Indo China War Simulation Thread

[Joe Shearer]

@Joe Shearer I've prepared the ORBAT for Indian Army deployment along the northern frontier

View attachment 153723View attachment 153725View attachment 153724

Can I add to it? You have seen my chart, but that's with changes. There's one with the original place locations (as you have shown it here). Only it will have to wait until I have finished my presentation.

 

[Angel of War]

Can I add to it?

Definitely

 

[Joe Shearer]

Definitely

Perhaps you could use this to cross-check.

COMMAND

Corps

Armoured Div.

Armoured Bde.

RAPID Div.

Mechanised Infantry Div.

Mechanised Infantry Bde.

Infantry Div.

Light Infantry Div.

Mountain Div.

Air Defence Div.

Air Defence Bde.

Artillery Div.

Artillery Bde.

Aviation Group

Engineering Bde.

NORTHERN UDHAMPUR

XIV Corps Leh

3rd Infantry Div.

8th Mtn. Div.

XV Corps Srinagar

19th Infantry Div.

28th Mtn. Div.

XVI Corps Nagrota

10th Infantry Div.

25th Infantry Div.

39th Infantry Div.

10th Arty. Bde.

WESTERN

II Corps Ambala

1st Arm. Div. Patiala

14th RAPID Div.

22nd Infantry Div. Meerut

40th Artillery Div. Ambala

16th Arm. Bde. Mamun (Pathankot) Desert Fox 1

612th AD Bde.

474th Eng. Bde

IX Corps Yol

26th Infantry Div.Jammu

29th Infantry Div.Pathankot

2nd Arm. Bde. Pathankot

3rd Arm. Bde. Jammu

XI Corps Jalandhar

7th Infantry Div. FIROZPUR

9th Infantry Div. MEERUT

15th Infantry Div. AMRITSAR

23rd Arm. Bde Amritsar

55th Mech. Inf. Bde Beas

SOUTH-WESTERN

I Corps Mathura

4th Infantry Div., Allahabad

6th Mountain Div.

33rd Arm. Div., Hissar

42nd Artillery Division, Alwar

14th (I) Arm. Bde Bathinda

X Corps Bhatinda

16th Infantry Div. SRI GANGANAGAR

18th RAPID KOTA

24TH RAPID BIKANER

6th (I) Arm. Bde Suratgarh

615th Air Def. Bde.

471st Eng. Bde.

14th (I) Arm. Bde Bathinda

SOUTHERN COMMAND

XII Corps Jodhpur

11th Infantry Div AHMEDABAD.

12th RAPID JODHPUR

75th (I) Inf. Bde Bhuj

4th Arm. Bde Bathinda

340th Mech. Inf. Bde.

XXI Corps Bhopal

31st Arm. Div. JHANSI

36th RAPID SAGAR

54th Infantry Div. HYDERABAD

41st Artillery Div. Pune

EASTERN

III Corps Dimapur

2nd Mtn. Div.

56th Mtn. Div.

57th Mtn. Div.

IV Corps Tezpur

5th Mtn. Div.

21st Mtn. Div.

71st Mtn. Div

XXXIII Corps Siliguri

17th Mtn. Div.

20th Mtn. Div.

27th Mtn. Div.

 

[Angel of War]

Perhaps you could use this to cross-check.

COMMAND

Corps

Armoured Div.

Armoured Bde.

RAPID Div.

Mechanised Infantry Div.

Mechanised Infantry Bde.

Infantry Div.

Light Infantry Div.

Mountain Div.

Air Defence Div.

Air Defence Bde.

Artillery Div.

Artillery Bde.

Aviation Group

Engineering Bde.

NORTHERN UDHAMPUR

XIV Corps Leh

3rd Infantry Div.

8th Mtn. Div.

XV Corps Srinagar

19th Infantry Div.

28th Mtn. Div.

XVI Corps Nagrota

10th Infantry Div.

25th Infantry Div.

39th Infantry Div.

10th Arty. Bde.

WESTERN

II Corps Ambala

1st Arm. Div. Patiala

14th RAPID Div.

22nd Infantry Div. Meerut

40th Artillery Div. Ambala

16th Arm. Bde. Mamun (Pathankot) Desert Fox 1

612th AD Bde.

474th Eng. Bde

IX Corps Yol

26th Infantry Div.Jammu

29th Infantry Div.Pathankot

2nd Arm. Bde. Pathankot

3rd Arm. Bde. Jammu

XI Corps Jalandhar

7th Infantry Div. FIROZPUR

9th Infantry Div. MEERUT

15th Infantry Div. AMRITSAR

23rd Arm. Bde Amritsar

55th Mech. Inf. Bde Beas

SOUTH-WESTERN

I Corps Mathura

4th Infantry Div., Allahabad

6th Mountain Div.

33rd Arm. Div., Hissar

42nd Artillery Division, Alwar

14th (I) Arm. Bde Bathinda

X Corps Bhatinda

16th Infantry Div. SRI GANGANAGAR

18th RAPID KOTA

24TH RAPID BIKANER

6th (I) Arm. Bde Suratgarh

615th Air Def. Bde.

471st Eng. Bde.

14th (I) Arm. Bde Bathinda

SOUTHERN COMMAND

XII Corps Jodhpur

11th Infantry Div AHMEDABAD.

12th RAPID JODHPUR

75th (I) Inf. Bde Bhuj

4th Arm. Bde Bathinda

340th Mech. Inf. Bde.

XXI Corps Bhopal

31st Arm. Div. JHANSI

36th RAPID SAGAR

54th Infantry Div. HYDERABAD

41st Artillery Div. Pune

EASTERN

III Corps Dimapur

2nd Mtn. Div.

56th Mtn. Div.

57th Mtn. Div.

IV Corps Tezpur

5th Mtn. Div.

21st Mtn. Div.

71st Mtn. Div

XXXIII Corps Siliguri

17th Mtn. Div.

20th Mtn. Div.

27th Mtn. Div.

What do I have to cross check ?

 

[Angel of War]

Perhaps you could use this to cross-check.

COMMAND

Corps

Armoured Div.

Armoured Bde.

RAPID Div.

Mechanised Infantry Div.

Mechanised Infantry Bde.

Infantry Div.

Light Infantry Div.

Mountain Div.

Air Defence Div.

Air Defence Bde.

Artillery Div.

Artillery Bde.

Aviation Group

Engineering Bde.

NORTHERN UDHAMPUR

XIV Corps Leh

3rd Infantry Div.

8th Mtn. Div.

XV Corps Srinagar

19th Infantry Div.

28th Mtn. Div.

XVI Corps Nagrota

10th Infantry Div.

25th Infantry Div.

39th Infantry Div.

10th Arty. Bde.

WESTERN

II Corps Ambala

1st Arm. Div. Patiala

14th RAPID Div.

22nd Infantry Div. Meerut

40th Artillery Div. Ambala

16th Arm. Bde. Mamun (Pathankot) Desert Fox 1

612th AD Bde.

474th Eng. Bde

IX Corps Yol

26th Infantry Div.Jammu

29th Infantry Div.Pathankot

2nd Arm. Bde. Pathankot

3rd Arm. Bde. Jammu

XI Corps Jalandhar

7th Infantry Div. FIROZPUR

9th Infantry Div. MEERUT

15th Infantry Div. AMRITSAR

23rd Arm. Bde Amritsar

55th Mech. Inf. Bde Beas

SOUTH-WESTERN

I Corps Mathura

4th Infantry Div., Allahabad

6th Mountain Div.

33rd Arm. Div., Hissar

42nd Artillery Division, Alwar

14th (I) Arm. Bde Bathinda

X Corps Bhatinda

16th Infantry Div. SRI GANGANAGAR

18th RAPID KOTA

24TH RAPID BIKANER

6th (I) Arm. Bde Suratgarh

615th Air Def. Bde.

471st Eng. Bde.

14th (I) Arm. Bde Bathinda

SOUTHERN COMMAND

XII Corps Jodhpur

11th Infantry Div AHMEDABAD.

12th RAPID JODHPUR

75th (I) Inf. Bde Bhuj

4th Arm. Bde Bathinda

340th Mech. Inf. Bde.

XXI Corps Bhopal

31st Arm. Div. JHANSI

36th RAPID SAGAR

54th Infantry Div. HYDERABAD

41st Artillery Div. Pune

EASTERN

III Corps Dimapur

2nd Mtn. Div.

56th Mtn. Div.

57th Mtn. Div.

IV Corps Tezpur

5th Mtn. Div.

21st Mtn. Div.

71st Mtn. Div

XXXIII Corps Siliguri

17th Mtn. Div.

20th Mtn. Div.

27th Mtn. Div.

Sir this misses out on some formations . It needs to be edited

 

[mokoman]

Where do you think India can easily occupy

whats wrong with below move , marked by @mist_consecutive

about 2000 sq km , can be a counter move by India to occupy it , if china for ex makes move in eastern ladakh.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Sir this misses out on some formations . It needs to be edited

No, no, just use it to see if your own listing is OK. Don't worry about this; I am planning to use yours, but for the simulation that is started, I will use only a drastically altered ORBAT for the western frontier only.

 

[Joe Shearer]

What is Joint Logistics Support Capability
Not some drones, unmanned vehicles, those are just some very simple explorations,
Not even mules and yaks, don't see the PLA riding a donkey on patrol and assume that logistics depend on donkeys

For example, if a tank is broken, you can find the nearest construction vehicle and supply vehicle through the logistics network system, and automatically generate a repair plan
Why did Russia abandon so many tanks in Ukraine, because there is no real joint logistics support capability within the BTG, there is no way to quickly repair and replenish
For example, the transfer of armored troops, usually he needs to carry his own parts, spare vehicles, and even ammunition and fuel
But not anymore. Through the Joint Assurance Center, these problems can be solved,
As a result, the mobilization ability of the troops has been greatly improved. It used to take a month for an armored brigade to transfer from Beijing to Tibet. Now it may only take a week, or even 4-5 days.

Of course, this is just a very simple aspect of joint logistics support. The real joint logistics support is very complicated.

This goes one step beyond the complexity I have assumed in my counter-attack plan, but definitely makes sense.

It is difficult to assess or to plan the kind of replacement parts to be carried by these mobile repair units without knowing the Mean Time Between Failures and similar details, that will be known only to operators.

As you said, joint logistics support as you have defined it will be very complicated.

 

[WARREN SS]

Excellent, that is actually the only way forward.

Few questions -

• Explain the Chinese attack ORBAT. How much strength is China willing to dedicate to this attack. Give a brief summary of the equipment to be used.
  
  
• The attack axis you marked, is pretty close to the Indian army bases at Nyoma (circled orange), which also has an ALG. Last year, Nyoma based a complete armored brigade and 6th Mountain Division. That is a significant amount of strength.
  
  
• Since the Nyoma-Demchok road axis is open, and ALG can be used to fly in quick-reinforcements, a lot of counter-force can be pushed toward Demchok (marked green arrows). Do you have any plan of cutting that road off?
  
  
• IMO, your second (southern) attack axis is through 6,000m high mountains, it won't be effective. Try to find valleys/passes.

Battle Plan

Chinese ORBAT

14th Army Group With 2 Divisions

• 18th Armored Brigade
• 31st Mechanized Infantry Brigade
• 32nd Motorized Infantry Brigade
• 40th Motorized Infantry Brigade
• 42nd Mechanized Infantry Brigade
• Artillery Brigade
• Anti-Aircraft Brigade
• 11th Army Aviation Regiment
• Communications Regiment
• 17th Engineer Regiment
• NBC Defense Regiment
• 86th Pontoon Bridge Regiment.

15 the Airborne forces With one Division

10,000 men, with seven classifications: pathfinders; reconnaissance; infantry; artillery; signals; engineers, and; chemical warfare. Information about China’s 16th Airborne Corps was never made available by China. It has now emerged that in May 2017; China’s 15th Airborne Corps has been reorganized; re-designated as the ‘Corps of PLA Airborne Troops’ with units of the former Divisions split into Brigades. Two regiment-level units are integrated with the Academy of Airborne Troops to form a New unit






Major Equipment in PLA Inventory

Df-10A

PLZ 05

PCL-181

Type-8 And ZTL 11

Z-10

Caig wing loong

Ziyan UAV.



CH-901

To be Contnd.....

 

[Love Charger]

Battle Plan

Chinese ORBAT

14th Army Group With 2 Divisions

• 18th Armored Brigade
• 31st Mechanized Infantry Brigade
• 32nd Motorized Infantry Brigade
• 40th Motorized Infantry Brigade
• 42nd Mechanized Infantry Brigade
• Artillery Brigade
• Anti-Aircraft Brigade
• 11th Army Aviation Regiment
• Communications Regiment
• 17th Engineer Regiment
• NBC Defense Regiment
• 86th Pontoon Bridge Regiment.

15 the Airborne forces With one Division

10,000 men, with seven classifications: pathfinders; reconnaissance; infantry; artillery; signals; engineers, and; chemical warfare. Information about China’s 16th Airborne Corps was never made available by China. It has now emerged that in May 2017; China’s 15th Airborne Corps has been reorganized; re-designated as the ‘Corps of PLA Airborne Troops’ with units of the former Divisions split into Brigades. Two regiment-level units are integrated with the Academy of Airborne Troops to form a New unit






Major Equipment in PLA Inventory

View attachment 153842


Df-10A
View attachment 153841


PLZ 05

View attachment 153843

PCL-181

View attachment 153844

Type-8 And ZTL 11
View attachment 153836

View attachment 153839



Z-10

View attachment 153833

Caig wing loong

View attachment 153834


Ziyan UAV.



CH-901

View attachment 153835


To be Contnd.....

Now this is getting fun

 

[WARREN SS]

Perhaps you could use this to cross-check.

COMMAND

Corps

Armoured Div.

Armoured Bde.

RAPID Div.

Mechanised Infantry Div.

Mechanised Infantry Bde.

Infantry Div.

Light Infantry Div.

Mountain Div.

Air Defence Div.

Air Defence Bde.

Artillery Div.

Artillery Bde.

Aviation Group

Engineering Bde.

NORTHERN UDHAMPUR

XIV Corps Leh

3rd Infantry Div.

8th Mtn. Div.

XV Corps Srinagar

19th Infantry Div.

28th Mtn. Div.

XVI Corps Nagrota

10th Infantry Div.

25th Infantry Div.

39th Infantry Div.

10th Arty. Bde.

WESTERN

II Corps Ambala

1st Arm. Div. Patiala

14th RAPID Div.

22nd Infantry Div. Meerut

40th Artillery Div. Ambala

16th Arm. Bde. Mamun (Pathankot) Desert Fox 1

612th AD Bde.

474th Eng. Bde

IX Corps Yol

26th Infantry Div.Jammu

29th Infantry Div.Pathankot

2nd Arm. Bde. Pathankot

3rd Arm. Bde. Jammu

XI Corps Jalandhar

7th Infantry Div. FIROZPUR

9th Infantry Div. MEERUT

15th Infantry Div. AMRITSAR

23rd Arm. Bde Amritsar

55th Mech. Inf. Bde Beas

SOUTH-WESTERN

I Corps Mathura

4th Infantry Div., Allahabad

6th Mountain Div.

33rd Arm. Div., Hissar

42nd Artillery Division, Alwar

14th (I) Arm. Bde Bathinda

X Corps Bhatinda

16th Infantry Div. SRI GANGANAGAR

18th RAPID KOTA

24TH RAPID BIKANER

6th (I) Arm. Bde Suratgarh

615th Air Def. Bde.

471st Eng. Bde.

14th (I) Arm. Bde Bathinda

SOUTHERN COMMAND

XII Corps Jodhpur

11th Infantry Div AHMEDABAD.

12th RAPID JODHPUR

75th (I) Inf. Bde Bhuj

4th Arm. Bde Bathinda

340th Mech. Inf. Bde.

XXI Corps Bhopal

31st Arm. Div. JHANSI

36th RAPID SAGAR

54th Infantry Div. HYDERABAD

41st Artillery Div. Pune

EASTERN

III Corps Dimapur

2nd Mtn. Div.

56th Mtn. Div.

57th Mtn. Div.

IV Corps Tezpur

5th Mtn. Div.

21st Mtn. Div.

71st Mtn. Div

XXXIII Corps Siliguri

17th Mtn. Div.

20th Mtn. Div.

27th Mtn. Div.

Combine PLAGF ORBAT

 

[Joe Shearer]

Combine PLAGF ORBAT

View attachment 153847View attachment 153848View attachment 153849View attachment 153850

Don't go away; I'm on an overseas call.

 

[WARREN SS]

Battle Plan

Chinese ORBAT

14th Army Group With 2 Divisions

• 18th Armored Brigade
• 31st Mechanized Infantry Brigade
• 32nd Motorized Infantry Brigade
• 40th Motorized Infantry Brigade
• 42nd Mechanized Infantry Brigade
• Artillery Brigade
• Anti-Aircraft Brigade
• 11th Army Aviation Regiment
• Communications Regiment
• 17th Engineer Regiment
• NBC Defense Regiment
• 86th Pontoon Bridge Regiment.

15 the Airborne forces With one Division

10,000 men, with seven classifications: pathfinders; reconnaissance; infantry; artillery; signals; engineers, and; chemical warfare. Information about China’s 16th Airborne Corps was never made available by China. It has now emerged that in May 2017; China’s 15th Airborne Corps has been reorganized; re-designated as the ‘Corps of PLA Airborne Troops’ with units of the former Divisions split into Brigades. Two regiment-level units are integrated with the Academy of Airborne Troops to form a New unit






Major Equipment in PLA Inventory

View attachment 153842


Df-10A
View attachment 153841


PLZ 05

View attachment 153843

PCL-181

View attachment 153844

Type-8 And ZTL 11
View attachment 153836

View attachment 153839



Z-10

View attachment 153833

Caig wing loong

View attachment 153834


Ziyan UAV.



CH-901

View attachment 153835


To be Continued.....

Correction
Instead of 14 the group army Its

People's Liberation Army 76th Group Army

That Initiate the Attack With
People's Liberation Army Air Force Airborne Corps
It was reorganized and renamed from 15th Airborne Corps

 

[Joe Shearer]

Correction
Instead of 14 the group army Its

People's Liberation Army 76th Group Army

That Initiate the Attack With
People's Liberation Army Air Force Airborne Corps
It was reorganized and renamed from 15th Airborne Corps

This is so useful. I have been concentrating on the logistics of the situation, that is, looking at the intrusion, and its weight and heft, taking a preliminary call about what to do about it, then working out what would be required, in terms of military bases, roads, air defence capabilities, and then, on the other side, what strength would need to be deployed.

There is no longer any question of considering infantry, infantry ground transport, local fire support, artillery, armour, air support separately, with the current merger of these elements into composite units containing all these elements, so the task becomes quite easy in a way, quite difficult in other ways.

Instead, it is interesting to do the logistics, both the supply problem, as well as the distance traversed problem, and see what realistic results are.

 

[Angel of War]

Posting some background situation for the aerial scenario :-

In a detailed paper in the Small Wars Journal, titled “Assessment of the Growth of PLAAF Capabilities,” Daniel Urchik highlights that as of 2017, the PLAAF had 736 “strong 4th Generation platforms” and was increasing numbers at an average rate of 70 aircraft per year, with constant upgrades in technology, electronic warfare and weapons systems.Based on this estimate, the PLAAF’s current inventory of fourth-generation platforms could have crossed 850, or about 40 squadrons. One can project that this figure will go up to approximately 50 squadrons of fourth-generation fighters by 2025. Taking into account the possibility of the operational induction of the early fifth-generation J-20 over the next decade (200, or 10 squadrons as a conservative figure)

 

[Angel of War]

In 2030, a comparison between the PLAAF and the IAF is likely to be as follows. As part of its offensive inventory, the PLAAF could have up to 50 squadrons of “strong fourth-generation fighters,” 10 squadrons of modest fifth-generation J-20-class aircraft, and five to six squadrons of the H-6 long-range bombers with significant stand-off capability (cruise missiles with ranges of more than 1500 km. The IAF’s air-launched Brahmos cruise missile has a maximum range of 500 km). In a ‘hot war’ scenario, the anticipated airfield-receiving capacity on the TAR could double from the existing six airfields, given the speed at which Chinese infrastructure is being built on the Tibetan plateau. There is a Harvard report suggesting that the PLAAF would allocate and train barely 15 percent of its fourth- and fifth-generation fighters for operations in an India scenario could be contested. Based on multiple studies, it is reasonable to assume that there is currently an even balance, which could gradually shift in favour of the PLAAF should the IAF falter on its various acquisition plans

 

[Kumaoni]

Few questions:
1. Will china only attack Ladakh or will it take on Arunachal Pradesh simultaneously?
2. Is India willing to risk a counter offensive into Chinese territory?
3. Will this be a limited war or will we see the use of air-force?
4. How will China attack well entrenched Indian Posts in the Ladakh?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Few questions:
1. Will china only attack Ladakh or will it take on Arunachal Pradesh simultaneously?
2. Is India willing to risk a counter offensive into Chinese territory?
3. Will this be a limited war or will we see the use of air-force?
4. How will China attack well entrenched Indian Posts in the Ladakh?

You realise this is a simulation thread.
It depends on the Observer, who sets the rules and allows the players to play.
Usually, those rules are set tightly or loosely, depending on the level of seriousness involved.
These queries, therefore, have to be handled by the Observer for this simulation. Tag him and ask him.

 

[Kumaoni]

You realise this is a simulation thread.
It depends on the Observer, who sets the rules and allows the players to play.
Usually, those rules are set tightly or loosely, depending on the level of seriousness involved.
These queries, therefore, have to be handled by the Observer for this simulation. Tag him and ask him.

My apologies. I am new to Simulation threads. May you explain how this works?

 

[Joe Shearer]

My apologies. I am new to Simulation threads. May you explain how this works?

Yes, well, it can work with a software application or without.
Let us take the case without.
Here all moves are public, if there is no Observer. I move a division from A to B, and the other party has to decide what it means to that party, and react accordingly. The party may move a corresponding Division or a Brigade into a defensive position and watch to see what I do next. Similarly for all moves throughout the non-combatant stage of play.
<more: need to make breakfast, will return in an hour>