters.[7]
.
some changes and rudra's anti ship capabilities can be turned in ASW capability .
.
wikipedia says rudra carrier atgm and a2a for IA and IAF and torpedo and anti ship missiles .
.
so we can use ASW torpedo for example : http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_46_torpedo
.
@Sea Eagle

 

[Warhawk]

Indian Navy conducted flight trials
in 2012-13, and found the helicopter
suitable for coastal surveillance
operations. It was impressed with the
capability of the Rudra's sensors to
track ships at 12 and 14 km. The image
quality of the sensors was described as
good enough to even read the name of
ships at those ranges, and the navy
was keen to order at least 20
helicopters.[7]
.
some changes and rudra's anti ship capabilities can be turned in ASW capability .
.
wikipedia says rudra carrier atgm and a2a for IA and IAF and torpedo and anti ship missiles .
.
so we can use ASW torpedo for example : Mark 46 torpedo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lol !! In your last post you said that IN was happy with Rudra's ASW capabilities and just in the next post you provide a link to prove yourself wrong.

As far as the coastal surveillance is concerned, for me a Dhruv with an XV-2000/2004 armed with Door guns would do far better than a Rudra.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Lol !! In your last post you said that IN was happy with Rudra's ASW capabilities and just in the next post you provide a link to prove yourself wrong.

As far as the coastal surveillance is concerned, for me a Dhruv with an XV-2000/2004 armed with Door guns would do far better than a Rudra.

my bad , sorry for that but rudra have ASW capabilities as I proved it

 

[abingdonboy]

I don't think that we only Looking for some 4 only ..I think More than 20 Such Helicopters are Planned ..

also we can use the Naval Dhurv for ASW Platform and It can do some more things ..Basically our Newer Destroyer can Accommodate 2 Helicopters

more specific , we should induct some Rudras. I read somewhere that navy was pleased with its ASW capabilities.
.
and indian ASW is not lacking but recovering . Many modern ships are ASW , and not to forget p8i poseidon

The discussion is about shipborne ASW platforms.BTW how can the Rudra solve the ASW problem ?

And the P-8s won't always be airborne to help hunting down subs.

For embarked ASW helos the IN is ONLY interested in the MRH (i.e. the replacement for their aged Sea Kings) that look set to go to S-70B, arguably the finest ASW helo in service today. The Rudra, that is the ALH WSI, has, AFAIK NEVER proven any ASW capabilities- the naval ALH has to an extent but the IN only tested the Rudra as a SHORE BASED surveillance asset and that too whether it would be armed with the chine-mounted helmet-cued gun, rockets and missiles or merely an ALH fitted with an ELBIT COMPASS FLIR pod is unknown.

The Rudra is still going to have the same issues that plagued the Naval Dhruv that meant the IN wasn't too keen on it and that HAL have failed to address i.e. the rotor blades cannot be folded hydraulically/electronically so it is highly doubtful the IN would be interested in having them on their ships now. And against the S-70B the ALH's ASW capabilities are severely lacking.


For a $1BN Destroyer it is frankly absurd they will be going to sea with 30+ year old Sea Kings and Chetaks, they deserve state of the art Helos like S-70Bs and nothing much is being reported on this deal which is worrying.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

That problem is solved, The link is posted recently at Dhruv thread ..

Navy as of now using Dhruv as the deal for MRH is seem to be under water, Navy already inducted a new squadron of Dhruvs few months back ..

=====================

ALH`s ASW capabilities compare to S-70B are quite similar, At time when there are no measures, Dhruvs suits the role..

The Rudra is still going to have the same issues that plagued the Naval Dhruv that meant the IN wasn't too keen on it and that HAL have failed to address i.e. the rotor blades cannot be folded hydraulically/electronically so it is highly doubtful the IN would be interested in having them on their ships now. And against the S-70B the ALH's ASW capabilities are severely lacking..

 

[Warhawk]

The Rudra was not tested with torpedos since IN was not interested in the project while it was in its Intial stage.

Here's the list of Weapons and some Mission Systems that were requested during initial phase of the project ->

- 20mm Turreted Gun
- 70mm rockets
- Air-to-Air missiles (ATAM)
- Electro Optic Pod (EO Pod)
- Helmet Pointing System (HPS)
- Electronic Warfare (EW) Suite (Radar Warning, Laser Warning and Missile Warning Systems)
- Flare and Chaff Dispenser (FCD)
- Video Data Recorder

Initial phase of project involved integration of all the Weapon Systems components with Helicopter in Stand-alone configuration to assess the efficacy of the Weapons.

Also the Navy wants a Rudra Mk III that has a "pintel mounted gun" (which has already been successfully tested on Rudra)

On Kamovs, media reports said that some new units of Ka-28/31 were also ordered along with Viki. Don't know whats the progress made on that purchase.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

They are mainly for Anti-Piracy and Piracy watch so does for Smugglers, Not for Vikramaditya though ..

 

[abingdonboy]

That problem is solved, The link is posted recently at Dhruv thread ..

Navy as of now using Dhruv as the deal for MRH is seem to be under water, Navy already inducted a new squadron of Dhruvs few months back ..

=====================

ALH`s ASW capabilities compare to S-70B are quite similar, At time when there are no measures, Dhruvs suits the role..

I'm sorry but this is patently false- claiming the ALH's ASW performance is no par with the S-70B's is entirely incorrect and an exaggeration. The N-ALH is a pretty good product but on pretty much every level the S-70B is superior and a top of the line machine that should be on the billion dollar destroyers of the IN.

The IN's MRH deal is in a bit of no mans land but I suspect it will be sorted under this new govt. The N-ALH was NEVER meant to be a replacement for the Sea Kings in the ASW role, this was always the purview of the N-MRH deal which is one of the priority procurements the IN outlined to the new GoI/Def Min.



The ALH SQD the IN raised recently is purely for SHORE-BASED SAR operations, not for ASW or embarked ops.


I'll have a look for news the ALH's folding blade issues have been addressed this would be very pleasant news to me if true.

 

[abingdonboy]

For the Rudra, I would LOVE to see the foldin-blade issues fixed and then to have the Rudras operating from the IN's new LHD/LPDs for the Marine corps the IN is raising. Having that kind of firepower operating from LHD/LPDs would be simply awesome. Wouldn't mind the IN purchasing a few SQDs worth of LCHs to go alongside them- now that would be EPIC!

 

[abingdonboy]

@Kunal Biswas I saw that news in the ALH thread but all it says is the ALH's blades can now be folded but this was ALWAYS the case. The issue the IN had was not that the blades couldn't be folded (they could) but that they couldn't be folded electronically like the Sea King's and THIS was what all but stopped the IN from embarking the ALH on its vessels. I would much rather the ALH replaced the Chetak in its SAR, interdiction and troop (MARCOs) insertion roles aboard IN ships though. But the IN is looking for a lighter (4.5 ton as opposed to the ALH's 5.5 ton) and single engined N-LUH for this role.


Still no news if there N-AH can now fold its wings but until I hear news to the contrary I will assume this is still not possible.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

You should read right, It is not pleasant when people does not listen well when some one is tell them something, I will repeat in points for more clarity ..

1. Preform ace and capability are different terms, Don't mix them up ..
2. Both ASW helos main function is hunt and locate submarine, ASW Dhruv is design to hunt and destroy submarines..
3. ASW Dhruv suits the need as of now when N-MRH deal is underwater ..
4. That recently inducted Squadron is now operating on INS Vikramaditya ..

I am not sure who told you that, But the issue was tail folding unit which was absent in early N-Dhruvs also such design increased weight and during those days engine was a low powered french, This reduce Dhruv payload capability and range, Now the tail folding design is improved ( Light weight ) and implemented and engines are powerful Shakti, Dhruv always had automatic folding blades so does manual ..

Can you provide some source regarding Navy requirement for ULH ?

I'm sorry but this is patently false- claiming the ALH's ASW performance is no par with the S-70B's is entirely incorrect and an exaggeration. The N-ALH is a pretty good product but on pretty much every level the S-70B is superior and a top of the line machine that should be on the billion dollar destroyers of the IN.

The IN's MRH deal is in a bit of no mans land but I suspect it will be sorted under this new govt. The N-ALH was NEVER meant to be a replacement for the Sea Kings in the ASW role, this was always the purview of the N-MRH deal which is one of the priority procurements the IN outlined to the new GoI/Def Min.

The ALH SQD the IN raised recently is purely for SHORE-BASED SAR operations, not for ASW or embarked ops.I'll have a look for news the ALH's folding blade issues have been addressed this would be very pleasant news to me if true.

@Kunal Biswas I saw that news in the ALH thread but all it says is the ALH's blades can now be folded but this was ALWAYS the case. The issue the IN had was not that the blades couldn't be folded (they could) but that they couldn't be folded electronically like the Sea King's and THIS was what all but stopped the IN from embarking the ALH on its vessels. I would much rather the ALH replaced the Chetak in its SAR, interdiction and troop (MARCOs) insertion roles aboard IN ships though. But the IN is looking for a lighter (4.5 ton as opposed to the ALH's 5.5 ton) and single engined N-LUH for this role.

Still no news if there N-AH can now fold its wings but until I hear news to the contrary I will assume this is still not possible.

 

[abingdonboy]

You should read right, It is not pleasant when people does not listen well when some one is tell them something, I will repeat in points for more clarity ..

1. Preform ace and capability are different terms, Don't mix them up ..
2. Both ASW helos main function is hunt and locate submarine, ASW Dhruv is design to hunt and destroy submarines..
3. ASW Dhruv suits the need as of now when N-MRH deal is underwater ..
4. That recently inducted Squadron is now operating on INS Vikramaditya ..

I am not sure who told you that, But the issue was tail folding unit which was absent in early N-Dhruvs also such design increased weight and during those days engine was a low powered french, This reduce Dhruv payload capability and range, Now the tail folding design is improved ( Light weight ) and implemented and engines are powerful Shakti, Dhruv always had automatic folding blades so does manual ..

Can you provide some source regarding Navy requirement for ULH ?

I'm sorry but pretty much all of that is wrong:

N-MRH and N-LUH is ongoing:

http://idrw.org/?p=38533

India issues RFP for 56 naval light utility helicopters - 8/22/2012 - Flight Global



Can you provide a source for INSA 322 operating off the Vikramditya?

 

[Kaalapani]

I'm sorry but pretty much all of that is wrong:

N-MRH and N-LUH is ongoing:

Navy to induct state-of-the-art choppers: senior official | idrw.org

India issues RFP for 56 naval light utility helicopters - 8/22/2012 - Flight Global

No boss Italian mafia wanted to loot India just like they did in case of VVIP choppers.

 

[abingdonboy]

No boss Italian mafia wanted to loot India just like they did in case of VVIP choppers.

What are you talking about??

 

[Kaalapani]

What are you talking about??

We don't need any light helis from global market ours own light heli is getting ready.

Now the defence policy will be to get critical systems with TOT not the whole package.

To CIB is enquirry is going on AIRBUS AIR INDIA deal lots of coffins are gonna come out.

ITz better we Induct Indigenous things even though they are a little bit Inferior.

Italian Mafia is congress party and nehuru dynasty.

 

[SajeevJino]

I'm sorry but pretty much all of that is wrong:

N-MRH and N-LUH is ongoing:

Navy to induct state-of-the-art choppers: senior official | idrw.org

India issues RFP for 56 naval light utility helicopters - 8/22/2012 - Flight Global

So right Now There are Two different kind of Naval Helicopter RFP floated

One is acquire 56 Light Utility Helicopter

another One is 16 maritime multirole Helicopter

In June 2011, New Delhi issued a request for information for a 75-aircraft, naval multi-role helicopter requirement. This called for a large shipborne helicopter in the 9-12.5t class

I think they divide it into Two different Req,.

 

[Warhawk]

The main problem with Naval Dhruv was not with foldable rotors. The major problem was the time for which ALH could be airbone. The Navy demanded that Dhruv must spend 2hrs 20min airbone with its task payload and have an additional reserve for 20mins.

The HAL The Dhruv is simply not capable of meeting this requirement. HAL points out that, "this (requirement) is beyond the inherent payload capacity of any 5.5 tonne class helicopter in the world and can be met with difficulty by a 10-tonne class helicopter, given the Naval specification and weight requirement."
If the Dhruv were flying empty, additional fuel tanks could have given it the ability to meet the Time on Task requirements. But the navy demands that the Dhruv must carry a heavy weapons and sensor payload, which rules out the fitment of extra fuel tanks. The need to carry such weapons and sensor payload put most naval helos, eg the Sea King, in a much higher weight class.

Broadsword: The Indian Navy's Dhruv: falling between two stools

The HAL was ready to go for automatic foldable rotors but that would have increased the weight by a 100Kg. As pointed out the Dhruv did not had a powerful engine back then so HAL was forced not to go for such system.

Also, a correction in my previous post. The Coast Guard was interested Rudra Mk.3 and the Navy was interested in Mk.4 version but both wanted a pintel mounted gun.

 

[abingdonboy]

We don't need any light helis from global market ours own light heli is getting ready.

Now the defence policy will be to get critical systems with TOT not the whole package.

To CIB is enquirry is going on AIRBUS AIR INDIA deal lots of coffins are gonna come out.

ITz better we Induct Indigenous things even though they are a little bit Inferior.

Italian Mafia is congress party and nehuru dynasty.

Don't connect irrlevent dots.


The LUH you talk of from HAL is at least 4-5 years away from being inducted in any meaningful numbers- the IA and IAF can't wait that long as the Cheetah/Cheetal fleet should have been replaced many years ago and now the fleet is running out of spares. A foreign LUH buy is a MUST.


Secondly for the IN, the ALH is too heavy for their 4.5 ton N-LUH requirement and HAL's LUH is not nasalised and would take years to be (years the IN can't afford to wait) not to mention even if HAL could develop a naval version of their LUH it wouldn't meet the basic requirements of the IN that is they want a 2 engined N-LUH for added safety given they will be operating at sea, and HAL's LUH is only single-engined.


I'm sorry but you don't seem to know what you are talking about when ti comes to defence deals so it's better to keep quiet then put out this absurd noise.

 

[abingdonboy]

So right Now There are Two different kind of Naval Helicopter RFP floated

One is acquire 56 Light Utility Helicopter

another One is 16 maritime multirole Helicopter



I think they divide it into Two different Req,.

Right- 56 (with option for more) N-LUH, 16 N-MRH (options for 60 more) and then there is a separate and long-term procurement for 12+ ton helos for the IN's LPD/LHDs for troop transport along the lines of the AW-101 or S-92, RFIs have gone out for that latter but this won't be on the table for another 3-4 years.



The N-LUH requirement is to replace the Chetaks in service.


The N-MRH is to replace the Sea Kings in service.

 

[abingdonboy]

Also, a correction in my previous post. The Coast Guard was interested Rudra Mk.3 and the Navy was interested in Mk.4 version but both wanted a pintel mounted gun.

The pintel mounted MG requirement should be easy to install.