Indian Special Forces

[rkhanna]

I am afraid that all your brainstorming is going to be in vain because in my humble opinion saving all 300 hostages is a task as difficult as ascending to the heavens.
First, your numbers are limited and the terrorist(I am assuming Manipur PLA here) are in their home base having numbers much higher than you. And it's not like Myanmar will allow your helicopters in its territory to bomb these terrorist right?
Secondly, let's assume by god's grace you end up securing 300 of those hostages then what after that? Will you take them on a bus or make them run to the nearest airport or a landing strip? In any of the mentioned scenarios, many people will be killed. PLA is trained and organized like the armed forces they would have many checkposts they will regroup and kill you.

By any means, I am not belittling your attempts but I feel the way this war game discussion is not up to the mark.
We should start with a few fundamental questions before discussing which unit will take part and which will not:

1. Role of Myanmar:
Myanmar is not a pushover. We should first decide which side Myanmar stands on. If it's on our side then will it aid us or will it be a mute spectator? If not, then what should be the game plan?

2. Terrorist:
Organistaion of terrorist will matter a lot. If they belong to grps like PLA then difficulty will increase manyfolds.

3. Mode of transport
Will you use aircraft to transport the hostages to India? If yes, how will make sure those 300 reach the aircraft? running jogging? What is the neareast airport/landing strip blah blah blah many such scenario.

We shouldn't make this war game a next Eagle Claw
What do you say @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR ?

IMO the Brainstorming is valid. keep in mind we do not know the location of the target, terrain around it. It is supposedly near the Thai border. Distance too and from Indian broder etc.

THAT being said the Israelis have done it at entebe, the Americans attempted it in Iran, we successfully have done it in Sierre Leone.

The hows and where and what is for the people in the know.

We eithe have the capability or we dont. and this includes Diplimatic muscle to rope in the Thais if needed or keep the Myanmar Military at bay.

Each point could have multiple solutions including landing a C130 on a Temp Landing Strip. - this is where Garud would earn their butter.

 

[STORE]

Para has done many such ops.. most famous one being in Africa. rescuing Gorkha rifles.

If am not wrong British SAS , Ghanian and Nigerian soldiers where also involved. The British guided helcopters and provided Chinook and C-130.

 

[rkhanna]

If am not wrong British SAS , Ghanian and Nigerian soldiers where also involved. The British guided helcopters and provided Chinook and C-130.

D sqadron SAS lent us their Chinook. That's all.

The SAS ran another op in SL but before Op Kukri

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Nah not really. If they are deep in the jungles held in huts and such then 21 SF are probably the best to send.

but if they are in an urban setting spread across multiple targets where booby traps/IEDs and civilians are present then no one gets even close to NSG.

I made the point that NSG aren’t really designed to operate in non-permissive environments and thus a SF force could be of use to support them although the NSG does have *some* SOPs to tackle this (SRG and their support weapons squadron) but it’s not really designed to go abroad.

as previously stated- india is not setup with a perfect or clear option, everything will be a compromise. But I will say PARA SF shouldn’t be viewed as a hostage rescue force in any shape or form.

Over estimation of NSG and underestimation of Para SF.

First of all, without airborne assets there is no way NSG would make it to the target.

Secondly, even if they reach this will be jungle warfare and not urban op. Which i doubt how better NSG would be over Para Sf and specially 21.

Then, Para SF has done many of these ops in the last 30 years from Kashmir to Africa and also in north east.

Nobody called NSG ever for these ops.. GOCs dont have their number. (sarcasm)except for maybe one or two times.

NSG has no intel and there is no way 21 would be called in for intel only.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

I am afraid that all your brainstorming is going to be in vain because in my humble opinion saving all 300 hostages is a task as difficult as ascending to the heavens.
First, your numbers are limited and the terrorist(I am assuming Manipur PLA here) are in their home base having numbers much higher than you. And it's not like Myanmar will allow your helicopters in its territory to bomb these terrorist right?
Secondly, let's assume by god's grace you end up securing 300 of those hostages then what after that? Will you take them on a bus or make them run to the nearest airport or a landing strip? In any of the mentioned scenarios, many people will be killed. PLA is trained and organized like the armed forces they would have many checkposts they will regroup and kill you.

By any means, I am not belittling your attempts but I feel the way this war game discussion is not up to the mark.
We should start with a few fundamental questions before discussing which unit will take part and which will not:

1. Role of Myanmar:
Myanmar is not a pushover. We should first decide which side Myanmar stands on. If it's on our side then will it aid us or will it be a mute spectator? If not, then what should be the game plan?

2. Terrorist:
Organistaion of terrorist will matter a lot. If they belong to grps like PLA then difficulty will increase manyfolds.

3. Mode of transport
Will you use aircraft to transport the hostages to India? If yes, how will make sure those 300 reach the aircraft? running jogging? What is the neareast airport/landing strip blah blah blah many such scenario.

We shouldn't make this war game a next Eagle Claw
What do you say @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR ?

Without Myanmar support we cannot do this at all.

Then comes which unit... I would put a unit that has an advantage.

Jatt, Marathi, Tamil, punjabi, Gorkha etc operators of NSG would look odd easily plus they have no advantage of language.

I would choose 21 SF operators as they are the experts of this area and the terrain.

In and out is not the question as it will be only with Myanmar support or it wont be there if there is no support.

after Recon the question of execution comes which will be best with 21 and maybe a secondary unit which can be 12

 

[OFBkaRakhwala]

D sqadron SAS lent us their Chinook. That's all.

The SAS ran another op in SL but before Op Kukri

Talking about operation barras?

 

[vidhwanshak]

If you can’t even launch a hostage rescue op on a neighbouring country with the kind of military and economic disparity present between india and Myanmar then it says everything about India’s strategic culture.

operation eagle claw was outrageously audacious in its scope- creating a FARP deep behind enemy lines and then planning to land c130s into stadiums to fly hostages out using rockets, you need to risk it to win sometimes

That said not wanting to repeat mistakes by others is also not a policy to follow- it makes you timid and weak. From failure you grow and learn. After operation eagle claw JSOC was created.

perhaps india needs something like a Grenada of their own, use its forces so overwhelmingly to demonstrate power, validate tactics and impose a war fighting culture on a largely peacetime military.

If you can’t even launch a hostage rescue op on a neighbouring country with the kind of military and economic disparity present between india and Myanmar then it says everything about India’s strategic culture.

Nope, at the end of the day your main objectives is to secure those hostages right? How will you ensure their survivalability when you piss Mayanmaar off by showing their economic and military disparity?
No doubt, you wil secure a military victory but those 300 of them would be killed.
Doing a ops to save 30-50 people is still doable without Mayanmaar support but securing 300 of them is very difficult.
Plus You all are ignoring political repurcussions of such missions. If a mission like this would fail, then winning the next elections would be very difficult for the party in power.
According to me, the mission to save 300 hostages is impossible without Mayanmmar's support and it is nothing but another op desert claw.

perhaps india needs something like a Grenada of their own, use its forces so overwhelmingly to demonstrate power, validate tactics and impose a war fighting culture on a largely peacetime military.

I whole heartedly agree.

IMO the Brainstorming is valid. keep in mind we do not know the location of the target, terrain around it. It is supposedly near the Thai border. Distance too and from Indian broder etc.

THAT being said the Israelis have done it at entebe, the Americans attempted it in Iran, we successfully have done it in Sierre Leone.

The hows and where and what is for the people in the know.

We eithe have the capability or we dont. and this includes Diplimatic muscle to rope in the Thais if needed or keep the Myanmar Military at bay.

Each point could have multiple solutions including landing a C130 on a Temp Landing Strip. - this is where Garud would earn their butter.

THAT being said the Israelis have done it at entebe, the Americans attempted it in Iran, we successfully have done it in Sierre Leone.


No, Op entebe was different. There were hardly 10 hijackers and a hostile nation Uganda. The mission was doable but here we are talking about Manipur PLA they have a strength in 1000s and you will be fighting in their home base. Entebe and this is different, no doubt about that.
And op khukri is also different. Soldiers were under seige and were not taken hostages. Also, soldiers would not be a burden after getting rescued unlike the civillian hostages.


We eithe have the capability or we dont. and this includes Diplimatic muscle to rope in the Thais if needed or keep the Myanmar Military at bay.

I have no doubt about military capability. We need a force to hold the outnumbered PLA terrorists. That force can be Mayanmar/Thailand or any other military/terrorist group.
Everything boils down to the assets that RAW has planted there.
Let's go by the location you provided and assume Mayanmmar is hostile towards us.
According to me the best course of action would be as follows:
1. Asking a group to fight PLA in a full-blown war by promising them hefty benefits.
2. Using your SEAD/DEAD capabilities to destroy Mayanmmars Air defence
3. Sending your figher jets and aircraft to engage JF-17s and dropping the soldiers to resuce the hostages.
4. Asking Thailand to provide safe passage to soldiers and hostages and engaging Mayanmarese at Thailand border.

You see there are many variables involved. And the relationship between Thailand Mayanmaar isn't that sour for a border clash between them.

 

[vidhwanshak]

Without Myanmar support we cannot do this at all.

Then comes which unit... I would put a unit that has an advantage.

Jatt, Marathi, Tamil, punjabi, Gorkha etc operators of NSG would look odd easily plus they have no advantage of language.

I would choose 21 SF operators as they are the experts of this area and the terrain.

In and out is not the question as it will be only with Myanmar support or it wont be there if there is no support.

after Recon the question of execution comes which will be best with 21 and maybe a secondary unit which can be 12

Without Myanmar support we cannot do this at all.
Yes, I support this notion of yours.


I would choose 21 SF operators as they are the experts of this area and the terrain.

In and out is not the question as it will be only with Myanmar support or it wont be there if there is no support.

after Recon the question of execution comes which will be best with 21 and maybe a secondary unit which can be 12.

Why not a team which conists a majority of 21 PARA SF and the rest, best of the best drawn from other units like SG, NSG, 9, 12 or even crpf commandos who are fighting in jungles ?
It's not like the team woul need to walk towards the objective... they would be para dropped and the fight would beigin.Let's say after securing the hostages, 21 PARA SF would act as a navigator till the group reaches Thailand border.

 

[OFBkaRakhwala]

Why not a team which conists a majority of 21 PARA SF and the rest, best of the best drawn from other units like SG, NSG, 9, 12 or even crpf commandos who are fighting in jungles ?

Team hain ki khane ki recipe

 

[vidhwanshak]

Team hain ki khane ki recipe

sahi baat hai.
21 PARA SF hi thik hai.
warna idhar udhar ki kheechadi banegi to ops karne me bhi mushkil hoga kyuki same training nahi hai kisi ki.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Without Myanmar support we cannot do this at all.
Yes, I support this notion of yours.


I would choose 21 SF operators as they are the experts of this area and the terrain.

In and out is not the question as it will be only with Myanmar support or it wont be there if there is no support.

after Recon the question of execution comes which will be best with 21 and maybe a secondary unit which can be 12.

Why not a team which conists a majority of 21 PARA SF and the rest, best of the best drawn from other units like SG, NSG, 9, 12 or even crpf commandos who are fighting in jungles ?
It's not like the team woul need to walk towards the objective... they would be para dropped and the fight would beigin.Let's say after securing the hostages, 21 PARA SF would act as a navigator till the group reaches Thailand border.

because of the reason that in my interaction with para sf operators and specially jawans i found that they dont like to trust operators from other sf because of their brotherhood they believe too much in their brothers and their sacrifice and dont have the same respect for others

i will explain with an example.. in one op in the valley the para sf was divided and a new team was made including rr and para sf.

para sf regrouped and did their own thing and said they cannot operate with others.

they wont say it but they have trust issues.


And hahaha RR is still respected very well by the para.. garuds and marcos and cobra.. no chance.

 

[vidhwanshak]

because of the reason that in my interaction with para sf operators and specially jawans i found that they dont like to trust operators from other sf because of their brotherhood they believe too much in their brothers and their sacrifice and dont have the same respect for others

i will explain with an example.. in one op in the valley the para sf was divided and a new team was made including rr and para sf.

para sf regrouped and did their own thing and said they cannot operate with others.

they wont say it but they have trust issues.


And hahaha RR is still respected very well by the para.. garuds and marcos and cobra.. no chance.

I don't think that such emotion will be welcomed in AFSOD(provided that it materializes one day).

 

[OFBkaRakhwala]

I don't think that such emotion will be welcomed in AFSOD(provided that it materializes one day).

Creating a new unit is different from slapping different guys from different units together. SG doesn't has this issue just as proof

 

[Tactical Doge]

View attachment 173203

Ghatak

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

I don't think that such emotion will be welcomed in AFSOD(provided that it materializes one day).

When it comes we will watch.. until then it's just a fetish topic.

Moreover i doubt the best of Para will even go there.

 

[OFBkaRakhwala]

When it comes we will watch.. until then it's just a fetish topic.

Moreover i doubt the best of Para will even go there.

While this is going on here is my conspiracy theory that the Army commanders think that the control of the older Para SF btns will be handed over to AFSOD and army will be left with no sof element within their own control so they converted para into para Sf

 

[Scramjet]

While this is going on here is my conspiracy theory that the Army commanders think that the control of the older Para SF btns will be handed over to AFSOD and army will be left with no sof element within their own control so they converted para into para Sf

SF Battalions had several allowances that regular Abn Bns didn't. Plus they ran similiar ops in kashmir and NE (as per senior regular para "commandos" officers) there is no difference b/w SF and regular para, now you know why

Also, I just got to know that Most of the airborne-->SF Bn conversion was all about transfer of personnel already serving in SFs as very few regular para guys were able to make the cut. Take this with a truckload of salt.

 

[OFBkaRakhwala]

SF Battalions had several allowances that regular Abn Bns didn't. Plus they ran similiar ops in kashmir and NE (as per senior regular para "commandos" officers) there is no difference b/w SF and regular para, now you know why

Also, I just got to know that Most of the airborne-->SF Bn conversion was all about transfer of personnel already serving in SFs as very few regular para guys were able to make the cut. Take this with a truckload of salt.

So they transferred guys from one battalion to another? Weren't the SF battalions already understaffed and what happens to the airborne guys who failed the probation

 

[Kumaoni]

Nope, at the end of the day your main objectives is to secure those hostages right? How will you ensure their survivalability when you piss Mayanmaar off by showing their economic and military disparity?
No doubt, you wil secure a military victory but those 300 of them would be killed.
Doing a ops to save 30-50 people is still doable without Mayanmaar support but securing 300 of them is very difficult.
Plus You all are ignoring political repurcussions of such missions. If a mission like this would fail, then winning the next elections would be very difficult for the party in power.
According to me, the mission to save 300 hostages is impossible without Mayanmmar's support and it is nothing but another op desert claw.



I whole heartedly agree.



THAT being said the Israelis have done it at entebe, the Americans attempted it in Iran, we successfully have done it in Sierre Leone.


No, Op entebe was different. There were hardly 10 hijackers and a hostile nation Uganda. The mission was doable but here we are talking about Manipur PLA they have a strength in 1000s and you will be fighting in their home base. Entebe and this is different, no doubt about that.
And op khukri is also different. Soldiers were under seige and were not taken hostages. Also, soldiers would not be a burden after getting rescued unlike the civillian hostages.


We eithe have the capability or we dont. and this includes Diplimatic muscle to rope in the Thais if needed or keep the Myanmar Military at bay.

I have no doubt about military capability. We need a force to hold the outnumbered PLA terrorists. That force can be Mayanmar/Thailand or any other military/terrorist group.
Everything boils down to the assets that RAW has planted there.
Let's go by the location you provided and assume Mayanmmar is hostile towards us.
According to me the best course of action would be as follows:
1. Asking a group to fight PLA in a full-blown war by promising them hefty benefits.
2. Using your SEAD/DEAD capabilities to destroy Mayanmmars Air defence
3. Sending your figher jets and aircraft to engage JF-17s and dropping the soldiers to resuce the hostages.
4. Asking Thailand to provide safe passage to soldiers and hostages and engaging Mayanmarese at Thailand border.

You see there are many variables involved. And the relationship between Thailand Mayanmaar isn't that sour for a border clash between them.

It’s a strategic blunder that india let Myanmar slip into chinese grasps under American pressure

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

SF Battalions had several allowances that regular Abn Bns didn't. Plus they ran similiar ops in kashmir and NE (as per senior regular para "commandos" officers) there is no difference b/w SF and regular para, now you know why

Also, I just got to know that Most of the airborne-->SF Bn conversion was all about transfer of personnel already serving in SFs as very few regular para guys were able to make the cut. Take this with a truckload of salt.

@rkhanna might wanna come in