Indo-China War Rhetoric

[RAM]

Tension grows between China and India as Asia slips into cold war?

From Island of GAN TO ARUNACHEL-Tension grows between China and India as Asia slips into cold war??

You have to go to a tropical paradise to find the latest front in the brewing cold war between China and India.On the southernmost tip of the Maldives lies the island of Gan, a tiny patch of coconut palms and powdery white beaches. It was here that Britain set up a secret naval base in 1941, building airstrips and vast fuel tanks to support its fleet in the Indian Ocean during the Second World War.The RAF then used it as a Cold War outpost until 1976, when the British withdrew and the officers’ quarters were converted into a resort called Equator Village.Now, 33 years later, India is preparing to reopen the base to station surveillance aircraft, helicopters, and possibly ships, to monitor Chinese vessels in the Indian Ocean. Under a deal signed in August, India is also installing radar across the Maldives, linked to its coastal command.

Island of GAN COMES UNDER ADDU TOLL ISLAND GP-southermost tip

The plan is also being seen as the latest move in a low-level, but escalating struggle for economic and military supremacy between Asia’s two emerging giants. This week the flashpoint is their disputed Himalayan border, as China protests over the Dalai Lama’s visit to a northeastern Indian state that it claims. But they are also competing over naval control of the Indian Ocean, resources and markets in Africa, strategic footholds in Asia — and are even in a race for the Moon.“It doesn’t have the same proportions as the Cold War,” said Alexander Neill, head of the Asia programme at the Royal United Services Institute, a research centre. “But there is potential for this to spiral out of control. Allies of both countries need to think carefully about the consequences of this rivalry.”Relations were cordial for the first decade after India’s independence in 1947, and the founding of communist China in 1949. They quickly deteriorated, however, when the Dalai Lama escaped from Tibet in 1959 and was granted refuge in India. China then humiliated India in 1962 when its troops briefly occupied the northeastern state of Arunachal Pradesh and seized the region of Aksai Chin. Beijing also began to provide aid and weapons to Pakistan — India’s rival.

In the past decade, the frost had been thawing as bilateral trade expanded from $3 billion in 2000 to $51 billion last year — the two even began joint military exercises.Yet this year, things have taken a sudden turn for the worse as China seeks to project its economic and military clout, and a more assertive India tries to respond. Militarily, India frets over China’s recent efforts to improve infrastructure around its frontiers and force a compromise on the disputed border. It also worries about China’s plans to develop a “blue water” navy capable of protecting trade routes through distant waters, including the Indian Ocean.India feels particularly threatened by China’s “string of pearls” strategy, building ports in Burma, Sri Lanka and Pakistan that could be used by its navy. Beijing is concerned that a nuclear deal finalised last year between India and the US, was designed as a counterbalance to China. The deal not only lifted a ban on India buying US nuclear supplies, it also opened the door for India to take part in joint military exercises and buy billions of dollars of US weaponry.

“Since 1962, I think Chinese strategists have basically decided that they can deal with India on their own terms,” said Evan Feigenbaum of the Council on Foreign Relations, an American research centre. “But when you introduce the United States into that equation, it introduces all kinds of uncertainties. I think we’re in for a period of India-China tension.”

Economically, the competition is most intense in Africa, where India and China are vying for resources and markets in a rerun of the “Scramble for Africa” by colonial powers.China began courting African nations a decade ago, offering investment and trade in exchange for soft loans and development aid with no political conditions attached. But India is catching up fast, pledging $5 billion in credit and hundreds of millions of dollars in financial help at an inaugural India-Africa summit last year. At stake is not just access to industrial raw materials, but support for India’s bid for a permanent seat on the UN Security Council, which China opposes. India is also trying to make up lost ground in South, South-East and Central Asia.China has been trying to negotiate a friendship treaty with Nepal to replace the one that has tied the country to India since 1950. Beijing’s growing clout in Bangladesh was highlighted last week when armed police closed a photo exhibition organised by Tibetan activists. India has poured $1 billion in aid into Afghanistan, while a Chinese company has invested $3 billion in a giant copper mine in the country. Technologically, the contest is playing out in a 21st-century Asian version of the Cold War space race. India launched its first unmanned lunar mission, Chandrayaan-1, last year and plans to land a man on the Moon by 2020. China sent its first taikonaut into space in 2003, and plans its first manned lunar mission by 2024.

Yet the most fundamental source of rivalry is also the most abstract: the relative merits of Indian-style democracy and Chinese-style autocracy. Although neither promotes its political system, they are seen as rival models for the developing world. And if this is the “Asian Century”, as many agree, then it will be defined to a large extent by that ideological contest.


Tension grows between China and India as Asia slips into cold war - Times Online

 

[qilaotou]

China or even Tibet was not direct neighbour to India. To the North you had Nepal, Sikhim, Bhutan, to the Northwest Kashmir and Northeast Assamese. It was under British rule Brits engineered a larger empire for present India. I really don't understand why you guys try to ignore the facts that Chinese dynasty annexed Tibet a few hundred years ago, exactly the same way as you acquired Kashmir in modern times. Again, South Tibet or AP is part of Tibet. What gives you people higher moral ground to accuse Chinese occupation of Tibet? In 1911 Chinese Qing court was overthrown and all provinces claimed short time independece including Tibet in 1913. The McMahone line was fabricated with Tibetan lamas in 1914 but rejected by Chinese central government. In 1951 PLA entered Tibet according to agreement with Tibetan local government to reform the slave system. The historic bond and relation of China to Tibet are much stronger than India to Kashmir and AP.

The other thing I don't understand about you guys is your rhetoric on China's interactions to other Southern countries. Does China or other country need your permission to develop a bilateral relationship? You seemed to be having unsolved problems with most of your neighbours. I believe that your real enemy is yourself, not your neighbours.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Get your facts straight Kashmir was always a part of India before there was a Pakistan, Tibet was never a part of China your analogy is completely wrong.

 

[RAM]

Many Chinese think India greatest security threat after US: new poll

A rare opinion poll conducted in China has revealed that India is seen as the greatest security threat to its citizens after the US with 40 per cent of those who took the survey saying India poses a direct security challenge. Among countries with a contiguous border with China, India has been named the biggest worry. Only five per cent of respondents feel that Russia is the greatest security threat to China.

The survey, which was conducted by Sydney-based Lowy Institute of Foreign Policy this September, is based on an opinion poll in urban and rural communities of China. While majority respondents placed environmental issues like climate change and water and food shortages as the biggest threats to China, 50 per cent of the people surveyed felt that the US posed a security threat to China. Though 60 per cent of the respondents did not think India was a security challenge, India was rated as the second country, along with Japan, that was a potential security threat.To a question on which country would pose the greatest security challenge to China in the next ten years, 14 per cent respondents named India and Japan as the most likely after US. Almost one-third of respondents (34 per cent) felt that the US would pose the greatest threat within one decade.

“Of the five countries (including Russia and North Korea), the United States was considered the greatest threat to China’s security by one-third (34%) of Chinese adults: 14% said Japan and India posed the greatest threat,” states the survey

The survey reveals that Chinese men are twice as likely to say that India posed a threat — 44 per cent of men said so against 24 per cent of the women polled. Also, more educated respondents, citizens who had a university or college education, felt that India and Japan pose a security threat to China. And 43 per cent of respondents with degrees felt that India was a threat against 25 per cent respondents who had only junior secondary school education.
The survey, which is based on responses by over 1,200 people spread across 661 cities in China, also revealed that close to half its citizens (48 per cent) believe that one of the greatest threats to China is a “possible aggression from its neighbours”. The biggest apprehension that the Chinese (46 per cent) have against the US is that the country would support separatists. At the same time, 43 per cent fear that the US will take the side of Taiwan in case of a cross-strait dispute.

Many Chinese think India greatest security threat after US: new poll

 

[Rage]

China or even Tibet was not direct neighbour to India. To the North you had Nepal, Sikhim, Bhutan, to the Northwest Kashmir and Northeast Assamese. It was under British rule Brits engineered a larger empire for present India. I really don't understand why you guys try to ignore the facts that Chinese dynasty annexed Tibet a few hundred years ago, exactly the same way as you acquired Kashmir in modern times. Again, South Tibet or AP is part of Tibet. What gives you people higher moral ground to accuse Chinese occupation of Tibet? In 1911 Chinese Qing court was overthrown and all provinces claimed short time independece including Tibet in 1913. The McMahone line was fabricated with Tibetan lamas in 1914 but rejected by Chinese central government. In 1951 PLA entered Tibet according to agreement with Tibetan local government to reform the slave system. The historic bond and relation of China to Tibet are much stronger than India to Kashmir and AP.

The other thing I don't understand about you guys is your rhetoric on China's interactions to other Southern countries. Does China or other country need your permission to develop a bilateral relationship? You seemed to be having unsolved problems with most of your neighbours. I believe that your real enemy is yourself, not your neighbours.

We've discussed this ad infinitum: the annexation under the Mongol Khaganate, that continuation of the Mongo-Turkic empire and foundation of the Mongol state that itself occupied and subjugated China- referred to as the 'Yuan dynasty' in true self-panegyrizing, incorporating and irredentist fashion, does not translate into a legitmization of active CCP rule over Tibet, nor ever will. Particularly given Tibet's far longer history of millennial self-rule, 44 year occupation of large tracts of Chinese territory itself, recognition as a sovereign state by several countries prior to CCP-occupation, and cultural, political and religious dissonance from from and distinctness to the Chinese.



That is CCP twaddle that none but the Chinese themselves believe. The rest of the world inspired by reapolitik, for now.

 

[Rudran]

nice thread 'singh ji' plenty of scope to discuss,
1. They are learning fatal tricks from pakistan. they are preparing for a direct proxy war against Indian on all possible fronts as pakistan is serving its another master right now.
2. Indians should prepare for low level conflicts with china, they are coming very openly for that.
3. I have reservations on full scale war.
4. Interestingly, change in chines strategy explains that they do not trust Pakistan.

Wait and See what is going to happen in china. Prosperity without freedom means anarchy

 

[sayareakd]

China or even Tibet was not direct neighbour to India. To the North you had Nepal, Sikhim, Bhutan, to the Northwest Kashmir and Northeast Assamese. It was under British rule Brits engineered a larger empire for present India. I really don't understand why you guys try to ignore the facts that Chinese dynasty annexed Tibet a few hundred years ago, exactly the same way as you acquired Kashmir in modern times. Again, South Tibet or AP is part of Tibet. What gives you people higher moral ground to accuse Chinese occupation of Tibet? In 1911 Chinese Qing court was overthrown and all provinces claimed short time independece including Tibet in 1913. The McMahone line was fabricated with Tibetan lamas in 1914 but rejected by Chinese central government. In 1951 PLA entered Tibet according to agreement with Tibetan local government to reform the slave system.

This means that from 1911-13 to 1951 China did not have any claim over Tibet and Tibet in that time period was an independent country.

 

[johnq]

In 1951 PLA entered Tibet according to agreement with Tibetan local government to reform the slave system. The historic bond and relation of China to Tibet are much stronger than India to Kashmir and AP.

You have been reading too much Chinese propaganda. In reality the only slavery that Tibet has ever seen is the imperialist Chinese Communist government treating the Tibetan people as slaves. The whole idea of slavery in Tibet has been invented by the Chinese Communist government to justify their rule of Tibet. And you think the Tibetan local government welcomed the PLA? Are you crazy? Is that why the Dalai Lama and the entire Tibetan local government fled to India?

There is no historic bond between China and Tibet other than that between an imperialist regime and its tributary: In other words between a master and a slave. The only difference is that in the past the Chinese kingdoms just collected tribute (tax) from the Tibetan government and otherwise left them alone, and now the Chinese Communist government oppresses the Tibetan people (controlling every aspect of their lives). But even the imperialist-tributary relationship was not there for a long period prior to 1951, and Tibet was a free country when the Chinese army invaded Tibet.

Otherwise also, if you look at the peaceful Tibetan Buddhist culture and the oppressive Chinese imperialist culture, they are totally different. The Tibetans believe in giving up the ego to become enlightened, while the Chinese worship the ego, and as a result oppress other people.

 

[qilaotou]

You have been reading too much Chinese propaganda. In reality the only slavery that Tibet has ever seen is the imperialist Chinese Communist government treating the Tibetan people as slaves. The whole idea of slavery in Tibet has been invented by the Chinese Communist government to justify their rule of Tibet. And you think the Tibetan local government welcomed the PLA? Are you crazy? Is that why the Dalai Lama and the entire Tibetan local government fled to India?

There is no historic bond between China and Tibet other than that between an imperialist regime and its tributary: In other words between a master and a slave. The only difference is that in the past the Chinese kingdoms just collected tribute (tax) from the Tibetan government and otherwise left them alone, and now the Chinese Communist government oppresses the Tibetan people (controlling every aspect of their lives). But even the imperialist-tributary relationship was not there for a long period prior to 1951, and Tibet was a free country when the Chinese army invaded Tibet.

Otherwise also, if you look at the peaceful Tibetan Buddhist culture and the oppressive Chinese imperialist culture, they are totally different. The Tibetans believe in giving up the ego to become enlightened, while the Chinese worship the ego, and as a result oppress other people.

You need to grow up and get some education before you make statements on Tibetan issues.

 

[qilaotou]

This means that from 1911-13 to 1951 China did not have any claim over Tibet and Tibet in that time period was an independent country.

Autonomy under administration by the Nationalists. Do you Indians believe that you can change history the way you want? If not why would most Indians are so childish on Tibetan history?

 

[johnq]

You need to grow up and get some education before you make statements on Tibetan issues.

LOL You are the one childishly believing everything written in Chinese propaganda history books to be true. This is the same government that has massacred its own people in Tianamen Square, and yet you seem to believe that they are incapable of lying. Either you are a Chinese government propaganda agent or really gullible. You need to re-educate yourself about how your Chinese government has oppressed the Tibetan people by reading some internationally recognized history books. The sad thing is that any book you buy in China has been "edited" by the Chinese government to back the Chinese propaganda version of the history. I would suggest buying the history books from outside China (and in English), unless you are a Chinese propaganda agent (in which case it's too late for you LOL ).

 

[nimo_cn]

LOL You are the one childishly believing everything written in Chinese propaganda history books to be true. This is the same government that has massacred its own people in Tianamen Square, and yet you seem to believe that they are incapable of lying. Either you are a Chinese government propaganda agent or really gullible. You need to re-educate yourself about how your Chinese government has oppressed the Tibetan people by reading some internationally recognized history books. The sad thing is that any book you buy in China has been "edited" by the Chinese government to back the Chinese propaganda version of the history. I would suggest buying the history books from outside China (and in English), unless you are a Chinese propaganda agent (in which case it's too late for you LOL ).

So finally we all become Chinese propaganda agents, why am I not surprised to hear that?
In order to let some indians understand the legitimacy of China's sovereignty over Tibet, i would like to illustrate it in another way. So let us see what the so-called "ROC" (republic of China) says about Tibet, i think you will not controvert ROC's opinions on these issues, right? According to you, ROC is a democracy, there should be no propaganda.

ROC has seen Tibet as an integral part of China since it was established, even after it was relocated to taiwan, it still claims Tibet.

Look at the map of ROC

So by your logic, taiwan becomes a Chinese propaganda agent? Well done, johnq!

 

[johnq]

Nice try, but that claim of Taiwan is a result of de-facto annexation of Tibet by the People's Republic of China. And just because Taiwan says so, does not justify the Chinese takeover of Tibet.

But since we are talking about using historical reasons to justify the Chinese takeover of Tibet, let's see why this logic is flawed.

Prior to the Chinese empire's takeover of Tibet, Tibet and China were ruled by Mongolia. So then, going by China's current logic, Mongolia can claim all of China and Tibet as a part of Mongolia (since Mongolia was the "original historical empire.". This is why China's logic is flawed when it tries to use history to justify its takeover and oppression of the Tibetan people.

Because it's also a fact that Tibet had declared independence from China and wanted nothing to do with China when the PLA marched into Tibet; and also that the Tibetan people (and Tibetan government) did not want to join China. In fact Tibet at that point had been an independent nation for several decades. The Chinese army was killing and harassing the Tibetan people. And this is why the entire Tibetan government fled to India after the Chinese invasion.

 

[Koji]

China was really never under direct rulership by Mongols. As soon as Kublai Kahn took over and unified China once more, the other Khanates rejected him and saw him as being too "sino-fied." It can only be said that the Yuan dynasty (a Chinese name he took to replace his Mongolian one) was ruled by a Mongolian but never really by the Mongol empire.

 

[johnq]

China was really never under direct rulership by Mongols.

Same can be said about Tibet when it was later ruled by China. Tibet was only a tributary of China, which meant that China just collected tribute (tax) from the Tibetan government, but otherwise left the Tibetan people alone. But even this stopped when the Tibetan government declared independence, and was independent for the next several decades until PLA's bloody invasion of Tibet.

But just as Mongolia cannot use its historic empire as a reason to ask China to become its slave again, China cannot justify the takeover of Tibet by using its historic empire.

 

[nimo_cn]

Nice try, but that claim of Taiwan is a result of de-facto annexation of Tibet by the People's Republic of China. And just because Taiwan says so, does not justify the Chinese takeover of Tibet.

Oh, really? ROC only began to claim Tibet after CPC liberated Tibet?
Well done again, johnq!

Let me ask you,
Is ROC's(taiwan) claim on Tibet propaganda?
Who is more qualified to talk about the history of China, you or Chinese?

If you dont blieve history written by PRC, fine, you can read history written by ROC, but let me tell you in advance, you will get the same result, which is China's sovereignty over Tibet is historically and polically legitimate.

The situation here is Chinese from both PRC and ROC recoginse Tibet as an integral part of China. Only people who is not Chinese like you who is indian denies this fact.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

China was really never under direct rulership by Mongols. As soon as Kublai Kahn took over and unified China once more, the other Khanates rejected him and saw him as being too "sino-fied."

What the freak are you smoking? The other Khanates never ruled China proper, only Kublai Khan did and when the other Khnates disagree with his decisions, they've got slaughtered!

As wrong as it was for the Chinese to claim the Mongol heritage, there is absolutely no question that the Great Khan ruled over them all!

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Nice try, but that claim of Taiwan is a result of de-facto annexation of Tibet by the People's Republic of China. And just because Taiwan says so, does not justify the Chinese takeover of Tibet.

But since we are talking about using historical reasons to justify the Chinese takeover of Tibet, let's see why this logic is flawed.

Prior to the Chinese empire's takeover of Tibet, Tibet and China were ruled by Mongolia. So then, going by China's current logic, Mongolia can claim all of China and Tibet as a part of Mongolia (since Mongolia was the "original historical empire.". This is why China's logic is flawed when it tries to use history to justify its takeover and oppression of the Tibetan people.

Because it's also a fact that Tibet had declared independence from China and wanted nothing to do with China when the PLA marched into Tibet; and also that the Tibetan people (and Tibetan government) did not want to join China. In fact Tibet at that point had been an independent nation for several decades. The Chinese army was killing and harassing the Tibetan people. And this is why the entire Tibetan government fled to India after the Chinese invasion.

Sorry but nice try, your Chinese history sucks!

 

[Armand2REP]

Let me ask you,
Is ROC's(taiwan) claim on Tibet propaganda?
Who is more qualified to talk about the history of China, you or Chinese?

ROC's claims over greater China are a political football meant to protect them. The second they drop claims over the mainland can be considered a unilateral declaration of independence and I believe you know that.

If you dont blieve history written by PRC, fine, you can read history written by ROC, but let me tell you in advance, you will get the same result, which is China's sovereignty over Tibet is historically and polically legitimate.

One only needs to review "actual" history. During the Chinese Civil War Tibet gained independence from Chinese control. For 36 years they existed as a free state until the 1950 invasion. If China always had sovereignty over Tibet, why was an invasion needed? Why was the exile of the Dalai Lama necessary?

The situation here is Chinese from both PRC and ROC recoginse Tibet as an integral part of China. Only people who is not Chinese like you who is indian denies this fact.

How could it be integral when you just sent little miltary expeditions and then abandonded it for 36 years? Your hstiroical claims are based on the Mongol conquests, Chinese are not sucessors to the Mongols.

 

[johnq]

What the freak are you smoking? The other Khanates never ruled China proper, only Kublai Khan did and when the other Khnates disagree with his decisions, they've got slaughtered!

As wrong as it was for the Chinese to claim the Mongol heritage, there is absolutely no question that the Great Khan ruled over them all!

Just as Mongolia cannot claim China as its slave because Mongolia once ruled China, China's claim over Tibet using historical precedent is flawed also for the very same reason: Since Tibet was a free country (from 1912 to 1949) when China invaded it, and the Tibetan people did not want to be a part of China (and they still don't).