Indo-China War Rhetoric

[Officer of Engineers]

Vinood, extremely good and extremely tough questions, However, I will point to your fallacy ... that you're assuming China is in the driver seat instead of reacting to situations.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

#2) China has ambitions of conflict and is testing India's response.

Of all your posting, only this point is correct. Hell, even Canada took the US to court over border and fishing issues.

In fact, let me put this way. The PRC is out-lawyering India.

 

[Vinod2070]

Vinood, extremely good and extremely tough questions, However, I will point to your fallacy ... that you're assuming China is in the driver seat instead of reacting to situations.

Well, from here it does look like China is playing the driver and India is mostly reacting.

May be the view changes from the other side or from a higher perch.

 

[johnee]

Of all your posting, only this point is correct. Hell, even Canada took the US to court over border and fishing issues.

In fact, let me put this way. The PRC is out-lawyering India.

Thank you, sir. I am glad you find something I post worth reading.

As I said, there could be two scenarios, either China is weak and posturing of strength towards India to keep it at bay or China is testing India.
Either way, India must respond and respond firmly. What according to you should this response be?
According to me, India should not tolerate any IB intrusion(shooting down the intruder) and take seriously LAC intrusion(warn twice and then imprison the intruder if it happens third time). These may sound simplistic but my view is that China is playing pshycological games with India, and India must do the same with China.

 

[johnee]

Well, from here it does look like China is playing the driver and India is mostly reacting.

May be the view changes from the other side or from a higher perch.

Would love to hear from someone sitting on a higher perch about Chinese moves.

Great point, Vinod.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

As I said, there could be two scenarios, either China is weak and posturing of strength towards India to keep it at bay or China is testing India.

Seriously? My read is that both the Indian and Chinese patrols just want to keep warm.

Neither side is serious, either at the lowly patrol level nor up to the Staff Level visits.

The "violations" (if you must term as such, then the Indians violated the Chinese border as much as India claims China has done) are moved markers. No Indian patrol has ever caught a Chinese soldier on supposed Indian soil and vice versa. The ONLY proof the Chinese were there was a moved rock.

This is a game and one both sides know the rules to, ie, don't be there when I come to move the rocks and I won't be there when you come to move the rocks.

Either way, India must respond and respond firmly. What according to you should this response be?

Well, 40 years ago, the PLA left the "Little Red Book." Your soldiers left spam as in oversalted pork. I thought your army won that one.

According to me, India should not tolerate any IB intrusion(shooting down the intruder) and take seriously LAC intrusion(warn twice and then imprison the intruder if it happens third time). These may sound simplistic but my view is that China is playing pshycological games with India, and India must do the same with China.

My advice for the Indian Army is to build a spa on the Chinese side of the LAC. You can guarrentee no Chinese soldier or police would cross the LAC for a dump in an outhouse.

 

[johnee]

Seriously? My read is that both the Indian and Chinese patrols just want to keep warm.

Neither side is serious, either at the lowly patrol level nor up to the Staff Level visits.

The "violations" (if you must term as such, then the Indians violated the Chinese border as much as India claims China has done) are moved markers. No Indian patrol has ever caught a Chinese soldier on supposed Indian soil and vice versa. The ONLY proof the Chinese were there was a moved rock.

This is a game and one both sides know the rules to, ie, don't be there when I come to move the rocks and I won't be there when you come to move the rocks.

Well, 40 years ago, the PLA left the "Little Red Book." Your soldiers left spam as in oversalted pork. I thought your army won that one.

My advice for the Indian Army is to build a spa on the Chinese side of the LAC. You can guarrentee no Chinese soldier or police would cross the LAC for a dump in an outhouse.

Hmm...so how would you explain the recent allegation of Chinese crossing the IB and warning the locals? Is that also a part of the 'game'?

Sir, IMO, the Indian side seem to know the 'rules of the game' and follow them diligently, while China seems to be setting them as it goes along.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Hmm...so how would you explain the recent allegation of Chinese crossing the IB and warning the locals? Is that also a part of the 'game'?

Sir, IMO, the Indian side seem to know the 'rules of the game' and follow them diligently, while China seems to be setting them as it goes along.

Not saying this was done and not saying this was known but my rangers got Warsaw Pact cap badges ... and I had to replace a few berets in my time.

Hint: Never trade for Soviet/Russian army vodka.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Seriously, people, the only power in charge is Mother Nature.

Both the Indian and Chinese patrols are long gone before there can be any trouble and the only way this can be done is through mutual understanding. I will move the markers but only when I'm not there ... and these are times when I'm not there.

And ... vice versa.

 

[johnee]

Not saying this was done and not saying this was known but my rangers got Warsaw Pact cap badges ... and I had to replace a few berets in my time.

Hint: Never trade for Soviet/Russian army vodka.

Everything you said, flew over my head. Kindly explain, sir. Are you saying that the reports of Chinese crossing IB are false?

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Yes, for one easily expainable reason. You don't have an international border with China in the disputed areas. That's why they're disputed.

 

[johnee]

Yes, for one easily expainable reason. You don't have an international border with China in the disputed areas. That's why they're disputed.

Ladakh DM claims Chinese intrusion | Deccan Chronicle

An excerpt from above:

Chinese troops entered a part of Ladakh in Jammu and Kashmir in January this year and retreated after threatening shepherds to vacate the area or face the consequences, according to the district magistrate, Mr Ajeet Kumar Sahu.
Mr Sahu conveyed this to the divisional commissioner of Jammu and Kashmir on January 4, saying this was brought to his knowledge by shepherds and villagers living close to the international border.

So, my doubt is: is all border between India and China disputed? Is crossing internationally accepted IB between Ladakh and China also part of the game?
There are also reports that the 'incursions' have increased recently. Why is this so?

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Ladakh DM claims Chinese intrusion | Deccan Chronicle

An excerpt from above:



So, my doubt is: is all border between India and China disputed? Is crossing internationally accepted IB between Ladakh and China also part of the game?
There are also reports that the 'incursions' have increased recently. Why is this so?

Read closely. The people whom you are relying on to identify the IB has no respect for the IB and crosses it at whim

 

[johnee]

Read closely. The people whom you are relying on to identify the IB has no respect for the IB and crosses it at whim

Point taken. Sir, you didnt answer my other question? Why do you think the 'incursion' have increased in recent past? Any specific reason?


BTW, are the shepherds being relied on to identify the IB or are they residing by the IB. IMO, its the later. IB is recognised independent of shepherds(correct me if I am wrong).

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Point taken. Sir, you didnt answer my other question? Why do you think the 'incursion' have increased in recent past? Any specific reason?

Actually, they've gone down in the last year since the Tibet and Xinijiang crisis. This being said, the height of these incursions was in 1986-1987 when it came close to war. 6 Indian brigades moved into the area versus 2 PLA regiments being flown in.

This being all said, the question must be asked, why hasn't an Indian patrol ever met a Chinese patrol? The only reason I can see is that their respective HQs are determined to avoid each other while filing their over-the-top expense accounts.

BTW, are the shepherds being relied on to identify the IB or are they residing by the IB. IMO, its the later. IB is recognised independent of shepherds(correct me if I am wrong).

If you've got a compass and a map (or a GPS), you know exactly where you are.

The question is, do you rely on the shepards on telling you the Chinese move the markers instead of the shepards themselves?

 

[johnee]

After LAC incursions, China now violates Intl Border in Ladakh


An excerpt from above link:

The Chinese troops entered nearly 1.5 kilometres into the Indian territory near Mount Gya, recognised as International border by India and China, and painted the boulders and rocks with red spray paint, official sources said.

The incursions were reported from the area, generally referred in the Chumar sector in east of Leh, and painted "China" in Cantonese with Red spray paint all over the boulders and rocks, they said.

The 22,420 ft Mount Gya, also known as "fair princess of snow" by Army is located at the tri-junction of Ladakh in Jammu and Kashmir, Spiti in Himachal Pradesh, and Tibet. Its boundary was marked during the British era and regarded as International border by the two countries.

So its International border and not just LAC.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

This was the helo incident? Not a foot patrol?

Sorry, I have absolutely no clue whether these guys were drunk or on drugs. An incursion is one thing but dropping canned food ... well, it's not intimating anyone.

That the violation occured is beyond doubt ... but why? I have absolutely no idea ... whether their HQ ordered them to cross just to drop can dog foot ... or something more sinister.

 

[Blademaster]

My take is that PLA is probing InA's defenses and noting the response time and the patrol times and judging InA's capabilities with these provocations.

 

[Soham]

My take is that PLA is probing InA's defenses and noting the response time and the patrol times and judging InA's capabilities with these provocations.

What purpose would that serve ? Wouldn't defences be better judged by UAVs and the kind ?
Their frequent incursions will just reduce the reaction times.

 

[roma]

This being all said, the question must be asked, why hasn't an Indian patrol ever met a Chinese patrol? The only reason I can see is that their respective HQs are determined to avoid each other while filing their over-the-top expense accounts.

I think officer has summarised it there : The chinese are careful to avoid a clash while make these incursions . ´
My take is that they are sour puss about not having the border areas and they know it is a matter of time before india keeps improving all the while on its defence capabilities.
So the sour puss thing to do is these incursions.
It's a way of signalling their displeasure while not really being able to do anything much about it.