Indo China War Simulation Thread

[Kumaoni]

Yes, well, it can work with a software application or without.
Let us take the case without.
Here all moves are public, if there is no Observer. I move a division from A to B, and the other party has to decide what it means to that party, and react accordingly. The party may move a corresponding Division or a Brigade into a defensive position and watch to see what I do next. Similarly for all moves throughout the non-combatant stage of play.
<more: need to make breakfast, will return in an hour>

Ohhhhhhh. I am stupid. I appreciate your clarification big time.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Ohhhhhhh. I am stupid. I appreciate your clarification big time.

LOL.

You are not stupid. This is just something unfamiliar, that not everybody is familiar with.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Yes, well, it can work with a software application or without.
Let us take the case without.
Here all moves are public, if there is no Observer. I move a division from A to B, and the other party has to decide what it means to that party, and react accordingly. The party may move a corresponding Division or a Brigade into a defensive position and watch to see what I do next. Similarly for all moves throughout the non-combatant stage of play.
<more: need to make breakfast, will return in an hour>

Coming to the combat stage, let us assume I have attacked somebody's division with an armoured brigade. Here it has to be decided if there is an outright win, a partial win or a drawn battle. In all three cases, percentage casualties of personnel and of equipment has to be assessed and awarded.

Now comes the role of an Umpire.

An Umpire will look at this clash, and if it is a low-level, relatively raw game, he will rule that the division wins, it suffers 30% casualties, the brigade suffers 70% casualties, and the brigade is no longer fit for battle, without reinforcements and without restoration of its mechanical and gunnery assets.

That will be done if the game is being played between friends for fun as Sunday afternoon entertainment.

If it is being played, still between friends, as a needle match taking the whole Sunday, then the Umpire will ask the Observer who has been replenishing supplies. He may get the answer that the brigade is well supplied with 'beans, bullets and black oil', while the division has received no supplies for two weeks. In real life, the division will be on the point of surrender. The Umpire will then take a decision the reverse of what the size might seem to indicate, and declare that the division has suffered 70% casualties, the brigade has suffered 30% casualties and the battle is won by the brigade, the division has surrendered and 30% of its strength (usually 15,000, so 30% would be 4,500) are POWs.

THAT is the importance of an Umpire, and THAT is the importance of logistics.

<more>

 

[Joe Shearer]

Coming to the combat stage, let us assume I have attacked somebody's division with an armoured brigade. Here it has to be decided if there is an outright win, a partial win or a drawn battle. In all three cases, percentage casualties of personnel and of equipment has to be assessed and awarded.

Now comes the role of an Umpire.

An Umpire will look at this clash, and if it is a low-level, relatively raw game, he will rule that the division wins, it suffers 30% casualties, the brigade suffers 70% casualties, and the brigade is no longer fit for battle, without reinforcements and without restoration of its mechanical and gunnery assets.

That will be done if the game is being played between friends for fun as Sunday afternoon entertainment.

If it is being played, still between friends, as a needle match taking the whole Sunday, then the Umpire will ask the Observer who has been replenishing supplies. He may get the answer that the brigade is well supplied with 'beans, bullets and black oil', while the division has received no supplies for two weeks. In real life, the division will be on the point of surrender. The Umpire will then take a decision the reverse of what the size might seem to indicate, and declare that the division has suffered 70% casualties, the brigade has suffered 30% casualties and the battle is won by the brigade, the division has surrendered and 30% of its strength (usually 15,000, so 30% would be 4,500) are POWs.

THAT is the importance of an Umpire, and THAT is the importance of logistics.

<more>

The Observer has a bigger role than may be suspected by the unwary.

Here I am, preparing an inland port on the Rann of Kutch, or, say, near Khambat. I take 2 years to build it, advertising it widely as a fisheries port, with adjunct facilities to repair trawlers and smaller mechanised boats. What is my opposing party going to make of it? Nothing. Only what I declare, through press statements and press notes, and only what their human intelligence can pick up by snooping around. Then I make a shield for two sides of the three landward sides, perhaps declaring part a fish-processing zone, with plots laid out and demarcated very properly, and municipal records available that say that these will be handed over after, say, XYZ, a minister in good political standing, inaugurates the scheme. Another part being an industrial estate, with engine making or repair, with motors (for winches, for example), with nets, stuff like that.

In two years time, I have the rudiments of a fully-fledged naval base for corvettes, missile boats, patrol boats and fast craft. All I have to do is to take over the spurious industrial estate overnight, clean it up, and start using it to the fullest.

The opposition may protest hotly when attacked by missile boats in the area, asking where did these boats come from, and where, with their limited range, were they based?

This is where the Observer comes into his own. It is he who has to be informed right from the outset that a naval base is being built with the utmost secrecy, the owners of the constructed sheds in the industrial area are naval repair and maintenance shops, manned by naval personnel in civil clothes and that the proper use will be shown at the time.

This is the biggest role of the Observer, and he has to certify that all this has been done months, quarters ago, and everything is as it should be.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I hope this helps.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Why don't you use CMO for simulation? You can use steam to download it
This is where India will occupy today and where China will occupy tomorrow,
It's too fake
I said India has no ability to attack,
Where do you think India can easily occupy
There is no specific measure
Moreover, the more critical C4ISR capability, electronic warfare capability, wheeled armored vehicles' use of roads for interspersed operations, the firepower assault capability of informationized artillery, and the accompanying support capability of joint logistics
There is no way to measure it specifically,

@Angel of War
For your information.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Present your attack/defense plans limited to theatre-level

• Northern Theatre - Ladakh, Siachen, Himachal Pradesh
• Central Theatre - Himachal Pradesh, Uttrakhand, Nepal, Sikkim
• Eastern Theatre - Bhutan, Arunachal Pradesh, Myanmar (if required)
• Naval Theatre - Bay of Bengal, Indian Ocean, etc.
  
  The reason I am trying to limit within the regions is that otherwise, it will get too complex and difficult to follow.

Does there have to be a response to ALL of these four Theatres? Or only in the one where there has been action?

How much in terms of food, ammunition and fuel do these two brigades in occupation have? From the outset? What comes in subsequently? How? Are we keeping to the norms of 150 MT a day (in active service; while waiting to be attacked, the formations will not fire their weapons, so the consumption can be adjusted to 100 MT per day, or 200 MT for the two formations)?

How is this supply being made, considering that from the road-heads at Sumdo and at Ukdungle, the distance to the passes captured is approximately 25 kms? No roads have been made, or are being planned.

If Mi17 helicopters are to be used, that would take 60 sorties a day (3.5 MT x 60 = 210 MT) to fulfil the requirements of the two brigades. There are enough helicopters in inventory, but how many are being assigned for this task?

 

[Hari Sud]

I have a definite feeling that authors in the Indo-China war simulation thread failed to consider the Himalayan geography while posting ORBAT(s) of Indian and Chinese army disposition in the area. The geography includes average 14,000 feet altitude, 14 narrow passes to cross over, 200 miles width of Himalayan topography. No invading force can cross over in large numbers and survive on the other side of the pass when a highly acclimatized and heavily equipped Indian Army in good strength is waiting to give them a fire reception. Moreover the attacking force need to be at least 4 to 5 times the strength to succeed. That means Chinese would need 600,000 men attacking force to overcome 200,000 (including 50,000 sent in 2020) to overcome Indian Army positions. For that they would have to empty out their east army positions where 80% of their Army is posted opposite Taiwan, Japan, Vietnam. That is physically impossible for Chinese to do.

Imagine the logistic problem they face to keep 600,000 men supplied thru hostile Tibet or Sinkiang. Also much of their hardware and men are not battle tested. If whatever we hear about quality of their hardware, it is an uphill task for them to fight an Indian Army on western war manuals.

But chinese are expert propagandist, hence they will bribe a few or ask Chinese to take Indian names and post non existent scenarios on this website to boast of themselves.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I have a definite feeling that authors in the Indo-China war simulation thread failed to consider the Himalayan geography while posting ORBAT(s) of Indian and Chinese army disposition in the area. The geography includes average 14,000 feet altitude, 14 narrow passes to cross over, 200 miles width of Himalayan topography. No invading force can cross over in large numbers and survive on the other side of the pass when a highly acclimatized and heavily equipped Indian Army in good strength is waiting to give them a fire reception.

It is not clear if the scenario presented, the capture of two mountain passes in Zanda County, has been brought to your kind attention.

The simulated war-game is that the Indian Army has advanced out of its fixed lines of defence, and taken up positions on two mountain passes connected only by air - rotary wing aircraft only - far from any artillery cover, dependent only on the zeal and enthusiasm of our IAF pilots for support.

Moreover the attacking force need to be at least 4 to 5 times the strength to succeed. That means Chinese would need 600,000 men attacking force to overcome 200,000 (including 50,000 sent in 2020) to overcome Indian Army positions.

Wrong tree? Or perhaps wrong icicle?

Approximately 10,000 jawans are perched on two remote passes; to eject them, two Group Armies* and three or four Special Forces regiments are being deployed from within Theatre Command resources, and with some additional help by way of aircraft additions from Theatre Commands other than the Southern and Central.

* A Group Army is a composite element of between 45,000 to 60,000 soldiers, with four or five composite arms brigades as well as a lot of integrated, organic air and artillery resources, besides other good things. There is therefore an arithmetic satisfaction of the 5:1 ratio needed for attack in mountain terrain. This is without the additional Special Forces regiments required, over and above the one integral to a Group Army.

For that they would have to empty out their east army positions where 80% of their Army is posted opposite Taiwan, Japan, Vietnam. That is physically impossible for Chinese to do.

Please see above.

Imagine the logistic problem they face to keep 600,000 men supplied thru hostile Tibet or Sinkiang.

Are you referring to the pitched guerrilla battles the PLA GF faced in the rear echelons, during their recent confrontations with our Army at Galwan and at Pangong Tso? Let the Chinese then hope and pray that that stiff resistance will not be repeated.

Also much of their hardware and men are not battle tested. If whatever we hear about quality of their hardware, it is an uphill task for them to fight an Indian Army on western war manuals.

It has to be admitted that this is a major point of salience.

Quite clearly it is better to fight without light tanks and self-propelled 122 mm and 155 mm artillery, than to try and use those even though they have not been battle tested. Definitely a situation where less is more.

But chinese are expert propagandist, hence they will bribe a few or ask Chinese to take Indian names and post non existent scenarios on this website to boast of themselves.

?
Does not a posted scenario become an existent scenario? Or will this be Schroedinger's Scenario?

As one of those named to undertake a Chinese riposte, although a most thoroughly approved manoeuvre has already been presented, and found most acceptable, it is time to confess that the name under which one of these nefarious plans is being presented belongs to a man who had far too much to do with shifty orientals with epicanthic folds, and with their equine steeds of breeding age.

Yes, the matter is murky.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Does there have to be a response to ALL of these four Theatres? Or only in the one where there has been action?

How much in terms of food, ammunition and fuel do these two brigades in occupation have? From the outset? What comes in subsequently? How? Are we keeping to the norms of 150 MT a day (in active service; while waiting to be attacked, the formations will not fire their weapons, so the consumption can be adjusted to 100 MT per day, or 200 MT for the two formations)?

How is this supply being made, considering that from the road-heads at Sumdo and at Ukdungle, the distance to the passes captured is approximately 25 kms? No roads have been made, or are being planned.

If Mi17 helicopters are to be used, that would take 60 sorties a day (3.5 MT x 60 = 210 MT) to fulfil the requirements of the two brigades. There are enough helicopters in inventory, but how many are being assigned for this task?

That does not account for the fuel consumption by the helicopters, @7.5 l/km. The distances from the nearest road-head are 25 and 30 kms respectively.

 

[Rommel]

The Chinese will not be able to operate jets deep into Indian territory as chinese pilots are not trained enough for long range missions unlike the IAF pilots

 

[Rommel]

Indian Special Forces are also capable of starting insurgencies in Tibet

 

[Rommel]

Hiding Anti air missiles in the valleys would also be beneficial to counter Chinese air supremacy

 

[Rommel]

Main problem will be the fact that China holds the high ground and it will be easier for China to orchestrate offensives

 

[Rommel]

Another fact is that China has strategic bombers so to counter this threat the IAF fighters will not be able to provide air support which is not the case with the PLA Air force

 

[Rommel]

The only air support would be given by attack helicopters which are in low numbers in comparison to the PLA

 

[Rommel]

Defense in Arunachal will be challenging as the Chinese will throw everything they have on us

 

[Rommel]

Supposing we bomb down all road passes in Arunachal after a few Chinese troops cross over, we can surround and defeat them

 

[Rommel]

The Chinese outnumber us in everything the best tactic we can use is to evade and then surprise them by flanking them

 

[DumbPilot]

@Joe Shearer @Kumaoni @Love Charger @mist_consecutive @Angel of War

Would be better to make something like a trello board with perms where the umpire and observer and the participants can work, and do the actual simulation on something like

Military Map - App to Plan your Mission

App to visualize and plan military exercises and missions. Draw, save, export and exchange military map overlays and common operational pictures (COP).

www.map.army

, save and upload the unit positions/etc. on a publicly shared hosting resource(google drive? mega?) so that everyone can download it.

For contour maps, we can probably use old Soviet 1:50,000 or 1:1,00,000 maps that I think are available online if we want to. Otherwise the default map.army maps if they work, they have excellent contour maps too:

For those who want to read up on wargames: