@p2prada
I have a friend who is a veteran of IA and is a DRDO engineer now . His opinion of DRDO is exactly what you and
@Bhadra were claiming to be. He says DRDO is overfunded with several state of the art stuff but they never utilise it because it is just like any other typical Govt office where all the employees sit on their asses and do nothing. No wonder the projects are delayed so much.
And before the hypernationalistic morons who think they only have the moral right to critise stuff jump with crap about other stuff DRDO achieved, please take a moment to consider that they are just doing their damn job for which they are fully paid with the tax money we give. And getting something done does not mean they can sit their asses on other projects which are also paid from our tax money with no accountability
PS:
@p2prada , Is there any significance to the number 10000 ? Seriously, considering the abuse you get here, its a wonder why you have lasted here so long. Anyway, I just liked all the posts in this thread because they are very informative and also for acknowledging your good work here before you leave. Thanks for the info:thumb:
There are no questions about asking accountability about our tax payer's money squandered in DRDO projects. It helps bring objectivity and informed debate based on knowledgeable public opinion in critical field of strategic issues.
there are many labs which function well. And many don't. Piece meal funding due to the lack of foresight on civilians and sly hand of import lobbies too play a part.
And many talented young eng graduates shun PSUs and govt research organizations like DRDO for better opportunities and richer fashionable lifestyles.
But still there are many who stay back fight the system and deliver the results, like in Arjun , tejas and many other programs. They should not be crucified on public forums like this. Because many youngsters coming here for knowledge will think that all PSUs and govt labs are bad.
The mars mission of ISRO fires the imagination of young kids and motivate them to join it in future. In the same way successful products from at least few dept s of DRDO will motivate youngsters to join DRDO atleast in those successful labs. Painting everything with black paint bucket is running a prejudiced campaign, nothing else.
but that does not mean that the methods of arguments used by the guy you just congratulated as fair. Just few days ago he lied in tejas-IV thread that it was ADA which is going to pay for all the engines of production versions of Tejas and the HAL cost of 162 crore for tejas mk-1 does not include tejas engines!!!
which was refuted with proof by another member , giving GE official link that it was HAL that is buying engines for Tejas,
And imported systems are always optimized for their home environs. In electronics of critical systems like tanks, jet engine thrusts and air frame designs in planes are optimized for their home country environs. They don't always produce the expected results here.
For example due to the hotter climates here , which reduce engine trust by 10 percent and wing lift by 12 percent, Mig-21s are dangerous for young pilots in lower atmosphere and landings.
Since it was designed as a nothing but an interceptor of high altitude world war two era massed era bombers with no concern for range and pay load, it is dangerously unstable once two thirds of its fuel is consumed.
It came without even a radar to india. Its original mission was to high fly and fast according to ground based instructions and sight the enemy targets based on those instructions and then engage them. It was designed without any consideration for a BVR fight, or multi role specs and stand alone operations.
S it was to fly fast according to ground control and engage the enemy fighters or bombers on visual cue. Only in upgrades a small 45 km tracking range radar was added as an after thought.
It can not even sustain its top speed of mach 2 more than a few minutes. By then all its fuel will be consumed and engine life would hve been considerably reduced. And neither is it agile at these speeds.
Top speeds are superfluous as Missiles fly at mach 4, there is no point in imposing weight penalty for structural strength due to higher topspeeds , which can be supported only for a minute or two, Thats why 209 million dollar per pice rafale with two engines is limited to a top speed of mach 1.8 lesser than Mig-21.Can that guy say that rafale is inferior to Mig-21?
Because nowadays instantaneous turn rate (ITR) is what counts. fighters have to suddenly change their direction to avoid the missile which can go faster at mach 4, but can't turn as sudden as a fighter.
That's why fighters like rafale gripen,and tejas are built with relaxed static stability tail less delta airframe that gives the best ITR.
In contrast tejas was built as a true multi role fighter with a naval version. It can carry twice the fuel of mig-21, twice the weapon loads of mig-21, see targets twice the range of Mig-21, fire missiles twice the distance of Mig-21, but with an empty weight only marginally higher than Mig-21!!!
It follows 4 channel digital fly by wire , low RCS, relaxed static stability airframe(more agility to counter air to air missiles) all of which are found on every latest 4.5th gen fighter like rafale which costs 5 times higher than tejas mk-2.
Simply tejas mk-2 takes the base line of IAF fighting capability to a level closer to latest F-16 version. According to test pilot Suneet Krishna's version even in mk-1 version tejas is superior to Mirage-2000 upgraded with 45 million dollar per plane upgrade by IAF.
To say mig-21 is superior because it has higher speeds than rafale and tejas is like saying that my cycle is more faster with carrying loads compared to your tractor.It makes no sense.
this guy knows that fully well. But not many people who are not informed about aerodynamics can understand the nuances.he uses it to ply his fatally flawed trade saying tejas can not achieve mig-21 top speeds so its design is draggy.
In the same way lets take range, rafale with no loads other than two drop tanks flew from france to reunion islands needing 5 refuelling for 10000 Kms is the official press release. So the range for this particular combo comes to 2000 Km.
In the same way PIB on tejas mk1 IOC-2 says that tejas can fly to destinations over 1700 Km non stop(we don know whether this is with or wihout two drop tanks).By that time tejas has validated only two external fuel tanks like the rafale config for the above mentioned flight.Even if we take the worstcase scenario that this 1700 Km range is with two external fuel tanks, tejas's 1700 Km ferry range compares not so bad with rafale.
Tejas has lesser internal fuel than rafale. So naturally a shortage of 300 Km is expected. So it simply shows that tejas air frame is as efficient in drag management as that of rafale. but this guy is insisting for years that tejas has wrongly designed draggy air frame, by cleverly citing a CEMILAC report which pertains to flight speeds above mach1!!!!
For laymen this may seem correct. But the supersonic wave drag in speeds higher than sound has no relation to a fighters ITR, STR and range, Why? Because all of these are under taken at speeds below sound, where there is no supersonic wave drag!!!
Fighters go supersonic only to release their air to air missiles for higher ranges and then rivert back to sub sonic flight. Only F-22 can keep on flying most of its flight profile at speeds above mach 1. Others don't do.
For more than two years he is using this stupid piece of "shortcomings of tejas "(all fictional!!!) to pose as an aerodynamic expert attuned to the needs of IAF!!!
I being a BE graduate was tired sick of this stuff , silenly watching him frothing at the mouth with al lously howls of accusations for more than two years. Then got fed up and stuck into him as it is an insult to one's basic intelligence to see a forum meant for indian defenc to be degraded with totally BS false claims.
T-90 is less finished product than arjun at present with crew fainting cramped internal compartment not suited to indian desert theatre and hot Punjab plains which is its primarily place of duty. Its electronics pack up in the heat which were rectified after it was bought in hundreds. Still the IA has not succeeded in fitting an AC to keep the crew alive for prolonged periods. these issues came to the fore only in operation parakram time with army sending an SOS.
Su-30 MKis frequently encounter engine failures and its avionics go balnk in midair , a couple crashed due to bugs in fly by wire tech. But it is being worked upon , that does not mean it is an inferior product. The same standards to be applied for all india producs too.
The delays in FOc for tejas is no concern as it is made out to be by many journos. F-35 after 100 planes in sevice yet to get even its IOC!!! FOC wil be only after 500. PAF has inducted JF-17s with no concept of IOC and FOC.
Compared to that ADA has fully certified tejas for reliable operations and air to air close combat with R-73 missiles in FOC -2 itself.
money was paid for 40 Su-30s in billions of dollars in 1990s. What we got was non weaponized 40 Su-30s which were not upto MKI standards. IAF "honed their flying tactics " on them and late they were returned for newer Su-30 MKI.
Mirage-2000 had nothing but a gun for three years after induction into IAF.
SO facts need to be presented in a logical manner for a knowledgeable debate. That guy's motive is light years way from that.
Forward the above arguments as yours and ask that guy to reply with multi quotes, you will know what is his motive.
he is not alone, there are many guys like this in forums and posin as defence journos with a sole aim of spreading misinformation.
Just like te mother in law of Tejas who wrote the piece "The ails of LCA" in his blog. All the unknown comments in that blog are mine and from another member here, he is yet to give a coherent reply to any one of them. Guess what, this mother in law is a retired IIT mech engineering professor!!!!
