India's Nuclear Doctrine

[LurkerBaba]

What does this fool at 48sec mean megadon? There is no such thing as megadon only megaton.

Try to focus on the message, instead of pointing out flaws in his pronunciation

 

[trackwhack]

The super powers are removing the 1 mt bombs rather they are going for more accuracy of missiles

All the superpower still have an active and large arsenel of megaton weapons and these are not just drop bombs but missile warheads. Lets stop fooling ourselves. I find it difficult to go with the limited wisdom of our strategists against the combined wisdom of the P-5 strategists regarding megaton warheads.

This whole thing about water system, sewer system, cholera hardly makes sense. A 5 megaton warhead instantly kills (well at least within 2 days from 3rd degree burns) everyone in a 1000 sq km area. There is no waiting till cholera hits.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Try to focus on the message, instead of pointing out flaws in his pronunciation

I totally agree with him! Poor audio did not allow me to hear, since you suggested i went and got a year phone..

He is spot on with the Tibet issue, thats something any non-coward in the policy circle would have implemented ages ago for all the aggression the Chichoms have shown on us. Everything China can do against us it has done, it has played all its cards from pakistan to naxals and it has not even been a bad rash on us, now if we begin playing our cards right we can end China in less than decade.

However Bharat Karnad is not in the policy makeing circle as he himself seems to frustratedly admit and our policy makers a bunch of passive minded cowards.

 

[Daredevil]

I suggest those who are suggesting Megaton bombs kindly go through this thread where this topic was discussed 2 years ago.

http://defenceforumindia.com/defenc...india-review-no-first-use-nuclear-policy.html

 

[sayareakd]

Here is a link directly at 92secs on the timeline. The relevant section is just 2min long, do try to watch it.

Bharat-Rakshak: Talk by Bharat Karnad on India's Strategic Security: Part 05 - YouTube

BK has some good points, we are mess up, if you think of it.

 

[Mad Indian]

Ok lets first save our fisher men from being killed, then we can talk about the balls to test another nuke device...


GoI has no balls to tell the Srilankans( which has ----ing nothing) that... You all are discussing about irritating the super powers of the West????

 

[Yusuf]

What I posted on the MIRV thread



These are serious numbers. A 5 megatonne nuke will clean up the entire NCR region. A 200 KT nuke wont even destroy Bejing.

Saar, the effective destruction power of a 1 MT bomb is less than 5 200kt bombs.
I have to go through this again

Mate, what is the objective of a nuclear bomb? First is deterrence, even a 10kt bomb is a deterrent.

Second, if we have to strike, what is the objective when you target a city? To kill max population and cause lots of problems. With a MT blast in the center of the city, the effect of it reduces exponentially with distance. Actually a MT bomb will not cause a lot of destruction. Now imagine a bomb dropped on water supply center, one on sewage line, it will cause cholera and other diseases which will kill far more people. If the idea is to kill people, MT is not the way. MT bombs were actually not developed to target cities but hardened silos to take out enemy missiles in a first strike.

Just for your information, at the height of the cold war, Britain had all its 200 warheads pointing at Moscow. That is what it would take to destroy one city.

Please read nuclear warfare by Stuart Slade. He was a nuclear targeteer in cold war days.

 

[KS]

Ok lets first save our fisher men from being killed, then we can talk about the balls to test another nuke device...


GoI has no balls to tell the Srilankans( which has ----ing nothing) that... You all are discussing about irritating the super powers of the West????

Now we are talking.

 

[KS]

These are serious numbers. A 5 megatonne nuke will clean up the entire NCR region. A 200 KT nuke wont even destroy Bejing.

5 400 KT nukes on 5 points on a city will do more damage than a single 5 MT nuke on one point.

The radiation effect of the nuke decreases by about cube (or fourth, not sure) as it moves out from the ground zero. So having more ground zeros will cause more damage than a single ground zero.

Let's start with what is widely known [when detonation occurs at an altitude to maximize 3.5+ psi destruction]. A single 20 Kt nuclear weapon would produce 8.04 square miles of 3+ psi destruction. From this we can easily calculate that detonating eight individual 20 Kt weapons would produce 64 square miles of 3+ psi destruction [64.3=8x8.04]. This is the same area of 3+ psi destruction that would occur upon detonating one 475 Kt thermonuclear weapon.


Now let's go a step further and consider the potential consequences of SIMULTANEOUSLY DETONATING a pattern of eight nuclear weapons. I have not seen simultaneous nuclear air bursts discussed, or even hinted at, in the open literature, but too many of their effects are too obvious to ignore them, as can be seen in the "M" (Multiple Blasts) command in Nukefix.

When eight low-tech 20 Kt nuclear weapons are detonated simultaneously in an encirclement pattern (5 mile radius, 4.3 miles between zero points in a circle) in a high population density urban area, at least as much destruction would tend to be produced as with a single one megaton thermonuclear weapon. The reason for this is firestorms and the interaction of blast forces.

A one megaton weapon would cause 105 square miles of 3+ psi destruction. With firestorms, the 20 Kt encirclement pattern can readily envelope 105 square miles in total destruction, leaving no escape for the inhabitants. At a population density of 12,000 per square mile the 20 Kt encirclement pattern might well produce 53% more deaths than a single one megaton weapon, which is to say, approximately 1,082,884 deaths with 20 Kt encirclement versus approximately 708,426 deaths with a one-megaton blast. [This can be calculated with the "M" command in the downloadable computer program Nukefix]

With the simultaneous detonation of eight 20 Kt weapons on a day with 35 mile visibility, the thermal energy from the initial blast throughout the 105 square miles would be sufficient to ignite items having the same degree of flammability as thin black rubber at every point that was in line of sight of the contributing weapons. At Hiroshima (12.5 Kt), the approximate area characterized here by the flammability of rubber was involved in a firestorm.

While every flammable item of such characteristics would not ignite, a sufficient number would tend to burn that the entire area would be immediately subject to creation of firestorms, and the whole area would eventually tend to be subject to firestorms as fires from the hottest areas coalesced. Upholstery and other similarly flammable interior items near windows in homes would have a potential to start fires.


http://www.nukefix.org/weapon.html

One more advanatge of MIRV.

Having a 5 MT nuke is , in simple words, just waste except for ego boost. Having 5 400KT nukes would be more effective.

 

[Iamanidiot]

All the superpower still have an active and large arsenel of megaton weapons and these are not just drop bombs but missile warheads. Lets stop fooling ourselves. I find it difficult to go with the limited wisdom of our strategists against the combined wisdom of the P-5 strategists regarding megaton warheads.

This whole thing about water system, sewer system, cholera hardly makes sense. A 5 megaton warhead instantly kills (well at least within 2 days from 3rd degree burns) everyone in a 1000 sq km area. There is no waiting till cholera hits.

But Field Marhal Ronghzen nie and Krishnaswamy Sundarji are the pioneers of deterrence doctrine.They have explicitly stated that bigger buke are not effective nukes

 

[Daredevil]

Here are the links to Stuart Slade's Nuclear Warfare 101 that Yusuf mentioned. He takes us through different aspects of nuclear warfare. Please go through it to understand what kind of nuclear weapons to use to make it act as a deterrent.

Nuclear Warfare 101

Nuclear Warfare 102

Nuclear Warfare 103

In the third link he talks about effectiveness of few 150-300 kiloton weapons than few megaton weapons.

 

[sayareakd]

problem will start for us when things would reach nuclear escalation ladder, worse case situation both China and Pakistan doing tag team on us. To avoid such a situation and to make both of them believe that the risk is not worth taking, we have do something for that. As Bharat Kandla said once nukes start hitting us, we wont find anyone in west helping us.

 

[trackwhack]

1) We dont have demonstrated capability of 200KT
2) We dont have demonstrated capability of delivery systems more than 3.5K km. Once A5 is demonstrated, we are 5 years away from operational deployment
3) We dont have demonstrated capability of MIRV. Once MIRV is demonstrated, we are 5 years away from operational deployment
4) The P5 have active arsenel of megaton warheads
5) Our warheads are outnumbered at a ratio of 1:5 at best and 1:30 at worst vis a vis China
6) Our warheads are outgunned in terms of yield by a ratio of 1:25 at best (considering 200KT) and 1:250 at worst (considering 20KT)

You cannot argue against hard number and facts. It is hilarious that our deterrence is going to depend on an endemic following a nuclear blast! Cholera? For crying out loud man.

And to reiterate : A 5 Megaton warhead has a destructive area of 1000+ Square kilometers. To put it in perspective New Delhi is 1500square KM. That is why Megatonne warheads are called Citybusters. You can make pretty pictures and designs of multiple smaller warheads. Its not the same.

If we are having this conversation 20 years from now and we still have not tested, I will have the exact same apprehensions. And these apprehensions are valid and real. WE DO NOT HAVE DEMONSTRATED THERMONUCLEAR WEAPONS

 

[pankaj nema]

First let us understand what exactly is our Nuclear doctrine

Our doctrine is about a massive SECOND strike capability

This essentially means having a LARGE number of warheads so as to inflict unacceptable damage to the enemy

The large megaton warheads will be cumbersome to handle and will of course be heavier than
200 KT warheads

Secondly the missiles are mobile ie moving through road or rail and dispersed around to save our arsenal
from the enemy's first strike

Hence we need more number of small warheads and more number of missiles which are well distributed

MIRV warheads and missiles ; which is our goal are NOT of the megaton class

One US MIRV missile contains 10 warheads of a power of 400 kt

 

[KS]

And to reiterate : A 5 Megaton warhead has a destructive area of 1000+ Square kilometers. To put it in perspective New Delhi is 1500square KM. That is why Megatonne warheads are called Citybusters. You can make pretty pictures and designs of multiple smaller warheads. Its not the same.

They are called citybusters by fanbois who think bigger is better. No it is not.

There are plenty of material out there in the net. Wiki is a good starter.Effects of nuclear explosions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

BTW if you have any links/scientific studies claiming the same, feel free to share.For information sake the effective destrection range of the Tsar Bomba ( > 50 MT) was just 25-35 kms. Calcuate for 5 MT

 

[trackwhack]

They are called citybusters by fanbois who think bigger is better. No it is not.

There are plenty of material out there in the net. Wiki is a good starter.Effects of nuclear explosions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

BTW if you have any links/scientific studies claiming the same, feel free to share.

Do your research kid, Im not gonna babysit you ass. 5 megatons cause 3rd degree burns at a 30 km radius. Even if you take everyone beyond 20 km radius survives with 3rd degree or worse burns, 20 km radius still translates to 1256 sq km. Elementary math.

Pankaj, we do not have demonstrated capability of thermonuclear weapons. So lets stop with the 200KT assumptions until tested. The thread is about testing megaton weapons, or at least 200KT weapons if we are going to justify that 200KT is enough

 

[KS]

Do your research kid, Im not gonna babysit you ass. 5 megatons cause 3rd degree burns at a 30 km radius. Even if you take everyone beyond 20 km radius survives with 3rd degree or worse burns, 20 km radius still translates to 1256 sq km. Elementary math.

Wow some is getting wound up pretty fast.. My research and the associates link is my previous post and the post before that..

I would like to see where you got the idea a 5 MT nuke would destroy 1000 + sq kms when the destruction range of the Tsar Bomba ( 50 MT) is just 25-35 kms. Or is that too much to ask ?

And my argument again is 5 400 KT nukes airburst cause more damage than a single 5 MT bomb because of the shock wave interference causing amplification and the multiple points of explosion. There is a reason why the big daddies of nukes - USA and Russia are concentrating on MIRVs of 350-400KT each when they have the tech to build even 50 MT bombs.

 

[pankaj nema]

Trackwhack

Megaton weapons are of course big and will cause more damage

But What about the practicality issues such as payload capacity of Agni Missiles

And today in the age of BMD systems it is universally accepted that MIRV is much better than Megaton bombs

And a Nuclear strike has to be replied immediately

It will take much more time to FIT a megaton warhead on a missile

 

[KS]

Yield and the destructive area are not linearly related,

Comparison of the hiroshima bomb (12.5 KT) and a modern 1 MT warhead.

While the modern warhead is 80 times more powerful than the little boy, it causes only 6 times as much damage.

So 8 little boys would practically cause more damage than a 1 MT bomb even though arithmetically they (8*12.5 = 100 KT) are 10 times less powerful than a 1 MT bomb.

 

[trackwhack]

Wow some is getting wound up pretty fast.. My research and the associates link is my previous post and the post before that..

I would like to see where you got the idea a 5 MT nuke would destroy 1000 + sq kms when the destruction range of the Tsar Bomba ( 50 MT) is just 25-35 kms. Or is that too much to ask ?

And my argument again is 5 400 KT nukes airburst cause more damage than a single 5 MT bomb because of the shock wave interference causing amplification and the multiple points of explosion. There is a reason why the big daddies of nukes - USA and Russia are concentrating on MIRVs of 350-400KT each when they have the tech to build even 50 MT bombs.

You need to stop smoking the peace pipe. Villages 60 KM away from the TSAR Bomba were reduced to rubble, not from fires, but shattered by the blast waves. The Tsar bomba immediate kill area is close to 10,000 sq km. The Tsar would have caused 3rd degree burns at more than 100km. DO YOUR RESEARCH. Taking potshots only shows you up as the internet warrior that you are. Once again, we do not have 400KT. We claim to have 200KT. I'd rather debate with grown ups. Ignoring your uneducated tripe.

Here baby, read

Although simplistic fireball calculations predicted the fireball would impact the ground, the bomb's own shock wave reflected back and prevented this.[9] The fireball reached nearly as high as the altitude of the release plane and was seen almost 1,000 kilometres (620 mi) from ground zero. The subsequent mushroom cloud was about 64 kilometres (40 mi) high (nearly eight times the height of Mount Everest), which meant that the cloud was well inside the mesosphere when it peaked. The base of the cloud was 40 kilometres (25 mi) wide. All buildings in the village of Severny (both wooden and brick), located 55 kilometres (34 mi) from ground zero within the Sukhoy Nos test range, were completely destroyed. In districts hundreds of kilometers from ground zero, wooden houses were destroyed, stone ones lost their roofs, windows and doors; and radio communications were interrupted for almost one hour. One participant in the test saw a bright flash through dark goggles and felt the effects of a thermal pulse even at a distance of 270 kilometres (170 mi). The heat from the explosion could have caused third-degree burns 100 km (62 mi) away from ground zero. A shock wave was observed in the air at Dikson settlement 700 kilometres (430 mi) away; windowpanes were partially broken to distances of 900 kilometres (560 mi). Atmospheric focusing caused blast damage at even greater distances, breaking windows in Norway and Finland. The seismic shock created by the detonation was measurable even on its third passage around the Earth.[10] Its seismic body wave magnitude was about 5 to 5.25.[9] The energy yield was around 7.1 on the Richter scale but, since the bomb was detonated in air rather than underground, most of the energy was not converted to seismic waves. The device was trillions of times more powerful per unit volume in comparison to the material in the sun's fusion core (about 25% of the sun's radius) and it would take about 10 million years for an equivalent volume of the sun's core to produce the same amount of energy as came from within the bomb's casing. The TNT equivalent of the 50 Mt test could be represented by a cube of TNT 312 metres on a side, approximately the height of the Eiffel Tower.

You have no clue about what you are talking about simply copy pasting stuff of the net. There is a word for that - Trolling.

Pankaj, all our missiles have enough payload for Megaton warheads. The A3 has a payload of 2 tonnes. A 1 megaton fusion bomb will weigh between 500-700 kgs depending on design. A 5 megaton device wont exceed 1.5 tons.