Indigenous Vikrant class Aircraft Carrier (IAC)

India Super Power

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Doubt it. Navy is a massive capital expenditure service. It requires port infrastructure, fuel supply, fleet size, etc. all costing massive expense. For the next 10 years, Pak is out as they become another Somalia and becoming great at piracy operations trying to smuggle drugs into India. Pakistan in no way can afford to maintain even a minimum deterrence against the IN for now. The wild card is how far China will continue to pursue this arming Pakistan strategy and break global rules on technology transfer. Pakistan to maintain deterrence will focus on increasing the size of their nuclear arsenal and delivery capabilities.
On IN, believe it or not, it has to play a role in SCS as evidenced by the naval treaty signed with Vietnam. The need to be part of a US led naval theater in SCS and malacca choke points is a 100% reality now. No way to sugar coat or hide this anymore. No one is going to openly talk about it.But, every activity or purchase of IN points to establishing a greater Interop with the US Navy and the West. In return, the IN knows the PLAN will play a role in Indian Ocean. Hence, the new agalagea island base in Mauritius etc. So the naval Cold War is on. People just don’t want to accept it.
Cold between whom usa and China?
 

Rajaraja Chola

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Now, that is a very controversial statement 'but for the airforce they will acquire tech keeping Pak in mind and less with PLAAF in mind'

To the contrary I believe air power will play a key role in deciding the outcome of an Sino - Indian conflict across the Himalayas. The altitude factor cannot be an limiting factor as modern combat aircraft can easily fly 50,000 to 60,000 feet above sea level.

IIn fact many military experts had said that it was an historic blunder not to use air power in 1962.The course of the conflict would have been different had the IAF been allowed to bomb the PLA. I believe we had more modern aircraft than the PLAAF at that time.

The Pakistan Air Force is crippled as far as operating and acquiring new, modern Western origin planes are concerned. Their fortunes are now hopelessly tied to the Chinese. An indisputable fact is that our Rafale is better than the JF17(by a wide margin) and the J10C. Only the J20 can muddy the waters. Again China would be a fool to supply its best combat aircraft to Islamabad. Because the CIA and the Pentagon undoubtedly have many agents in the Pak military. The technology of the J20 will be leaked to the Americans. Just as the F16 technologies were leaked to the Chinese(this is highly likely).

The situation can change if Washington supplies the latest versions of the F16 to Islamabad. That would be an very, very unfriendly act and probably would change the way New Delhi views the US. Another unlikely scenario is if the PAF acquires modern European combat aircraft like the Typhoon.

We have to keep in mind another reality. Pakistan is an relatively narrow strip of territory. How far is the farthest point in Pakistan from the Indian border. Probably about 600 km?.Most targets in Pakistan can be hit easily by our Brahmos missiles which will reach 800 km range capability soon. Once our transformed Nirbhay missile (ITCM) is perfected and mass produced, it will be a much cheaper alternative.

We don't need the Air Force to even engage massively in the bombing of Pakistan. Other options are available.

On the other hand an vital war objective in any large war against China would be the early destruction of supply lines coming from mainland China. The rail and road lines. And all airfields need to be destroyed. We need to prevent resupply and replenishment of PLA forces in both Tibet and Xinjiang. Though missiles can be used to take out the targets it may not be accurate bombing because the targets may be more than a 1000km from the border.Also presently we lack long range land attack cruise missiles( > 1000 km range) in sufficient numbers.I believe the use of the Air Force will be unavoidable.

In fact we should establish air superiority over the PLAAF by creating an technological edge. Not an very difficult task. Chinese aerospace technology is still behind American and European aerospace technology levels . So till our indigenous aerospace technology matures and equals the standards of the developed countries, some amount of imports seem unavoidable.
It's not an easy task using missiles with respect to Pakistan. Every missile launch by India will be taken as excuse by Paks to launch their strategic missiles as they will feign ignorance about the kind of missiles launched by India. If you had noticed, Pakistan have very very less conventional SSM compared to India. Other than their BMs, all they have is Babur and Raad, even they are nuclear capable as claimed by them.

India on the other hand has a thousands of Brahmos deployed, Nirbhay would be deployed in hundreds soon enough. But India would take the need to attack Pakistan from the skies most likely , not to trigger them to fire missiles. China it's a different ballgame. Our Brahmos can literally flatten their entire military infra in Tibet and Xinjiang. And they would take days to move thier rocket forces from the east to the western part. And they can still do greater damage. Infact more than Pakistan, wrt China, India can have no two measures and go for the full if it wants to prevail in a conflict. China won't.
 

vishnugupt

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hope they don't buy this F-18
Look at this forum, Many Gyani here relentlessly support import in one way or other without being paid kickback. Now imagine how far UN Generals will go for import who actually get kickback ??

For Gyaanis it's work in a same way as a Dhimmi Hindus seriously wishing for Ram Mandir but voting for Congress. ( मन बढ़िया लेकिन कर्म गड़िया )

Death of aerospace or defence industries has been one foremost goal of UN armed forces since independence.

So sit tight brace for impact.
 

India Super Power

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Look at this forum, Many Gyani here relentlessly support import in one way or other without being paid kickback. Now imagine how far UN Generals will go for import who actually get kickback ??

For Gyaanis it's work in a same way as a Dhimmi Hindus seriously wishing for Ram Mandir but voting for Congress. ( मन बढ़िया लेकिन कर्म गड़िया )

Death of aerospace or defence industries has been one foremost goal of UN armed forces since independence.

So sit tight brace for impact.
I respect your views sir and u know it
But in this case do we have anyother option right now except import
Yes in past things could have been made better for present but seeing current scenario is it right not to import
 

vishnugupt

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I respect your views sir and u know it
But in this case do we have anyother option right now except import
Yes in past things could have been made better for present but seeing current scenario is it right not to import
I have never opposed import blindly. There are few Import which is necessary and excellent.

We have missed many opportunities in the past so we are now in desperate situation if we don't correct it now then we will surely in mesh in future.

How much we should buy... We are insufficient in allmost all areas. Now correcting one problem will increase other problems because Money is an important factor.

IAF used to say we will become some sort of invincible if we buy 36 rafale. Now new chief say we will become invincible if we buy 114 jets. But history tells us we has been became more and more weak and dependent on others while learnt nothing despite of tall claims of ToT. We need to swallow bitter pill and build ourselves.
 

Chinmoy

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The lifter size is too small for F18, replacing mig29 with F18, IN has to rebuild the lifter, that is a big project, it could lag AC deployment forever
Lift size of Vikrant is 16*11 MTR approx. What made u think F/A-18 is not going to fit?
 

vishnugupt

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I respect your views sir and u know it
But in this case do we have anyother option right now except import
Yes in past things could have been made better for present but seeing current scenario is it right not to import
To be more specific about options except import.

MRFA is not going to deliver before 2028-30 What are they offering today?? Nothing. Why so hurry like MRFA is coming tomorrow?

Today we need urgent upgrade of Su-30mki, logistics, electronic warfare most important long range guided weapons which India have almost negligible.

We need to speed up things which are already cleared the trials or about to clear like artillery, Drones. Cruise missiles, Air defense systems etc.

Better buy 36 more Rafales through GtG deal or say 50-60 then focus on MWF and TEDBF.

Armed forces need to support tomorrow (MWF, TEDBF) and buy something for today. But contrary to this, Armed forces want spend all money something which will come by 2028-30 and sit idle for whole next decade.

Evaluating weapons purely on technical basis by Armed forces is wrong and mischievous malpractice. Logistics and availability should play major part during procurement. Take an example of 72k Sig riffles. Even if this is true that OFB produced ammunition is causing problems then had Generals so naive to point out this major flaw?? Are we going to import a basic necessity of war like bullets ?? Even Ukrainian are not that stupid. Suppose if China attacked imported ammunition depot then what next?? Ofcourse, Begging to America.

144 artillery, 6 Apache, 100 Korean guns. These fancy piece will vaporize in first strike then you have to run in all directions.

Please understand depending on others now days is more dangerous than having enemy at your gate. Better start digging trenches from today rather than believing or waiting for others.
 

johnj

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Doubt it. Navy is a massive capital expenditure service. It requires port infrastructure, fuel supply, fleet size, etc. all costing massive expense. For the next 10 years, Pak is out as they become another Somalia and becoming great at piracy operations trying to smuggle drugs into India. Pakistan in no way can afford to maintain even a minimum deterrence against the IN for now. The wild card is how far China will continue to pursue this arming Pakistan strategy and break global rules on technology transfer. Pakistan to maintain deterrence will focus on increasing the size of their nuclear arsenal and delivery capabilities.
On IN, believe it or not, it has to play a role in SCS as evidenced by the naval treaty signed with Vietnam. The need to be part of a US led naval theater in SCS and malacca choke points is a 100% reality now. No way to sugar coat or hide this anymore. No one is going to openly talk about it.But, every activity or purchase of IN points to establishing a greater Interop with the US Navy and the West. In return, the IN knows the PLAN will play a role in Indian Ocean. Hence, the new agalagea island base in Mauritius etc. So the naval Cold War is on. People just don’t want to accept it.
Doubt on what. 1 , 2 or 3, may be 3, in the case of China, you are half true, about CSC and IOR.
In the case of China, they already in IOR and Indian Ocean and India also showing presence in SCS.
In the case of expenditure, only 13%~15% of defence budget goes to IN, too little compared to others.
In the case of PN, their biggest purchase were 8 AIP SSK, bigger deal than J10. US, Saudi and China keep Pak Armed forces alive, Pakistan, not.
In the case of Pak Nukes, Saudi pays, US military support & China tech and there is no rules.
What other navies doing in SCS is moment of freedom, a PEACETIME practice, and India is a member of NAM.
In war, India fight alone and US only using India for their dirty purpose, like they once used Pak.
Never compare Pakistan military with Pakistan, they are well funded, and under high debts they're spending billions to buy new equipment, lite frigates from turkey, china, new 8 ssk, new MPA, new MBT, 36 j10s, MR/LR SAM and most of them just counter India, without pre planning, India buys then Pak buys, and pover.
 

johnj

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I have never opposed import blindly. There are few Import which is necessary and excellent.

We have missed many opportunities in the past so we are now in desperate situation if we don't correct it now then we will surely in mesh in future.

How much we should buy... We are insufficient in allmost all areas. Now correcting one problem will increase other problems because Money is an important factor.

IAF used to say we will become some sort of invincible if we buy 36 rafale. Now new chief say we will become invincible if we buy 114 jets. But history tells us we has been became more and more weak and dependent on others while learnt nothing despite of tall claims of ToT. We need to swallow bitter pill and build ourselves.
''IAF used to say we will become some sort of invincible if we buy 36 rafale''. - IAF never said or even say something like this, but used rafale to make fun of ADA, thay why ADA bring MWF similar to rafale, with little delay. IAF needed 180/150 EU jets and not 36 in first place, now 114 new ones plus.
IAF really hate desi products, but like indigenous with foreign tech and love ready made and they follow army in choosing desi products.
In the of IN, they support both desi & indigenous only once it meet minimum military quality. Buying jets for IAC from foreign country helps to add modern tech, faster addition of new reliable jets and support ADA in design teddy by giving user inputs. No need to bring IAF & IA love of foreign maal in IN thread.
 

Adm Kenobi

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In the case of expenditure, only 13%~15% of defence budget goes to IN, too little compared to others.
It has changed,
72,997.41cr out of 3,85,370.15cr (total - DSE, which includes salaries)
~19% in this regards

IN only has <70k active personnel compared to >1200k of IA, the smaller portion in the total DSE is justified.

Looking at the capital budget would give a better perspective-
IN capital budget (current FY, BE) - 47,590cr
Total capital budget (current FY, BE) - 1,52,369cr

>31%.
 

johnj

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It has changed,
72,997.41cr out of 3,85,370.15cr (total - DSE, which includes salaries)
~19% in this regards

IN only has <70k active personnel compared to >1200k of IA, the smaller portion in the total DSE is justified.

Looking at the capital budget would give a better perspective-
IN capital budget (current FY, BE) - 47,590cr
Total capital budget (current FY, BE) - 1,52,369cr

>31%.
''It has changed'' from 18 to 13 to 19.
''the smaller portion in the total DSE is justified'' - true.
Point is military don't spend huge money for building infra outside it need and in Indians case, less on infra and spends accordly for important and major ones.
 

Photon

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Looks like she will be commissioned without MF STAR.
Already IAC faced one security breach issue probably NAVY want to install it later to keep things away from certain people ,I guess right now there are many insiders and outsider technicians are there onboard, probably Russians also because landing system installation was done by Russian OEM people, and its good to keep things away from some people and Kerala is a hub of Jihadies..
 

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