Indigenous Vikrant class Aircraft Carrier (IAC)

johnq

Senior Member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
1,385
Likes
2,780
You can bet on GTRE developing a better engine than russkies for sure. All the russkie did was use us as cash cow and milk us to every last drop of blood forget milk
I don't like to blame Russia because they are stuck in their own situation vs the west/China. Russia was the only one to supply India weapons at a time when India was under sanctions by the west; so it's better to keep them on friendly terms instead of pushing them into the China camp. It's just that their technology is outdated, so their engines are less reliable.

But it would be interesting to see what GTRE come up with. I've heard they have recently made progress on single crystal blades and other high temperature components.
 

Trololo

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2017
Messages
288
Likes
596
Country flag
I don't like to blame Russia because they are stuck in their own situation vs the west/China. Russia was the only one to supply India weapons at a time when India was under sanctions by the west; so it's better to keep them on friendly terms instead of pushing them into the China camp. It's just that their technology is outdated, so their engines are less reliable.

But it would be interesting to see what GTRE come up with. I've heard they have recently made progress on single crystal blades and other high temperature components.
GTRE won't be able to do squat with the RD-33. At best they might make some improvements here and there on the parts, but the RD-33 overall as a system will remain more or less the same. On a different note, can members tell us if the F414 can be mounted on the MiG 29Ks? If so, what kind of mods are needed and what will be the tentative cost impact?
 

SUPERPOWER

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2020
Messages
108
Likes
257
Country flag
GTRE won't be able to do squat with the RD-33. At best they might make some improvements here and there on the parts, but the RD-33 overall as a system will remain more or less the same. On a different note, can members tell us if the F414 can be mounted on the MiG 29Ks? If so, what kind of mods are needed and what will be the tentative cost impact?
Does GTRE add any value to our defence eco system or its mere a white elephant.!!!!!!!
 

silentlurker

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2020
Messages
75
Likes
48
Country flag
GTRE won't be able to do squat with the RD-33. At best they might make some improvements here and there on the parts, but the RD-33 overall as a system will remain more or less the same. On a different note, can members tell us if the F414 can be mounted on the MiG 29Ks? If so, what kind of mods are needed and what will be the tentative cost impact?
I'd imagine it would take a lot of work, given that India has no experience building F414s. Also, is it really worth the work for so few planes?
 

johnq

Senior Member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
1,385
Likes
2,780
India is going to be needing a lot of engines in the future; either F414 or something similar by GTRE to power Tejas, MWF, TEDBF, AMCA. So it is totally worth it both to manufacture F414 engines in India and eventually create Indian engines to power all these fighter aircraft, in addition to engines for fleets of indigenous refuelling aircraft, transport aircraft, AWACS, UAVs, cruise missiles, etc. India will eventually create a military industrial complex that will employ millions and export military aircraft and weapons.
India is going to kick China's ass in exporting better quality aircraft that actually work, unlike Chinese JF-17s which break down so often that half of Pakistan's JF-17 fleet is grounded. :rofl:
 

Trololo

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2017
Messages
288
Likes
596
Country flag
I'd imagine it would take a lot of work, given that India has no experience building F414s. Also, is it really worth the work for so few planes?
India need not build F414, but integrate them on the 29K. And possibly the new MiG 29s that the IAF is buying. That means 61 airframes.
 

Trololo

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2017
Messages
288
Likes
596
Country flag
India is going to be needing a lot of engines in the future; either F414 or something similar by GTRE to power Tejas, MWF, TEDBF, AMCA. So it is totally worth it both to manufacture F414 engines in India and eventually create Indian engines to power all these fighter aircraft, in addition to engines for fleets of indigenous refuelling aircraft, transport aircraft, AWACS, UAVs, cruise missiles, etc. India will eventually create a military industrial complex that will employ millions and export military aircraft and weapons.
India is going to kick China's ass in exporting better quality aircraft that actually work, unlike Chinese JF-17s which break down so often that half of Pakistan's JF-17 fleet is grounded. :rofl:
Building F414s is a good idea but methinks it will just be screwdrivergiri of CKD kits. If anything we will not get the tech for hot section turbines. At best we can learn some design that's it. Not the core metallurgy.
 

johnq

Senior Member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
1,385
Likes
2,780
Building F414s is a good idea but methinks it will just be screwdrivergiri of CKD kits. If anything we will not get the tech for hot section turbines. At best we can learn some design that's it. Not the core metallurgy.
GTRE has made progress on the hot sections, so India is going to get there on its own anyways eventually; so US companies are going to be more willing to move the entire manufacturing to India. By manufacturing the entire engine in India, US companies will be able to make a lot more engines more cheaply.
But I do think that India will be making its own series of GTRE engines in the next decade, both for supersonic and subsonic aircraft.
 

BON PLAN

-*-
Contributor
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
5,078
Likes
3,140
Country flag
A lot of developmental work has happened in the last decade since then, including successful creation of single crystal blade technology. In the next decade, they will operationalize it on a working engine.
Twenty years ago, I had the opportunity to discuss with the father of a friend of mine, to his wedding. This father was André Barbot, the man who lead the M88 program in SNECMA from the beginning to the entry phase. He explained me that the fine tune of an engine is something very special. They need some "sorcerers" (only 2 to 3 inside SNECMA), with a huge experience, a lot of prototyp behind them, some feeling....
It's not only a matter of technology.
It's not without reason that there are so few world wide fighter engine producers in the world. The chinese are spending huge money and using lot of skilled engineers for 20+ years and are not ready.
 

Tumba

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Jul 21, 2020
Messages
367
Likes
1,334
Does GTRE add any value to our defence eco system or its mere a white elephant.!!!!!!!
GTRE is actually an excellent unit.
Good passionate fellows work thr.

Although without putting much resources they have done a good job on engine core.

but Govt is getting serious lately I am pretty sure in a decade or so we will have reliable enough domestic engine to put on Light multiroles
 

Tumba

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Jul 21, 2020
Messages
367
Likes
1,334
Twenty years ago, I had the opportunity to discuss with the father of a friend of mine, to his wedding. This father was André Barbot, the man who lead the M88 program in SNECMA from the beginning to the entry phase. He explained me that the fine tune of an engine is something very special. They need some "sorcerers" (only 2 to 3 inside SNECMA), with a huge experience, a lot of prototyp behind them, some feeling....
It's not only a matter of technology.
It's not without reason that there are so few world wide fighter engine producers in the world. The chinese are spending huge money and using lot of skilled engineers for 20+ years and are not ready.
French Jet engine tech is basically sourced from GE... fine tuning and creating upgraded versions with time needs no master stroke
the original sorcerer are from GE which shared base metallurgy tech with u guys
 

johnq

Senior Member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
1,385
Likes
2,780
Twenty years ago, I had the opportunity to discuss with the father of a friend of mine, to his wedding. This father was André Barbot, the man who lead the M88 program in SNECMA from the beginning to the entry phase. He explained me that the fine tune of an engine is something very special. They need some "sorcerers" (only 2 to 3 inside SNECMA), with a huge experience, a lot of prototyp behind them, some feeling....
It's not only a matter of technology.
It's not without reason that there are so few world wide fighter engine producers in the world. The chinese are spending huge money and using lot of skilled engineers for 20+ years and are not ready.
20 years is a long time. With time and scientific ingenuity, all things are possible. Do not underestimate the brilliance of Indian engineers and scientists. They proved the world wrong on the Tejas, and they will do the same when it comes to engines.

Indians are better at coming up with ideas/solutions than the Chinese: This is mainly due to India being an open society that welcomes independent thought, vs China being a closed society where thoughts and ideas are deeply censored.

Then there are also the technological restrictions placed on China because of the lack of trust with the CCP and the PLA. Forget the west, even Russia is not willing to share critical technologies with China.

Indian researchers and engineers, on the other hand, can be found on the teams of the most cutting edge projects. I foresee a future where India and the west will collaborate on new technologies, as both are open societies.
 

Tumba

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Jul 21, 2020
Messages
367
Likes
1,334
20 years is a long time. With time and scientific ingenuity, all things are possible. Do not underestimate the brilliance of Indian engineers and scientists. They proved the world wrong on the Tejas, and they will do the same when it comes to engines.

Indians are better at coming up with ideas/solutions than the Chinese: This is mainly due to India being an open society that welcomes independent thought, vs China being a closed society where thoughts and ideas are deeply censored.

Then there are also the technological restrictions placed on China because of the lack of trust with the CCP and the PLA. Forget the west, even Russia is not willing to share critical technologies with China.

Indian researchers and engineers, on the other hand, can be found on the teams of the most cutting edge projects. I foresee a future where India and the west will collaborate on new technologies, as both are open societies.
I dont see any specific race being more tech savvy everything depends on push either by Govt or Market the resources invested and testing of every iteration and ofcourse the headstart..

developing metallurgy R&D is a long process one needs top notch funded universities plus govt institutions and of course mammoth defense corps ...

The nation whose circle is complete can master this Jewel Tech .. Jet Engine ultimately...

The tech sharing is basically do boost the completion time but the permutations and combination to basically develop a alloy stable enough for more and more iteration is in basically millions...

India will eventually will be able to developed engine not cause we have some racial superiority but because we will ultimately have strong reason, resources and history on same...

Regarding the chinese engines as per the OSINT thr engines are taking huge leaps every yea(stability and life of core) and with in a decade they will match the huge russian mettulurgic gains over them...

India is good decade behind chinese right now in same field..

I remember one instant where India got some samples of fire control warning mettalic cables used in F-16 in early days.. DRDO took 7 years to understand the composition ... get this 7 years this is how difficult mettulurgic sciences are
 

johnq

Senior Member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
1,385
Likes
2,780
I dont see any specific race being more tech savvy everything depends on push either by Govt or Market the resources invested and testing of every iteration and ofcourse the headstart..

developing metallurgy R&D is a long process one needs top notch funded universities plus govt institutions and of course mammoth defense corps ...

The nation whose circle is complete can master this Jewel Tech .. Jet Engine ultimately...

The tech sharing is basically do boost the completion time but the permutations and combination to basically develop a alloy stable enough for more and more iteration is in basically millions...

India will eventually will be able to developed engine not cause we have some racial superiority but because we will ultimately have strong reason, resources and history on same...

Regarding the chinese engines as per the OSINT thr engines are taking huge leaps every yea(stability and life of core) and with in a decade they will match the huge russian mettulurgic gains over them...

India is good decade behind chinese right now in same field..

I remember one instant where India got some samples of fire control warning mettalic cables used in F-16 in early days.. DRDO took 7 years to understand the composition ... get this 7 years this is how difficult mettulurgic sciences are
It is not about race. Read again what I have written. It is about India's open society which encourages independent thought vs Chinese closed society (with CCP's military style safeguards that watch everybody) which stifles independent thought.

One example is how Chinese engines don't work properly, because of which they had to import Russian engines. But Chinese cannot even publicly admit problems with their engines, because of how closed their society is, and they would rather lie. Unwanted thoughts are regularly purged by the Chinese Comunist Party criminals.

When you grow up in such a closed society, it limits your creativity and comprehension abilities.

Chinese are great at lying about their defensive capabilities, but when you lie so much that you start to believe your lies, it limits you.
 

Tumba

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Jul 21, 2020
Messages
367
Likes
1,334
It is not about race. Read again what I have written. It is about India's open society which encourages independent thought vs Chinese closed society (with CCP's military style safeguards that watch everybody) which stifles independent thought.

One example is how Chinese engines don't work properly, because of which they had to import Russian engines. But Chinese cannot even publicly admit problems with their engines, because of how closed their society is, and they would rather lie. Unwanted thoughts are regularly purged by the Chinese Comunist Party criminals.

When you grow up in such a closed society, it limits your creativity and comprehension abilities.

Chinese are great at lying about their defensive capabilities, but when you lie so much that you start to believe your lies, it limits you.

That might help to write sm poetry or drama the so called open thoughts but Mettulurgic tech is more related to simple compound logic ... the more historical data you have and the more resources you have ultimately you will reach an alloy or element stable enough to form the core of engine ...
Chinese are actually showing progress on jet engine stability you can go thougj recent reports published in US and Aus on same... they actually catch up with Russian jet engine tech by end of next decade think about the massive gap Soviets had in 90s against chinese
 

johnq

Senior Member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
1,385
Likes
2,780
That might help to write sm poetry or drama the so called open thoughts but Mettulurgic tech is more related to simple compound logic ... the more historical data you have and the more resources you have ultimately you will reach an alloy or element stable enough to form the core of engine ...
Chinese are actually showing progress on jet engine stability you can go thougj recent reports published in US and Aus on same... they actually catch up with Russian jet engine tech by end of next decade think about the massive gap Soviets had in 90s against chinese
I've been hearing the saga about Chinese engines for the last 2 decades, and they are still using Russian AL-31 engines because Chinese engines break down after 80 hours. And this is after they sank massive amounts of money into these projects. They haven't been able to master even AL-31 level technology; meanwhile Russia has already moved to a newer generation of engines for their latest fighter. Chinese are IP thieves and steal as much technology as possible; yet they have not been able to successfully reverse engineer Russian engine technology from 2 decades ago, even after trying for 2 decades and sinking massive amounts of money into it. Russia doesn't trust Chinese government because they are thieves and liars, hence will not sell China its latest engines. So Chinese keep on using older Russian AL-31 engines on their fighters.

All this is resulting from a combination of closed-minded thinking (which stifles creativity and original thought) in Chinese Communist society and technology restrictions placed on China by all countries including Russia because nobody trusts the Chinese Communist Party criminals.

India, on the other hand, has always respected IP laws, and so is more trusted by international community. It is also an open society that encourages creativity and innovative ideas, which in turn helps them come up with creative solutions to problems. This is why I foresee the west and India cooperating in the future, as both are open societies. Other countries trust India as a partner and with IP. This is also why India is making great technological strides, and is on the cusp of creating its own engines using technologies that it created with some help from friendly nations; not stole illegally like China through reverse engineering and internet hacking.

And these are the reasons why India will succeed in developing its own engines, similar to how it has succeeded in missile technology.
 

BON PLAN

-*-
Contributor
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
5,078
Likes
3,140
Country flag
French Jet engine tech is basically sourced from GE... fine tuning and creating upgraded versions with time needs no master stroke
the original sorcerer are from GE which shared base metallurgy tech with u guys
FULL BULL SHIT !
The origins of SNECMA engines are the german engineers POW.
It's not because SAFRAN (ex SNECMA) is producing 50% of the CFM56 familly that the fighter jet are GE derivatives. The US are jealous on high tech, specially about space and jets.
Stop that pityfull french bashing Bro.
 

BON PLAN

-*-
Contributor
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
5,078
Likes
3,140
Country flag
20 years is a long time. With time and scientific ingenuity, all things are possible. Do not underestimate the brilliance of Indian engineers and scientists. They proved the world wrong on the Tejas, and they will do the same when it comes to engines.

Indians are better at coming up with ideas/solutions than the Chinese: This is mainly due to India being an open society that welcomes independent thought, vs China being a closed society where thoughts and ideas are deeply censored.

Then there are also the technological restrictions placed on China because of the lack of trust with the CCP and the PLA. Forget the west, even Russia is not willing to share critical technologies with China.

Indian researchers and engineers, on the other hand, can be found on the teams of the most cutting edge projects. I foresee a future where India and the west will collaborate on new technologies, as both are open societies.
You are right.
But see where the Kaveri is. Far away the target. Despite decades.
Sorry if it hurts you, it's not my goal.
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top