Indian Woman for Combat Duties

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Bornubus

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Tribals height relaxation is agreeable.
I don't actually know what a dalit is, there are a lot of obc, kbc, bbc, that I don't bother to look into it too much.
But there is a limit to this reservation BS, now everyone is trying to get it.
And I recently saw and ad for IB where reservation thingy was applied, i.e. lower standards for certain groups.
As I said there will never be any reservation in armed forces.

As for IB it is unrelated these come under home ministry where all kind of reservation is allowed along with Paramilitary forces (except Physical test)
 

The Last Stand

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I think the main problem is Biological.

Men on average are a taller by 10 cm and have 40-50% more upper body strength. This translates into more endurance on the battlefield and men can be expected to handle weapons better.

I would say that requirements be relaxed for women separately and not for men (don't know if requirements will be lowered for both).

Perhaps the more demanding combat roles can be cordoned off for women? (Again a suggestion, idk the current state)
 

Razor

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As I said there will never be any reservation in armed forces.

As for IB it is unrelated these come under home ministry where all kind of reservation is allowed along with Paramilitary forces (except Physical test)
Intelligence agencies doing effective work are more important for the stability and security of the nation than the army.
 

Bornubus

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Intelligence agencies doing effective work are more important for the stability and security of the nation than the army.
BS

.................................
 

Razor

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Stating that IB is more imp than Armed forces is neither presentation nor cure but pure BS.
Prevention not "presentation"

Maybe you have comprehension issues?
Read again and slowing this time.
Intelligence agencies doing effective work are more important for the stability and security of the nation than the army.
"Intelligence agencies" Not IB alone
"doing effective work" collection, analysis, co-ordination (including using security forces.)

Muscle is a good thing, but brain always wins.
Decisions made through good intelligence is what wins wars effectively, not JUST high tech weapon or massive armies.
In social stability issues, you can bring in the army to cull the riot, but more riot will come if you don't identify the source/behind the scenes of the riots, that is where effective intelligence agencies come in.
 
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Nuvneet Kundu

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if they can become like dr seema rao, then what's the problem?

No problem with exceptionally talented people but she is an exception. One can't use an exception from a group to define (read : bulldoze) the rules of an entire nation. It's the same argument as 'muslims are very patriotic, haven't you heard AR Rehman songs?' :doh:

No one has a problem with women in the forces, but there should be a common entrance criteria, no special treatment during recruitment, posting or promotion. If women agree to this then allow them. It can't be the case that they want equal salary as male infantry men while the men are sent to grunge insurgency hit locations and women are stationed in urban civilian areas as a bloated ceremonial force being a parasite on tax payers money in the name of 'feminism'.
 

sasum

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There is 00 relaxation for Dalits in armed forces not in written exams and absolutely none in Physical standards.

There are relaxation for Hill people and tribals but only in Height not in Running, long jump etc even relatives of martyrs are supposed to do these tests.

This is the only institution which is free from this victim hood rot otherwise it were Indians who became POWs in 1971 instead of Pakis.

Today women next Hijra will ask for combat role in Army may be a patrol in Siachin.
My comment was in jest..catch the drift. See it in the light of my previous comment.
 

Bornubus

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Prevention not "presentation"

Maybe you have comprehension issues?
Read again and slowing this time.
I have read it slowly and it has nothing to do with comprehension but stating that IB is more important than Army is the most stupid thing one can hear on Defence forums.

First educate yourself about the mandate of IB and RAW.
 

Razor

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I have read it slowly and it has nothing to do with comprehension but stating that IB is more important than Army is the most stupid thing one can hear on Defence forums.

First educate yourself about the mandate of IB and RAW.
Can you point out, if you can, where I have "stated" IB is more important than Army??
YOU CAN'T
What you are doing is called strawman argument, i.e. arguing against a point I did not make.

For the third time, intelligence agencies not IB alone or RAW alone.
 
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Nuvneet Kundu

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Tribals height relaxation is agreeable.
I don't actually know what a dalit is, there are a lot of obc, kbc, bbc, that I don't bother to look into it too much.
But there is a limit to this reservation-type BS, now everyone is trying to get it.
And I recently saw an ad for IB where reservation thingy was applied, i.e. lower standards for certain groups.
Sir, I remember that IB ad, the reservation was for the job of assistant stenographer :)
 

Razor

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Sir, I remember that IB ad, the reservation was for the job of assistant stenographer :)
Hmm, okay. Frankly I don't remember that ad.
Anyway I'll stop with this, it is not the subject of this thread.
 

Gessler

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if they can become like dr seema rao, then what's the problem?

IF they can become like Seema Rao is the question.

Not every man can become like Rambo either. That's why there are qualifications to select people above a certain required level. And there's no need to lower that level just because a woman too can make the grade.

Maybe it would be acceptable if we are fighting a guerrilla war of attrition where every able-bodied person (man, woman, and even child) is made to take up arms and fight. We are NOT in such a situation. There is no shortage of men for the Army....so why does anyone want women to fight? What's wrong in them being safe at home/office/desk jobs? It's not like we're gonna lose the war unless they fight, is it?

What's next? Equality for children? Equality for disabled people? Fat people?

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

The liberal nightmare is unfolding.
 

Nuvneet Kundu

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but then, the physical/medical requirements will also be defined. those who pass, will be subject to the training (for whichever role). and herein if they fail for any reason, the door out is always there. i don't think that there will be a 'bare minimum' beyond the candidature-stage. during training, if you are found lacking, no cajoling. either you pass or you dont.

P.S. - BTW, i fear times may come when the Forces could also see a jump in accusations of 'rape'; if you understand what i mean. :D
That's reasonable. Let the army and government consult each other and arrive at a consensus. Yes, that false rape problem will always be there, it is a political tool after all. Political parties use it, corporate use it to malign their competitors, women themselves use it as a blackmail tool. Once the genie is out of the box then no one can do anything. See how that Pachauri was removed due to public pressure mounted merely by an 'accusation', not even a conviction. Listen to the news reports shouting "how dare the institution hire a rape accused". BC anyone can accuse anyone. Opss, sorry, let me correct that, any woman can accuse any man (since the law is not gender-neutral). Jai ho feminism, jai ho. Abh laws bana diye hain toh bhugto.

@Keshav Murali I agree with you. How about we redefine the criteria based on capability (stamina) not features (height)? that would make it totally gender-neutral. Everyone who can carry X weight and finish a running course in Y time is selected, everyone else go home.

@Razor Reservations are not a 'thing' in the armed forces and intelligence wings. By 'thing' I mean they exist only nominally where the bureaucratic obligation imposes these rules for type C jobs which are filled through a government selection (peon, typist, cleaner, etc) beyond that, no reservation applies for actual analyst simply because the constitution does not recognize IB and RAW as an organization and they have not registered themselves either. Therefore, no constitutional rules can be forced upon an agency that does not exist on paper. They are neither a private company nor a PSU.
 
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Razor

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Maybe it would be acceptable if we are fighting a guerrilla war of attrition where every able-bodied person (man, woman, and even child) is made to take up arms and fight. We are NOT in such a situation. There is no shortage of men for the Army....so why does anyone want women to fight? What's wrong in them being safe at home/office/desk jobs? It's not like we're gonna lose the war unless they fight, is it?
As a matter of fact there is an overabundance of men in india.
PS: @pmaitra this also applies to the kurd situation you mentioned earlier. All out war implies use all resources.
 

alphacentury

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-turns-deserting-following-holiday-leave.html

The US Army's fourth-ever woman to serve in a combat position turned herself in to military authorities Thursday night after going AWOL for a whole month and gaining deserter status.

Erika Lopez 'turned herself in to proper military authorities' on the night after she was dropped from the rolls and considered a deserter, a military spokeswoman told Daily Mail Online.


'We will look at the facts and circumstances surrounding the situation and take appropriate action,' said Tiffany Wood, spokesperson for Fort Leonard Wood where Lopez is based.

Lopez was in her 11th week of training when she was sent home for convalescent leave in December. She was supposed to return to base on January 4.







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Erika Lopez enlisted in the Army last year and went missing in January. She turned herself in on Thursday




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Erika Lopez during her swearing-in ceremony last year. She returned Thursday after going AWOL for a month

Lopez enlisted in the Army last year as a combat engineer and started basic training in October, according to the Army Times.

Lopez was scheduled to return from convalescent leave to Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri on January 4 but went under the radar.

On Thursday, 30 days after she went missing, she was dropped from the rolls and considered a deserter.

'After 30 days in AWOL status, a soldier is considered a deserter, and a federal warrant is issued for his or her arrest,' Wood told the Army Times on Thursday.

Lopez was the fourth ever woman, and the first woman from her home state of Tennessee, to enlist in the military in a combat role, WVLT reported.

Combat engineers duties include constructing bridges and fighting positions, handling explosives, and clearing paths for soldiers in combat zones, according to an Army website.

Women gained access to serve in combat positions after a ban was lifted in 2013.


'Women can do anything they set their mind to just as well as men, I don't really see any difference at all. I hope women will want to join,' Lopez told WVLT in July.

Lopez is from Knoxville, Tennessee and is married with two children, the station reported.



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ng-following-holiday-leave.html#ixzz41AVKlARQ
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
 

alphacentury

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I largely agree with you. I will add though, the Kurds are doing great and they seem to fight as one unit, men and women together. Now, that might be an exception, not a norm.
I get feedback on my articles. For that I am grateful; it makes me think. Recently someone took issue with my claim that, in the military, where there are women there are no bullets and where there are bullets there are no women. How about the brave Kurdish women who are fighting Daesh? Don’t they make up 30-35 percent?

30-35 percent of what? I asked. After all, women make up nearly 30 percent of the Israel Defense Force. Nevertheless, in the so-called Second Lebanon War of 2006, 130 male soldiers were killed against just one female. The 66 IDF soldiers who died in operation Protective Edge in 2014 did not include a single woman. So just what do 30-35 percent mean?

Regarding the fighting Kurdish troops he answered rather brusquely. In support he sent these sites:

http://rudaw.net/english/kurdistan/28092014

http://www.syriadeeply.org/articles/2014/08/5923/isis-advances-kurdish-female-fighters-stand/

I opened them. They did not mention any figures on the ratio of brave Kurdish fighting females to brave Kurdish fighting males. And the headline? Here is what it read: “No Frontline Deployment for Female Kurdish Troops.”

What the article did say was that, in a place called Dobruk, there is or was a colonel who commanded “a 30-woman unit.” Strange, that: since when do colonels command platoons? Isn’t their job to command brigades in which there are normally 27 platoons as well as other units? Never mind. The purpose of the unit? “To show,” says the colonel, “that we are different from IS, which will never let women fight.” In other words, propaganda. Though whom the propaganda is intended for, the Kurds themselves or their slavering Western admirers, is left unsaid.

That business disposed of, I decided to do a little research. And yes, I did find a BBC article titled, “Kurdish women fighters wage war on Islamic State in Iraq (photo report).” It claimed that women made up some thirty percent. Thirty percent of exactly what? Military personnel (assuming that, in a place like Kurdistan, there is a clear distinction between the military and civilians)? All kinds of support troops? Fighters who actually hold a gun, fire at the enemy, and are fired at in return? The article provides no answers. What it does provide are nice-looking pictures of women posing with Kalashnikov assault rifles. So do a great many similar sites.

The words “photo report” are important. Many years ago, Nazi propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels used to tell his public that “pictures do not lie.” That, of course, was itself the greatest lie of all. I do not want to imply that the BBC was lying. Only that doing so with the aid of pictures is, if anything, easier than with words. One takes a good looking, somewhat dark-skinned, woman in some dilapidated-looking setting. One pays her a few dollars. Many women (and men) will help even without the dollars. Some will happily sell their grandmothers simply in order to appear on BBC News or some similar show. The paperwork having been settled, one puts her into something that looks more or less like a uniform. To add a local touch, her head may be adorned by a kefiyeh. One gives her the rifle which she does or does not know how to fire. One makes her stand up and pose, kneel and pose, lie down and pose. Easy.

Another article claims that the Kurdish Peshmerga have “hundreds” of female troops. Hundreds out of how many? 250,000, as The Guardian, 22.2.2015, claimed? And what do they actually do? Have “Daesh on the run,” as an article in Toronto Sun, published on 18.8.2015, claimed? Frankly, I did not know Daesh was on the run. The latest I read was that, according to US intelligence agencies, “Daesh remains as powerful today as it was in mid-2014. It can replace fighters faster than any other military organization on earth” (Albawaba News, Egypt, 13.8.2015). Notwithstanding that more than 60 countries, a third of the total, are trying to counter it. But back to the women. In proportion to their number in the Peshmerga, how many women fight weapon in hand? How many were killed or wounded? Nowhere could I find clear answers.

And why the Kurds? All Western armies now have legions of heroic fighting females. So why should anyone go all the way to Kurdistan, normally not the most important, progressive, or interesting place in the world, to hunt for them? Shouldn’t they be everywhere? Perhaps the history of the Greek Amazons provides an answer. Originally they were supposed to live in Phrygia, not far from the city of Troy which they vainly tried to save from the Greeks. Next, since they could not be found there, they shifted their habitat to the country north of the Black Sea. When they could not be found there they shifted their habitat to Libya. Next, since they could not be found they moved into the “frontiers of the inhabited world.” Or so the historian Diodorus, who wrote between about 60 and 30 BC, says.

Wherever Greek armies and colonists arrived they eagerly looked for Amazons. Failing to find them, they did their best to fake them. By one legend, the Amazon Queen Thalestris presented Alexander the Great with 300 of her subjects in the hope that they would conceive and have children as strong as he was. Perhaps because Alexander does not seem to have been terribly interested in women, though, nothing came of it. Some subsequent Greek and Roman rulers put captive “Amazons” on display during victory celebrations and the like. Freaks, they knew, always draw crowds.

From then to the present, the question has not been whether women fight in war. Except on rare occasions, usually such as are linked either to insurgencies or to last-ditch home defense, they do not. The question, rather, is why fighting females have such a strong hold on the male imagination.

For an answer, I shall select just example. In Berlin there is the world-famous Pergamon Museum. Inside the museum there is the altar built by King Eumenes II at some time between 200 and 150 BC. So stunning is it that I have seen visitors standing in front of it, speechless and unable to move

In the present context the important sculptures are those of Zeus, the father of the gods and the strongest among them by far, and his warrior daughter Athene. The unknown artist has portrayed Zeus as one would expect him to be, i.e. as the very image of a bare-chested, powerful, dominant male with muscles and pubic hair to match. Not so Athene who obviously presented the sculptor with a problem. On one hand she had to look robust (“Pallas,” in Greek, one of her epithets) in order to appear credible as a warrior. On the other she cannot be made to look too robust. Or else she will make her male partner in battle less credible. Besides, it is necessary to make clear that she is a woman. How to reconcile the conflicting demands? Here goes. Her arms, which are considerably weaker than those of Zeus, have been left exposed. There is no bare chest, no pubic hair. Instead the left half of her chest is encased by armor. The right one is covered by a thin, almost transparent, fabric that leaves her nipple clearly visible.

The combination of combat with cleavage continues to fascinate the male mind. Throughout history, that fascination has led to strange results. Down to the end of the nineteenth century female on female duels—there were a few—always drew crowds of leering men. Nowadays the same happens wherever a “catfight” is announced. Nothing like a couple of half-naked women bashing one another to get to get spectators on their feet! Meanwhile real fighting women remain as rare as they were when Alexander vainly looked for them.

Or else, conscious of his public relations as he was, merely pretended to do so.

http://www.martin-van-creveld.com/?p=386
 

alphacentury

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Feminisation of armed forces, pathetic.

How can Sunita and Anita climb vertical cliffs with 25 kg load while bullets passing over their ears.Could she handle the recolil of heavy weapon.


Last week a female Israeli soldier, Hadar (meaning, roughly, “Splendor,” or “Glory,”) Cohen, was killed in the course of duty. Two months into the Israel Defense Force, just two days after she had completed her basic training and taken the military oath of allegiance, she found herself standing guard at Old Jerusalem’s Damascus Gate. With her were another female soldier and some male comrades. Three terrorists (some would call them Palestinian freedom fighters) armed with knives, submachine guns which they concealed under their coats emerged. One terrorist stabbed and was able to wound the other female soldier before Hadar gunned him down, probably saving her comrade’s life. Thereupon a second terrorist turned on her and stabbed her to death before he and the third terrorist present were “wasted”—this is standard language—by her fellow soldiers. She was nineteen years old.

I did not know Hadar personally. Ere she was killed, I had never heard of her. By all accounts. she was what her name proclaimed her to be: namely, a splendid young woman with her entire future in front of her. Idealistic and determined to prove herself by serving her country as best she could, she volunteered to do a man’s job; i.e was trained to become what both the IDF and the media call a lohemet, meaning either “fighter” or “warrior.”

But do not allow yourself to be misled. The term does not mean she went through anything like a full infantryman’s course. No Israeli woman does, and of those who tried to do so on a more or less experimental basis many have been injured, some of them very badly. All it means is that she was taught how to use her weapon, apparently a shortened version of the M-16 rifle (the real thing would have been too long for her to operate efficiently), and put into a bulletproof vest. So equipped, she was made to stand guard at what is currently one of the most dangerous spots in Israel; dangerous in the sense that, over the last few weeks, it has been the scene of several more or less similar attacks.

Even in Israel, the only country in history which (to its shame, some would say) has conscripted women into its military, a dead or injured female soldier is no ordinary event. That explains the media circus that has been going on around the deceased girl. Hadar’s own funeral was attended by the minister of home security. Accompanied by his retinue, the Chief of Staff, Lieutenant General Eisenkot, came to visit the female injured soldier in hospital and saluted her in front of the cameras. Not to be outdone Prime Minister Netanyahu, normally not the most sensitive of men, did the same. Had the dead and injured soldiers been male, almost certainly none of them would have bothered. All three may have felt that there was something deeply wrong, morally speaking, in making Hadar stand guard as she did. Or else, which in Netanyahu’s case seems more likely, that doing so would provide yet another photo-op.

Ultimately the reason why there is something deeply wrong with having women guard men and sacrifice themselves for them, instead of the other way around, is rooted in our mammalian biology. As everyone knows, the mammalian female’s investment in conceiving the young, bearing them, and bringing them into the world is huge. Not so that of the male who takes just a few minutes to do what has to be done and withdraws. Females can only have so and so many offspring during their lifetime; for males, so large is the number as to be practically unlimited.

The mathematics of reproduction explain why, among many mammalian species, the lives of males count for much less than those of females. When there is a threat it is the males which defend the females, never the other way around. Among us humans, the dangers surrounding delivery—at one time, one woman in four used to die in or soon after childbirth—provide another reason why women should not be heedlessly sacrificed. Briefly, nature itself has made women the indispensable sex. Compared with men, in any society they are a biological treasure and must be preserved. Even if doing so costs the lives of men.

Elementary, my dear Watson, Sherlock Holmes would have said. Yet the members of that peculiar species, modern feminists, seem unable to grasp even the most elementary biological facts. Half a century after Betty Friedan raised the standard of revolt, their real motives in claiming the kind of equality that cost Hadar her life remain no less mysterious than the famous feminist mystique itself. Unless, of course, Freud was right and penis envy makes the world go round.

Poor Hadar. I am aware that some people on the other side would say that she got just what she deserved. Be that as it may, and putting politics aside, all she herself wanted was to “contribute” to her country. But apparently she could find no better way to do so than to do what men normally do and what nature, by giving them stronger bodies, has made them more fit to do. Now she is dead, and my heart goes out to her and her family. Yet I cannot help wondering whether, by getting married, giving birth to a couple of children, and raising them properly as a mother should her contribution would not have been greater than it was.

May her soul rest in peace.

http://www.martin-van-creveld.com/?p=542
 
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