Infrastructure and Energy Sector

[Butter Chicken]

Earth to @Butter Chicken :-

For USA: https://www.deeproot.com/blog/blog-entries/tree-cover-how-does-your-city-measure-up/

Delhi

Paris

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[Okabe Rintarou]

Delhi

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Paris

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Don't know dude, I am not an AI that can pixel correlate and tell you the ratio of green. Especially when I can't tell if you cropped Paris's picture deliberately or not. Tell you what though, I can do a google search. And Delhi and Paris are evenly matched in green cover at around 20%.

My point though was countering your assertion that European and American cities "don't have trees and only have concrete jungles".

My point is simple: Having trees in your city is not bad urban planning. So if you want to continue, tell me why having trees in your city is bad urban planning in your book.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Earth to @Butter Chicken :-

For USA: https://www.deeproot.com/blog/blog-entries/tree-cover-how-does-your-city-measure-up/

All these countries have lesser population density than us.

With our high population and rapidly increasing urbanization, it's inevitable that the cities will get populated extremely fast

I'd rather try to avoid high population density supercities chief.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Don't know dude, I am not an AI that can pixel correlate and tell you the ratio of green. Especially when I can't tell if you cropped Paris's picture deliberately or not. Tell you what though, I can do a google search. And Delhi and Paris are evenly matched in green cover at around 20%.

My point though was countering your assertion that European and American cities "don't have trees and only have concrete jungles".

My point is simple: Having trees in your city is not bad urban planning. So if you want to continue, tell me why having trees in your city is bad urban planning in your book.

Also the fact that west is more or less stabilized in terms of urban growth and their cities are generally depopulating and in some greenery is coming back. In India, poverty is still prevalent and existing farm land will be repurposed to support it and it is happening at a scary speed already. Two different models, different characteristics, different climate conditions, different densities and different timelines of normalization

 

[Suryavanshi]

Cohabitation with trees is possible you just need careful planning that's all.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

All these countries have lesser population density than us.

Noted. The argument was about having trees in cities. Take another example of a country with a similar enough population density to India: Japan.
Tokyo has a 52% tree cover. And its urbane and sophisticated as a city. Centered around public transit as well. Even the denser parts of Tokyo have a tree cover of around 23%, comparable to New York, London or Delhi.

So for the last time: Trees aren't the enemy.

 

[Butter Chicken]

Noted. The argument was about having trees in cities. Take another example of a country with a similar enough population density to India: Japan.
Tokyo has a 52% tree cover. And its urbane and sophisticated as a city. Centered around public transit as well. Even the denser parts of Tokyo have a tree cover of around 23%, comparable to New York, London or Delhi.

So for the last time: Trees aren't the enemy.

This is tokyo with 52% cover.You don't need to be an AI to notice that Delhi is far greener than Tokyo.
Which is more livable?

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

This is tokyo with 52% cover.You don't need to be an AI to notice that Delhi is far greener than Tokyo.
Which is more livable?

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Assuming what you say is true (its not), what do you want us to do? Cut down trees in Delhi till it looks less green? Because according to you, trees don't belong in cities and tree lovers should just go to a village or something.

What will it take to convince you that its possible to have high-density housing, proper pedestrian pathways, good roads and other urban infra while also having enough trees in the same damn city?

I mentioned this before but you completely skipped the point: Urban Heat Island. Trees help with that. Without it, our cities would be screwed in the summer heat. And we'll end up having to use more ACs which will lead to a vicious cycle.

The problem with our infra lies elsewhere, in planning, implementation and basic law and order. And here we are pointlessly discussing about trees as if removing the latter will fix the former. It won't. It'll make it worse though.

 

[notaname]

This is tokyo with 52% cover.You don't need to be an AI to notice that Delhi is far greener than Tokyo.
Which is more livable?

View attachment 172936

Even with no trees our cities will look same as now, there will be no difference as the maintenance is not there you can construct a footpath and also proper lanes but after sometime they need rework and constant maintenance which is not there, I have seen top class infra in start of colonies but with time they look same as normal one's. as after the maintenance end from the company side then it goes to the municipality, nagar palika or Nagar Nigam then you can forget it.

Same with our roads, do you know why Indore always comes top in cleanliness, that is because they charge for it seperately and there is different wing for that specifically with constant maintenance and oversight you remove that, city will again come to same as before.

Whatever gymnastics we do will not change anything till the issue of maintenance is resolved.

And mind you people will not agree to shell out that much money for maintenance of high end infra, in India people fight for even a single rupee be it a millionaire or lower middle class person.

 

[Suryavanshi]

The American model of low density suburbs will destroy this country

hmm
lets see
total population 1,400,000,000
No of families = 1.4 bil / 4 =350,000,000

lets assume everyone lives in 5000 sq feet space
5000 x 350,000,000 = 1,750,000,000,000 sq feet

that is some 162,500 sq km
road network thumb rule 25% of living area.
so some 206,500 sq km.

6% of Indias total land area.

this does not include Offices, Schools, Unis, recreational area just living area etc.

but this is what can be called quality living space

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

hmm
lets see
total population 1,400,000,000
No of families = 1.4 bil / 4 =350,000,000

lets assume everyone lives in 5000 sq feet space
5000 x 350,000,000 = 1,750,000,000,000 sq feet

that is some 162,500 sq km
road network thumb rule 25% of living area.
so some 206,500 sq km.

6% of Indias total land area.

this does not include Offices, Schools, Unis, recreational area just living area etc.

but this is what can be called quality living space

But there are multiple other factors: urban sprawl causes transportation issues. Especially the American style suburbs that makes mass public transit a non-started due to low population density. We need a sweet spot denser than this but not the densest.

One idea is to have "builder floors", basically mid-rise apartments. Middle ground between high rises and independent plots. Not sure about the effectiveness of mass transit in that.

 

[omaebakabaka]

hmm
lets see
total population 1,400,000,000
No of families = 1.4 bil / 4 =350,000,000

lets assume everyone lives in 5000 sq feet space
5000 x 350,000,000 = 1,750,000,000,000 sq feet

that is some 162,500 sq km
road network thumb rule 25% of living area.
so some 206,500 sq km.

6% of Indias total land area.

this does not include Offices, Schools, Unis, recreational area just living area etc.

but this is what can be called quality living space

It does not work like that. Nothing is contiguous, people live where there is water, in modern times electricity, municipal drainage and modern employment means living close to those centers. India's rural living was the closest you can get to that distributed centers but we are not smart enough to structure the employment hubs to sustain that great model anymore. Smart cities are artificial and nothing in that is self sufficient, a bigger pandemic than covid will show their weak points. But it is the best we can do...high speed internet and remote work should force some people in certain industries to move away from cities.

 

[notaname]

And genuinely people we need to resolve our drainage system issues before we worry for the beautification of our cities, currently approximately none of our cities can take a good amount of rain.

We are seeing how they are flooding, and getting choked with water the situation is so bad that district admin needing to close down schools and all other stuff, our cities need basic infra first with better street lights and other things, we have been able to somewhat clear those electricity lines, that took us many years, now need is to focus on basic infra then should we jump to beautification of our cities.


An half hour rain brings our road in knee length deep water, an hour we all know what happens, you can't go out, this is with a medium amount of rain we should atleast have something which can take this in and more then that can be debatable but atleast this should be a bare bone system to handle the rains.

 

[notaname]

hmm
lets see
total population 1,400,000,000
No of families = 1.4 bil / 4 =350,000,000

lets assume everyone lives in 5000 sq feet space
5000 x 350,000,000 = 1,750,000,000,000 sq feet

that is some 162,500 sq km
road network thumb rule 25% of living area.
so some 206,500 sq km.

6% of Indias total land area.

this does not include Offices, Schools, Unis, recreational area just living area etc.

but this is what can be called quality living space

And by converting this to Indian property rates, how many will be able to afford this type of construction? I don't think many even think about going this big with atleast 50 lakh in hand.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

And by converting this to Indian property rates, how many will be able to afford this type of construction? I don't think many even think about going this big with atleast 50 lakh in hand.

Bruh. This is almost 1 Kanal. Forget 50 Lakh, will take at least 2 crore to buy land and build a house on it, without considering urban land price appreciation.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Bruh. This is almost 1 Kanal. Forget 50 Lakh, will take at least 2 crore to buy land and build a house on it, without considering urban land price appreciation.

Real estate is the most unproductive sector bordering on mafia, black money, speculation and so on. Supply chain should be private so they can offer quality employment and create industry demand and so on but all big ventures (builders) over a threshold needs to be a coop model with central or state open to audits. This will enable us to lift slums and other low income neighbor hoods and chance to replan. But again anything govt touches is probably going to stink. Somewhat Chinese model should be imitated without their ugly ways as they did lift massive people out of poverty and cleaned up cities.

 

[notaname]

Bruh. This is almost 1 Kanal. Forget 50 Lakh, will take at least 2 crore to buy land and build a house on it, without considering urban land price appreciation.

I am talking about down payment rest can be taken care through Home loan or something.

 

[Suryavanshi]

It does not work like that. Nothing is contiguous, people live where there is water, in modern times electricity, municipal drainage and modern employment means living close to those centers.

tbh not everyone needs to live in such kind of houses, people can opt to live in apartments but all kind of choices must be available. High density 10+ floor apartments housing society/Independent building , 10 to 5 floor housing society/Independent building, Duplexes etc population will be divided across these.

Ultimately Cities must also serve to protect the individual culture of the city.

 

[notaname]

Real estate is the most unproductive sector bordering on mafia, black money, speculation and so on. Supply chain should be private but all big ventures over a threshold needs to be a coop model with central or state open to audits. This will enable us to lift slums and other low income neighbor hoods and chance to replan. But again anything govt touches is probably going to stink.

They all deal in cash and nothing is written on papers even the correct price of property bought.

And let me share a fact with you, all big builders, colonizers and real state dealers pay hafta to SDM, CM and other government officials so there is no chance of audit like that.

 

[omaebakabaka]

They all deal in cash and nothing is written on papers even the correct price of property bought.

And let me share a fact with you, all big builders, colonizers and real state dealers pay hafta to SDM, CM and other government officials so there is no chance of audit like that.

Bribe giving should be made bigger crime than takers perhaps....if caught seize double the assets. Rot will continue even if its borderline functional. It has been like that for over 1000 years now. Even the arab nomads got civilized while we got worse.