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omaebakabaka

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“clean cities” come at a cost, that cost is ultimately paid for by citizens. cost is either paid for by the urban local bodies or by citizens themselves by way of fines.

in small tourism based countries this cost is usually paid for by govt as an investment into the tourism industry, more clean the tourist places more potential revenues from tourism.

In large western cities, this cost is paid for either by debt or costly public amenities. either way the citizen pays, there by driving up the cost of living.

in India’s case, our USP is low cost of living, hence less money is available to keep the place clean. a section of society do keep their surroundings clean, but it is largely limited to gated communities and within apartment compound. this category of society is usually middle class. so the argument can be made that cleanliness in India will increase as more and more people get into middle class.
I think this has no basis and just a general argument, it costs nothing to not litter and that takes away majority of the dirtiniess in India. Invest in trash collection and processing, it creates a lot of employment in lower income class. India is not as poor as you think, we are the only major economy to display this level of atrociousness when it comes to cleanliness and hygiene. You are assuming that middle class is better than lower class, I actually think middle class is the worst, they just keep their areas clean and behave the same way whether its temples, public roads or even flights.....they litter and show utter disregard as long as its not their property or surroundings. Most of India naturally grows vegetation given space, grass is extremely resilient without any watering. It may not be green but enough to keep erosion in check....India is not a desert and was one of the most fertile in the world, mismanagement and ground water exhaustion and just about everything like sanding the streams, rivers, deforestation and quarrying and what not are directly responsible for lack of natural vegetation these days
 

ezsasa

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I think this has no basis and just a general argument, it costs nothing to not litter and that takes away majority of the dirtiniess in India. Invest in trash collection and processing, it creates a lot of employment in lower income class. India is not as poor as you think, we are the only major economy to display this level of atrociousness when it comes to cleanliness and hygiene. You are assuming that middle class is better than lower class, I actually think middle class is the worst, they just keep their areas clean and behave the same way whether its temples, public roads or even flights.....they litter and show utter disregard as long as its not their property or surroundings. Most of India naturally grows vegetation given space, grass is extremely resilient without any watering. It may not be green but enough to keep erosion in check....India is not a desert and was one of the most fertile in the world, mismanagement and ground water exhaustion and just about everything like sanding the streams, rivers, deforestation and quarrying and what not are directly responsible for lack of natural vegetation these days
-Both theories can be right at the same time in india.
-Trash collection and sorting as an industry was being developed, info will be available in urban affairs ministry website. ultimately it is the local bodies who have to adopt these practices. expecting a country wide change in short period of time is far fetched.
-footfall is a major factor in generation of trash.
-as this pandemic has shown that people don't care about good habits like wearing masks even if there is a threat to life, assuming people will learn and change their habit on throwing trash so easily may not be a valid proposition.
 

omaebakabaka

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-Both theories can be right at the same time in india.
-Trash collection and sorting as an industry was being developed, info will be available in urban affairs ministry website. ultimately it is the local bodies who have to adopt these practices. expecting a country wide change in short period of time is far fetched.
-footfall is a major factor in generation of trash.
-as this pandemic has shown that people don't care about good habits like wearing masks even if there is a threat to life, assuming people will learn and change their habit on throwing trash so easily may not be a valid proposition.
Yes, that is why generational change needs to be planned and must be made part of daily routine in education reform 2021 and also employment oriented physical participation in social volunteering few times a year. Training is what makes reflexes automatic, good training is required in the absence of inherent selfishness in our society
 

sorcerer

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India-Russia nuclear energy cooperation: Rosatom starts construction of Kudankulam NPP Unit 5


Construction of Kudankulam NPP Unit 5 has officially started in India today. Due to global pandemic of COVID 19, through a virtual ceremony, today (June 29, 2021) an official ceremony was held and the first concrete was poured into the foundation plate of the reactor building for Kudankulam NPP Unit 5.

The Kudankulam NPP construction project has been a symbol of close cooperation between India and Russia. And the Russian company Rosatom which has the most advanced nuclear power technologies is playing the most critical role in the NPP.

 

ezsasa

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Saw this tweet about fastag collections and did some digging. Notice how much Toll revenue has increased during Modi Govt, except for reduction due to chinese virus ofcourse.

No wonder Banks don't have a problem financing gadkari's projects. with 20-30 thousand crores annual revenue, banks will be willing to finance 10 times annual revenues . and mind you these numbers are without delhi mumbai expressway which is yet to start.

This is only central govt toll collection, fastag numbers will be much higher since they will be used for state govt toll collections as well.

The total fastag revenue collection in 2018-19 was Rs. 24,396 crores, while that of 2019-20 was Rs. 26,851 crores i.e. around a 10% increase compared to 2018-19.06-Apr-2021
==========
With easing of lockdown in most states, toll collection through #FASTag is reaching the level recorded before the 2nd wave of Covid pandemic. The toll collection touched Rs. 103.54 crore with 63.09 lakh transactions on 01st July 2021.


Screen Shot 2021-07-02 at 7.38.54 PM.png
Screen Shot 2021-07-02 at 7.39.06 PM.png

 

IndianSpiderman

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A lot of India's littering problem stems from the fact that our urban infra is in disrepair. People feel less guilty about littering a place that looks a hundred years old and dusty. Trash begets trash, and so the cycle goes. You just have to contrast Delhi metro and similarly sized, trash lined New York and Paris Metros to see that Indians are perfectly capable of keeping their surroundings clean given the right environment. Thankfully, some of our urban local bodies are waking up to better urban landscape design of late. Central Bangalore's Tender Sure roads are always spic and span and a pedestrian's dream. Let's hope this trend of building aesthetic urban infrastructure is contagious like the metro rail revolution, which took off in city after city.
 

ezsasa

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A lot of India's littering problem stems from the fact that our urban infra is in disrepair. People feel less guilty about littering a place that looks a hundred years old and dusty. Trash begets trash, and so the cycle goes. You just have to contrast Delhi metro and similarly sized, trash lined New York and Paris Metros to see that Indians are perfectly capable of keeping their surroundings clean given the right environment. Thankfully, some of our urban local bodies are waking up to better urban landscape design of late. Central Bangalore's Tender Sure roads are always spic and span and a pedestrian's dream. Let's hope this trend of building aesthetic urban infrastructure is contagious like the metro rail revolution, which took off in city after city.
people shouldn’t worry too much about this issue, it will sort itself out in about two decades. Educating majority of public on this topic is atleast a decade long continuous process. And also redesigning the city streets for maximum cleanliness is a costly project nation wide.

Meanwhile might as well just stick to concerns at local level. catch hold of the corporators of your area if they are not doing the job properly.
 

IndianSpiderman

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people shouldn’t worry too much about this issue, it will sort itself out in about two decades. Educating majority of public on this topic is atleast a decade long continuous process. And also redesigning the city streets for maximum cleanliness is a costly project nation wide.

Meanwhile might as well just stick to concerns at local level. catch hold of the corporators of your area if they are not doing the job properly.
It's not just about improving the aesthetic appeal of our public spaces though. Better urban landscape design will ultimately lead to better lifestyle choices. Apart from boosting tourism and reducing communicable disease load, the building of encroachment and litter free pedestrian zones can help mitigating the country's diabetes epidemic for example. It's an endeavor that'll pay off in the long run.
 

ezsasa

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It's not just about improving the aesthetic appeal of our public spaces though. Better urban landscape design will ultimately lead to better lifestyle choices. Apart from boosting tourism and reducing communicable disease load, the building of encroachment and litter free pedestrian zones can help mitigating the country's diabetes epidemic can be mitigated to a large extent for example. It's an endeavor that'll pay off in the long run.
sure mate, not denying that.

this is one of those issues which is tightly related to grassroots governance, your local commissioner, mayor & corporator has more say in this matter than PM or CM.

I am saying on this topic instead of worrying about entire country, might as well focus on your own residential or office area. on this topic, solution is bottom to top not the other way around.
 

IndianSpiderman

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sure mate, not denying that.

this is one of those issues which is tightly related to grassroots governance, your local commissioner, mayor & corporator has more say in this matter than PM or CM.

I am saying on this topic instead of worrying about entire country, might as well focus on your own residential or office area. on this topic, solution is bottom to top not the other way around.
India's urban bodies need a replicable, centralized reform framework. The reason India's cities have gone into disrepair is because the central government under Nehru decided to tighten its control over ULBs, while village panchayats were given greater autonomy. State governments were given greater control over city management, and the role of mayors and municipalities was reduced. This disempowerment of ULBs was a trend that continued till the 90's, since when it started being reversed (but not enough till now). Ergo, a problem that was created by the center needs to be fixed by it. Niti Aayog's New Urban Policy framework suggests doing just that.
 

ezsasa

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India's urban bodies need a replicable, centralized reform framework. The reason India's cities have gone into disrepair is because the central government under Nehru decided to tighten its control over ULBs, while village panchayats were given greater autonomy. State governments were given greater control over city management, and the role of mayors and municipalities was reduced. This disempowerment of ULBs was a trend that continued till the 90's, since when it started being reversed (but not enough till now). Ergo, a problem that was created by the center needs to be fixed by it. Niti Aayog's New Urban Policy framework suggests doing just that.
Maybe if you have time, pick a city preferably not metros and find out their budgets and revenues. Perhaps there are some clues there why local governments don’t have funds beyond bare necessities.
 

IndianSpiderman

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Maybe if you have time, pick a city preferably not metros and find out their budgets and revenues. Perhaps there are some clues there why local governments don’t have funds beyond bare necessities.
The lion's share of revenue generated by tier 2 and 3 cities goes into state government coffers, which in turn put that money into developing the rest of the state, because that's where the bulk of the voters reside. It's a been a hindrance for urbanization in India.
 

ezsasa

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The lion's share of revenue generated by tier 2 and 3 cities goes into state government coffers, which in turn put that money into developing the rest of the state, because that's where the bulk of the voters reside. It's a been a hindrance for urbanization in India.
you already looked at a municipal corporation balance sheet? Which one?
 

IndianSpiderman

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you already looked at a municipal corporation balance sheet? Which one?
Here you go. 200+ crores collected just by the DTO in a city of 1 million. Just that is enough to build 15 of kms of Tender Sure quality roads every year. Do the math.

 

ezsasa

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Here you go. 200+ crores collected just by the DTO in a city of 1 million. Just that is enough to build 15 of kms of Tender Sure quality roads every year. Do the math.

DTO revenue is state govt revenue, Muncipal corporation revenue looks something like this.
http://www.rangiamb.org.in/index.php
Screen Shot 2021-07-02 at 10.12.05 PM.png


anyways unless you are willing to spend some time and understand the structure and functioning of local muncipal bodies, there is no point carrying on with this discussion.
 

IndianSpiderman

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DTO revenue is state govt revenue, Muncipal corporation revenue looks something like this.
http://www.rangiamb.org.in/index.php
View attachment 97874

anyways unless you are willing to spend some time and understand the structure and functioning of local muncipal bodies, there is no point carrying on with this discussion.
Isn't that what I've been saying all along? :facepalm: Revenue generated from cities needs to be spent in cities. ULBs need full autonomy over the finances generated from the city and how they're spent. That's the only way to speed up urbanization in the country. i.e: Stop pandering to the rural voter base.
 

Rassil Krishnan

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People not having civic sense in general...politeness and courteasy is non existent....this is the biggest differentiator in developed vs other countries and rest like hygiene and cleanliness kinda follows that

Just an example comparing to world as there is not much to compare in man made things especially modern era post independence

Been to South America and Africa too....much arid and poor but feel is different, granted there are some parts literally that one can't comprehend in Africa. Most problems in India is not showing respect for basic laws like zoning and civic sense and respect for public/private property. Any one that knows construction code will know that most things are explicitly specified....I would say its getting a bit better but at this rate its hardly progress....civic sense needs to be prioritized in new 2021 education reform and employment with mandatory participations and what not in keeping stuff clean

Govt can only do so much....most of it is individual responsibility. People litter from car rather than waiting till they go home or someplace to discard...these are mostly educated young and old

Talking about 4 lane highways....India has weird way of driving in laned highways that you will not find in any country....we perfect the art of complicating things...only country where you will see so many trucks with busted tail lights.....all these things are connected and point to lack of accountability as an individual and total disregard for laws, others safety and so on....completely animalistic behavior in a sense....this is not the legacy of Sanatana philosophy which makes a point in every ritual to clean inner and outer bodies symbolically (pranayama and achaman)

Most unclean countries in the world are probably Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, India in the world in my opinion
This is also my feeling sometimes.

India's development seems very dispersed.

There is awesome development in some areas of India while there is chaotic construction,mostly old structures still in other areas.

We must change this asap as it is so called run down feeling in some areas is what some jealous countries used to compare with their own and peddle the fact that india is going nowhere while we actually build alot of world class infrastructure and develop a lot of tech during the pursuit of science and host many industries.
 

Rassil Krishnan

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-Both theories can be right at the same time in india.
-Trash collection and sorting as an industry was being developed, info will be available in urban affairs ministry website. ultimately it is the local bodies who have to adopt these practices. expecting a country wide change in short period of time is far fetched.
-footfall is a major factor in generation of trash.
-as this pandemic has shown that people don't care about good habits like wearing masks even if there is a threat to life, assuming people will learn and change their habit on throwing trash so easily may not be a valid proposition.
Do you have data on the waste management facilities we use in india and upcoming mega developments.
 

omaebakabaka

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Do you have data on the waste management facilities we use in india and upcoming mega developments.
Western model development is unsustainable and counter productive especially infrawise, we need roads and railway for logistics and freight purposes more than passenger commute, for that only better subway and train systems are the only viable option. Waterways is another that is being brought up by Modi govt and its a good idea. Big cars should never be tolerated in India, Japan is a prime example on how to live lives economically and enjoy the less is more philosophy.
 

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