India's first line of defence - RAW

indiatester

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Pakis are so successful that they have been isolated from every single bilateral relationship they have barring daddy China

How many billions have they lost? How many 1000s of their soldiers/citizens?
You have a point there. But, it was move diplomatic effort (aided by intelligence ofcourse) and also the experience of US directly.
Had it not been for 9/11 the western countries would have still been calling Kashmir insurgents and not terrorists. So, I won't give so much credit to RAW.

My issue was more with the episode where they tried to show that both RAW and ISI are equal.
I also hate the ability of ISI to be able to carry our attacks in our country and us not taking any direct action on it.
Hope with the US moving out, we have more degrees of freedom.
 

samsaptaka

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MUST watch
Fantastic to know that RAW is indeed behind TTP and Baloch movement or atleast involved !
However both the men in the video seem to (coupta we know anyway, where his loyalty lies) be hard core believers in wanting peace between terroristan and bharath , and seem to be giving porkies a clean chit regarding terror . Its like a man unleashes dogs on you, and some go rabid and attack the master, so the master is also now the victim and cannot be blamed. So Porkie cannot be blamed for Pulwama ! Yeah right ! By this logic, we should be having fantastic tea with JeM and LeT too, bloody hell
 

abingdonboy

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Fantastic to know that RAW is indeed behind TTP and Baloch movement or atleast involved !
However both the men in the video seem to (coupta we know anyway, where his loyalty lies) be hard core believers in wanting peace between terroristan and bharath , and seem to be giving porkies a clean chit regarding terror . Its like a man unleashes dogs on you, and some go rabid and attack the master, so the master is also now the victim and cannot be blamed. So Porkie cannot be blamed for Pulwama ! Yeah right ! By this logic, we should be having fantastic tea with JeM and LeT too, bloody hell
SG is what he is

I think Levy romanticises ISI too much and wants to see these things in a COLD WAR style CIA-KGB rivalry when the reality is it’s a hot war and there’s a lot of blood being spilled

The point he makes that’s most valid though is that the Indian intel community must be brought under judicial scrutiny. The fact they don’t have that oversight is highly problematic and will lead to a disaster sooner or later. This would also create a mechanism where the Indian IC’s successes could be recognised (after a while)
 

abingdonboy

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You have a point there. But, it was move diplomatic effort (aided by intelligence ofcourse) and also the experience of US directly.
Had it not been for 9/11 the western countries would have still been calling Kashmir insurgents and not terrorists. So, I won't give so much credit to RAW.

My issue was more with the episode where they tried to show that both RAW and ISI are equal.
I also hate the ability of ISI to be able to carry our attacks in our country and us not taking any direct action on it.
Hope with the US moving out, we have more degrees of freedom.


it’s funny that if you read PDF you’ll see the exact same sentiment but mirrored (they say why can Indian agencies bleed us but our agencies can’t hit them back?)

the truth will always be more nuanced than this. But I think the relative peace that India enjoys vs the complete anarchy thar Pakistan sees is scoreboard enough. Plus we have hard evidence of paki involvement in aggression against India thanks to indian IC, where is the evidence on the Paki side against India? Either their agencies can’t detect it or Indian agencies are just far more gifted operators


my biggest gripe with indian IC is that the ‘big fish’ like Masood, Ibrahim etc get to live in relative peace in Pakistan. Indian agencies 100% know where they are yet refuse to act? We all know what happened to OBL. but I guess this js more of a political shortcoming/decision
 

samsaptaka

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my biggest gripe with indian IC is that the ‘big fish’ like Masood, Ibrahim..
I think in the video he did drop some clues on how perhaps RAW is purposely not eliminating them in order to catch bigger fish and wider network , allowing things to play ? One of the veterans here @Hellfire also is of the same opinion.
 

notaname

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SG is what he is

I think Levy romanticises ISI too much and wants to see these things in a COLD WAR style CIA-KGB rivalry when the reality is it’s a hot war and there’s a lot of blood being spilled

The point he makes that’s most valid though is that the Indian intel community must be brought under judicial scrutiny. The fact they don’t have that oversight is highly problematic and will lead to a disaster sooner or later. This would also create a mechanism where the Indian IC’s successes could be recognised (after a while)
What do you exactly mean by judicial oversight? I want to know how a session court or high court which is biased towards certain political ideology will react to intelligence operations or take up the case of ISRO scientist Nambi Narayan, I want to know your opinion in taking all those things in consideration which happens to police also in regards to judicial oversight.

Regards
 

samsaptaka

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What do you exactly mean by judicial oversight? I want to know how a session court or high court which is biased towards certain political ideology will react to intelligence operations or take up the case of ISRO scientist Nambi Narayan, I want to know your opinion in taking all those things in consideration which happens to police also in regards to judicial oversight.

Regards
Yeah, given our corrupt judiciary, they will sabotage all Intelligence and help porkies...one cannot but help feel this way
 

alex86neo

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Intelligence agencies always need to do dirty work. If we make RAW accountable to judiciary, they will simply need to make another agency to do such dirty work and purpose will not be served. We simply don’t have perks of peaceful neighbors like USA have. so totally accountable agency will serve more harm than good. And I feel RAW is accountable enough. We need to give them more budget.
 

WARREN SS

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Intelligence agencies always need to do dirty work. If we make RAW accountable to judiciary, they will simply need to make another agency to do such dirty work and purpose will not be served. We simply don’t have perks of peaceful neighbors like USA have. so totally accountable agency will serve more harm than good. And I feel RAW is accountable enough. We need to give them more budget.
Judiciary rejected its over reach to R&AW affairs
Bhusan and its gamd tried to put leash on its affairs
 

FalconSlayers

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𝑻𝒉𝒆 𝑾𝒐𝒍𝒇𝑷𝒂𝒄𝒌🔎 (@TheWolfpackIN) Tweeted:
Just like Indian military is reorganizing itself on the lines of US Theater Commands, India's foreign intel service, R&AW may also reorganize itself on the lines of the CIA by replacing its old divisions and directorates with "Integrated Mission Centers".

 

not so dravidian

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Seems like we have missed this one

3 RAW officers defect to the west

dated 2016

Updated 2018

Three officers belonging to the Research and Analysis Wing (RAW), India’s external spy agency, have “willingly disappeared” and are now likely to be in a large Western country, which has a history of accepting and facilitating such disappearances of Indian intelligence officers, The Sunday Guardian has learnt. Repeated emails sent to the Cabinet Secretariat, which is the controlling body of the RAW, over a period of two weeks, seeking responses over the development, did not elicit either a denial or an acceptance of the development.

These RAW officers, one of whom is posted at a senior level in the agency, had shifted their families to the western country much before they themselves disappeared. The disappearance of these three officers took place in the last three months, this newspaper has learnt. Two of the officers were handling two South Asian countries, while the third was handling a large East Asian country.


It is assumed that these three officers were working for the intelligence agency of the Western country for long and in all likelihood have passed on vital information to the agency before disappearing.


Emails sent to two departments that handle such defections in this particular Western country did not elicit any response, either a denial or a confirmation, despite repeated attempts.

This is not for the first time that officers working for the Indian spy agency have “willingly disappeared”. Many similar incidents, at least nine as per official records, have happened since the creation of the agency in 1968, including the defection of Rabinder Singh, who was a joint secretary in the RAW before defecting to the United States in 2004.

In 2004, Rabinder Singh had defected to the US via Kathmandu along with his wife with the assistance of the CIA. In 2006, RAW had told a Delhi court that he had been traced to New Jersey and the agency was trying to extradite him.

According to officials in the security establishment, it is virtually impossible to bring back these spies as once they land in their country of refuge, they are given a new identity and are treated as well guarded assets and with time are granted citizenships.

In this game of cloak and daggers, defections are not very uncommon. In the late 1980s, Igor Guejo, a KGB agent disappeared from New Delhi under mysterious circumstances. His red Lada Vaz car was found abandoned at Lodhi Garden, where he used to go for his evening walks. Even as Indian agencies searched for him, Guejo surfaced in New York some days later. It was obvious that he had defected from USSR to the US.

There are also ample stories of how senior bureaucrats and officers of the armed forces have been compromised to work for intelligence agencies abroad. The infamous spy scandal involving the Larkin brothers—one a retired Air Vice Marshal and the other a decorated Major General—was a grim reminder of how Western intelligence agencies had successfully recruited two men with many state secrets.(link attached)

There have been allegations that a former chief in the defence establishment had close connections with the Americans during one of India’s internal conflict in the 1960s. The names of several politicians who were close to the CIA figure in a book written by celebrated author and journalist, Seymour Hersh.
 

not so dravidian

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Seems like we have missed this one

3 RAW officers defect to the west

dated 2016

Updated 2018

Three officers belonging to the Research and Analysis Wing (RAW), India’s external spy agency, have “willingly disappeared” and are now likely to be in a large Western country, which has a history of accepting and facilitating such disappearances of Indian intelligence officers, The Sunday Guardian has learnt. Repeated emails sent to the Cabinet Secretariat, which is the controlling body of the RAW, over a period of two weeks, seeking responses over the development, did not elicit either a denial or an acceptance of the development.

These RAW officers, one of whom is posted at a senior level in the agency, had shifted their families to the western country much before they themselves disappeared. The disappearance of these three officers took place in the last three months, this newspaper has learnt. Two of the officers were handling two South Asian countries, while the third was handling a large East Asian country.


It is assumed that these three officers were working for the intelligence agency of the Western country for long and in all likelihood have passed on vital information to the agency before disappearing.


Emails sent to two departments that handle such defections in this particular Western country did not elicit any response, either a denial or a confirmation, despite repeated attempts.

This is not for the first time that officers working for the Indian spy agency have “willingly disappeared”. Many similar incidents, at least nine as per official records, have happened since the creation of the agency in 1968, including the defection of Rabinder Singh, who was a joint secretary in the RAW before defecting to the United States in 2004.

In 2004, Rabinder Singh had defected to the US via Kathmandu along with his wife with the assistance of the CIA. In 2006, RAW had told a Delhi court that he had been traced to New Jersey and the agency was trying to extradite him.

According to officials in the security establishment, it is virtually impossible to bring back these spies as once they land in their country of refuge, they are given a new identity and are treated as well guarded assets and with time are granted citizenships.

In this game of cloak and daggers, defections are not very uncommon. In the late 1980s, Igor Guejo, a KGB agent disappeared from New Delhi under mysterious circumstances. His red Lada Vaz car was found abandoned at Lodhi Garden, where he used to go for his evening walks. Even as Indian agencies searched for him, Guejo surfaced in New York some days later. It was obvious that he had defected from USSR to the US.

There are also ample stories of how senior bureaucrats and officers of the armed forces have been compromised to work for intelligence agencies abroad. The infamous spy scandal involving the Larkin brothers—one a retired Air Vice Marshal and the other a decorated Major General—was a grim reminder of how Western intelligence agencies had successfully recruited two men with many state secrets.(link attached)

There have been allegations that a former chief in the defence establishment had close connections with the Americans during one of India’s internal conflict in the 1960s. The names of several politicians who were close to the CIA figure in a book written by celebrated author and journalist, Seymour Hersh.
Remeber CIA agent confessing that offer children of foreign intelligence seats in elite colleges is the best way to buy them?

Can someone link taht tweet plz!!
 

avknight1408

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3 RAW officers defect to the west

Three officers belonging to the Research and Analysis Wing (RAW), India’s external spy agency, have “willingly disappeared” and are now likely to be in a large Western country, which has a history of accepting and facilitating such disappearances of Indian intelligence officers,.

This is not for the first time that officers working for the Indian spy agency have “willingly disappeared.
There are atleast 10 known incidents of defections in RAW. Mostly it's CIA. Offering green cards or citizenship or student visas are powerful incentives which CIA uses to recruit. They managed to penetrate the highest levels of mighty KGB multiple times. RAW not as good as KGB so CIA has a field day.

One defector is Sikandar lal malik who was personal secretary of the agency's founder RN Kao. He never returned from foreign posting and then was found to have settled down in USA. Just imagine it. This guy would have had a goldmine of information.:mad2:
 

Cheran

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There are atleast 10 known incidents of defections in RAW. Mostly it's CIA. Offering green cards or citizenship or student visas are powerful incentives which CIA uses to recruit. They managed to penetrate the highest levels of mighty KGB multiple times. RAW not as good as KGB so CIA has a field day.

One defector is Sikandar lal malik who was personal secretary of the agency's founder RN Kao. He never returned from foreign posting and then was found to have settled down in USA. Just imagine it. This guy would have had a goldmine of information.:mad2:
There are no repercussions.

There should be a fear of consequence also.
 

avknight1408

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Have you heard of Ratan Sehgal? He was a very senior officer in IB's counter intelligence division. His own division caught him having clandestine meetings with two American diplomats( who later turned out to be CIA station chief and deputy chief). He was dismissed from his job but was not arrested.
God bless the honest IB personnel who probed their own boss. 🙏

Read more in this article from 1997

India Today - Indo-US relations take a step backward following Ratan Sehgal episode
 

Covfefe

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Don't you guys think that there has been too much Punjabi dominance in India's defence circles too? So many Sehgals, Aroras, Singhs and Maliks. Is their romance with Pakistan (the memories of partition and the pind across the border) one of the reasons for their affinity towards Pakistan, in particular? Don't usually see any easterner, westerner, south or central Indian so much vested emotionally with the Pakis. Not saying that they are any less committed to their duties, but the numerical dominance seems a lot.
 

thefewthefearless

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That may be true for RAW agents. But what about engineers, doctors and scientists who would want a challenging career? If they don't even know RAW exists, they will continue working for the usual soul crushing jobs. There definitely is some interest in the career opportunities RAW provides, but no one knows where and how to apply. CIA and MI5 employ their ivy league grads, how many from our iits and nits are working for RAW?
officers are recruited from ips, ifs (very least from ias)
agents are recruited from colleges, army, paramilitary, police (very least)
hit team is the special group. they are funded by raw and have access to every weapon and hi-grade equipments.
ntro recruits by deputation, it's given on their website. so they contain the technical part of r&aw.
R&AW Is Shady Organization With No morality Most Vicious It Does things You Will only dreamed About

It Does ops One Cannot Do Wearing Uniform.Some of Which Make You question your own morality as human being

It Is most cursed Organization But It Works In garb Of Corrupt Bureaucracy

If You Betray The Agency It Will Spare No one Not Even your close ones

So All the Aspirants Who Want Join Should Think 10 times

Intel gathering is a Serious Business
raw is an govt. service based spying agency. it's not the kgb/ isi (which are/was ideological based).
He conspired to stop Bikram singhs appointments as army chief.

IB was probably penetrated by Congressi stooges at the time


IB is shit organisation from what I've observed, they have babu culture much like any IPS headed job. IPS officer aren't the perfect folks for intelligence agency job it's a 50 50 ratio between good and bad. Most IPS officers can't think out of the box it's not their fault its their training. IB was probably responsible for Lal Bahadur Shastris death as well after all it had KGB influence form 1960
cannot confirm about r&aw but ib has confirmed muslim intelligence officers working as probably linguists, tech and analysts.
He was first man to who able get penetration of R&AW Network
Inside Indian armed forces In kashmir

Also political faction of IB not R&AW killed TSD which it seemed threat to it's power
And it's masters

IB is KGB of India which even R&AW fears
ib is no way near what r&aw does. nobody fears ib. yes it was/is corrupted to some extent. r&aw faced shit prime ministers and chiefs who were congressi boot lickers

an estimate by the U.S.-based Federation of American Scientists suggests that in 2000, RAW had about eight to ten thousand agents and a budget that experts place at $145 million.

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/raw-indias-external-intelligence-agency
Is there estimate for now? It will be pretty good if around $4-5 billions.
our no. agents and budget are slightly overstated

I got the books a few months back, was not disappointed.

RAW toppled govts in Fiji and BD, took out Khali networks and assassinations in the UK and gave monetary and military support to Ahmed Shah Massoud in Afg. Would be interested in reading more such books.
hell yea, even recorded sex tapes
Fantastic to know that RAW is indeed behind TTP and Baloch movement or atleast involved !
However both the men in the video seem to (coupta we know anyway, where his loyalty lies) be hard core believers in wanting peace between terroristan and bharath , and seem to be giving porkies a clean chit regarding terror . Its like a man unleashes dogs on you, and some go rabid and attack the master, so the master is also now the victim and cannot be blamed. So Porkie cannot be blamed for Pulwama ! Yeah right ! By this logic, we should be having fantastic tea with JeM and LeT too, bloody hell
it was always behind it. baloch one was also accepted by doval.
SG is what he is

I think Levy romanticises ISI too much and wants to see these things in a COLD WAR style CIA-KGB rivalry when the reality is it’s a hot war and there’s a lot of blood being spilled

The point he makes that’s most valid though is that the Indian intel community must be brought under judicial scrutiny. The fact they don’t have that oversight is highly problematic and will lead to a disaster sooner or later. This would also create a mechanism where the Indian IC’s successes could be recognised (after a while)
sg does not work with "terrorists".
also it's almost like cold war. hamarese competition ki vajah se aisi taisi kar raha hai. unka pura desh ideology pe chalta hai. isi se lekr army.
jernail saab ke bacche london me aur gareeb ke macche mujahideen me.
Don't you guys think that there has been too much Punjabi dominance in India's defence circles too? So many Sehgals, Aroras, Singhs and Maliks. Is their romance with Pakistan (the memories of partition and the pind across the border) one of the reasons for their affinity towards Pakistan, in particular? Don't usually see any easterner, westerner, south or central Indian so much vested emotionally with the Pakis. Not saying that they are any less committed to their duties, but the numerical dominance seems a lot.
yep. this is the reason why mixing of demographies is imp. it's particularly high around the border.
 
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avknight1408

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Decades long strategy of Paki intelligence ( ISI and MI) is to recruit low level personnel in Indian security establishment. These are low cost ops but can be a hit or miss. Some of these fellows may have access to sensitive information.


Surely RAW must have informants inside paki establishment but I seriously doubt they have very high number of informants. In many books it is claimed that RAW depends on TECHINT.
 

Spindrift

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Decades long strategy of Paki intelligence ( ISI and MI) is to recruit low level personnel in Indian security establishment. These are low cost ops but can be a hit or miss. Some of these fellows may have access to sensitive information.


Surely RAW must have informants inside paki establishment but I seriously doubt they have very high number of informants. In many books it is claimed that RAW depends on TECHINT.
Once we discover them, why can't we use them for disinfo?
 

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