Indian Special Forces

rkhanna

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we cannot be good judges of the ENTIRE Army.
Oh I dont judge the entire Army. Just Ofsars above a certain rank because then they turn into Politicians anyways. ofcourse there are exceptions like our current CDS.

Let me tell you a story. few months before Kargil the Indian Army Wargamed a senario with Pakistan at Corp level. a Young Enthusiastic officer employed an unconventional Tactic as the OPFOR and defeated the IA side of war gamers. the Referee's deemd the young officers strategy as a cheat as nobody in their right mind would pull such a strategy. Few months later that was EXACTLY how the Pakistani's occupied the highest overlooking Kargil.

Tell me does the current Small Purchase program inspire confidence? The Fact that we are upgrading our BMP's to 2000 levels only after realizing Oh SHIT we may have to fight an actual war against China?

Hell there is ample evidence of a faction within the Army that Sabotaged the Arjun tanks for YEARS during trials. Only stopped with DRDO finally put a blackbox inside to record data.

Lets face a large chunk of our Army Headshed is risk averse. You can see the pattern in a whole bunch of things including Calling in a SF Squad every time you have militants trapped inside a CASO Ring. I truely believe 30 years of fighting COIN has made us rusty. Zero forward thinking.

The world just witnessed a whole war fought and won quickly using cheap Swarm drones made by Turkey. Do we not think they can find their way to the jihadis in Kashmir? We needed a strike at an AF installation to wake up?

On the other hand i admire the AF. They know they will take decades to come to 42 Squadrons. If they manage 36 by 2030 itself will be a huge fleet. They know they will have to look at China and Pakistan together at the same time as well as keep the coast safe. Keep in mind that the Chinese could pump out ~200+ J-20s in a decade. How do they (IAF) achieve it with No money or MIC to support them. They are turning to value add enablers like the Stealth CATS Drones Program interlinked with a Mothership (LCA/MKI) and Swarm Drones as force multipliers. Evens the odds alot.

The AMCA tech domonstrator + the CATS program could actually allow us to leapfrog from the LCA mkII to a 6th Gen UCAV
 
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HawkisRight

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Well the while point of a SOF capability is to operate in denied Areas. This includes solutions/technology for infil and exfil. The SOKOs and Israelis routinely do raids / recce missions deep inside NoKo and Iran.

Simple fact is that we have gotten happy winning medals and promotions doing COIN. We were NoT ready during Kargil and we were ready last year against rh chinese. Sheer grit of the Jawan gets the job done.

The only people who are planning to win in a future environment seems to be the AF and to an extent the Navy - and they don't really do COIN do they
Air force flying vintage 60s mig 21, air force which complaints about air superiority of enemy bvr's after 27feb, air force which is having problems with keeping enough fighting squadrons...Yup air force is planning future warfare but has issues flying in present day warfare...air force is actually the weakest link in all three services
 
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HawkisRight

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Oh I dont judge the entire Army. Just Ofsars above a certain rank because then they turn into Politicians anyways. ofcourse there are exceptions like our current CDS.

Let me tell you a story. few months before Kargil the Indian Army Wargamed a senario with Pakistan at Corp level. a Young Enthusiastic officer employed an unconventional Tactic as the OPFOR and defeated the IA side of war gamers. the Referee's deemd the young officers strategy as a cheat as nobody in their right mind would pull such a strategy. Few months later that was EXACTLY how the Pakistani's occupied the highest overlooking Kargil.

Tell me does the current Small Purchase program inspire confidence? The Fact that we are upgrading our BMP's to 2000 levels only after realizing Oh SHIT we may have to fight an actual war against China?

Hell there is ample evidence of a faction within the Army that Sabotaged the Arjun tanks for YEARS during trials. Only stopped with DRDO finally put a blackbox inside to record data.

Lets face a large chunk of our Army Headshed is risk averse. You can see the pattern in a whole bunch of things including Calling in a SF Squad every time you have militants trapped inside a CASO Ring. I truely believe 30 years of fighting COIN has made us rusty. Zero forward thinking.

The world just witnessed a whole war fought and won quickly using cheap Swarm drones made by Turkey. Do we not think they can find their way to the jihadis in Kashmir? We needed a strike at an AF installation to wake up?

On the other hand i admire the AF. They know they will take decades to come to 42 Squadrons. If they manage 36 by 2030 itself will be a huge fleet. They know they will have to look at China and Pakistan together at the same time as well as keep the coast safe. Keep in mind that the Chinese could pump out ~200+ J-20s in a decade. How do they (IAF) achieve it with No money or MIC to support them. They are turning to value add enablers like the Stealth CATS Drones Program interlinked with a Mothership (LCA/MKI) and Swarm Drones as force multipliers. Evens the odds alot.

The AMCA tech domonstrator + the CATS program could actually allow us to leapfrog from the LCA mkII to a 6th Gen UCAV
Amca + cats IS NOT 6th Gen..At best amca wid cats will be 5.5 gen whenever it comes into production in next decade... Americans will decide what is 6th gen.. Murica is ONLY country which developed and is flying True 5th gen fighter from last 15 years .. Generational Fighter is American concept So muricans will define what is 6th gen...Let Indian air force retire its vintage mig21s first
 

Chakraborty

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One question.
What is the sff exactly???
An airborne light infantry?
Special operations capable (SOC) light infantry?
Special operations force (SOF)?
Reconnaissance troops?
I know they are elite paramilitary meant to do covert and clandestine ops.
But that is a bit ambiguous. What kind of role do they perform? Like that of elite infantry troopers(like rangers?) Or like a SOF?
In 71's war they performed mainly direct action but with significant efficiency along with very less casualty(49)that is beyond the capability of normal infantry.( like raids, sabotage, ambush). Previous year they captured two hill tops with only 1 casualty. They perform reconnaissance patrols in extreme mountainous terrains. And during cold war era they did intelligence operations of tremendous magnitude that only SOFs can do(though they were supported by USA but it was our men who did it).
There is no doubt that these guys are tough, professional, mysterious and definitely no ordinary infantryman.
It will be helpful if anyone clarifies what is the sff actually?
Regards.
 

Col Habib zahir

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One question.
What is the sff exactly???
An airborne light infantry?
Special operations capable (SOC) light infantry?
Special operations force (SOF)?
Reconnaissance troops?
I know they are elite paramilitary meant to do covert and clandestine ops.
But that is a bit ambiguous. What kind of role do they perform? Like that of elite infantry troopers(like rangers?) Or like a SOF?
In 71's war they performed mainly direct action but with significant efficiency along with very less casualty(49)that is beyond the capability of normal infantry.( like raids, sabotage, ambush). Previous year they captured two hill tops with only 1 casualty. They perform reconnaissance patrols in extreme mountainous terrains. And during cold war era they did intelligence operations of tremendous magnitude that only SOFs can do(though they were supported by USA but it was our men who did it).
There is no doubt that these guys are tough, professional, mysterious and definitely no ordinary infantryman.
It will be helpful if anyone clarifies what is the sff actually?
Regards.
Para sf

images (5).jpeg
 

rkhanna

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Amca + cats IS NOT 6th Gen..At best amca wid cats will be 5.5 gen whenever it comes into production in next decade... Americans will decide what is 6th gen.. Murica is ONLY country which developed and is flying True 5th gen fighter from last 15 years .. Generational Fighter is American concept So muricans will define what is 6th gen...Let Indian air force retire its vintage mig21s first
Re read what I have written
 

rkhanna

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Air force flying vintage 60s mig 21, air force which complaints about air superiority of enemy bvr's after 27feb, air force which is having problems with keeping enough fighting squadrons...Yup air force is planning future warfare but has issues flying in present day warfare...air force is actually the weakest link in all three services
The issues of the present day are not AF centric. They are budget centric. If you look at the tip of the spear. MKI, M2KUPG, Mig29UPG, Rafale, LCA, Darin I/III, MiG-21upg/Bisons not too shabby just low in number.

Our strategic lift is probably the best in Asia.

SAM/ELINT/AWACS/EW also pretty good

CAT + AI driven networked warfare will add a new dimension which will make up for the lower numbers.
 

Sir pe tapla

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Well the while point of a SOF capability is to operate in denied Areas. This includes solutions/technology for infil and exfil. The SOKOs and Israelis routinely do raids / recce missions deep inside NoKo and Iran.

Simple fact is that we have gotten happy winning medals and promotions doing COIN. We were NoT ready during Kargil and we were ready last year against rh chinese. Sheer grit of the Jawan gets the job done.

The only people who are planning to win in a future environment seems to be the AF and to an extent the Navy - and they don't really do COIN do they
Israeli SF did this? Can you provide name of operation or source? I want to learn more.
 

Sir pe tapla

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We had CIT-X and CIT-J in the old times
If he had an espionage network in place, you don't need Fancy stealth helos and ew stuff
All they need to do is poison his water supply or something, or even better plant an IED under some manhole and blow his a$$
Credits: my wet dreams and a hint of bollywood
I was talking about people complaining about not using Indian special forces for killing Hafiz saeed.

I agree with you on espionage acts.
 

Sir pe tapla

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Air force flying vintage 60s mig 21, air force which complaints about air superiority of enemy bvr's after 27feb, air force which is having problems with keeping enough fighting squadrons...Yup air force is planning future warfare but has issues flying in present day warfare...air force is actually the weakest link in all three services
It IS planning for future warfare.

We have Netra II, LCA Tejas, Tejas mk1A, and mk II, Super Sukhoi upgrade, LCH, ALH, logistics plane purchases, ALL of that being done in this decade.

I haven't even included in Airforce commitment towards indigenous missiles.

All of this being done so as to ensure that we will be ready in the skies by the next decade.

Airforce is already addressing the problems of migs and they will be retired by 2024 or 2025

What more do you want?
 

HawkisRight

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The issues of the present day are not AF centric. They are budget centric. If you look at the tip of the spear. MKI, M2KUPG, Mig29UPG, Rafale, LCA, Darin I/III, MiG-21upg/Bisons not too shabby just low in number.

Our strategic lift is probably the best in Asia.

SAM/ELINT/AWACS/EW also pretty good

CAT + AI driven networked warfare will add a new dimension which will make up for the lower numbers.
Nah sirji i hv to disagree...maybe we have best strategic lift capabilities But dat doesn't compensate for low numbers of fighting squadrons..And No we don't have enough awacs as we found it out hard ways in 27th Fiasco..EW capabilities maybe we r good at it Looking at balakot operation.. about bisons they shouldn't be flying it in d first place..mki,jags,rafale all good But still we need numbers..And tejas mk2 can be dat wonderkid for IAF if them gernails make right decisions mk2 can be mass produced to built up squadrons wid private manufacturers..And budget will be always proportional to economy..as economy grows capital expenditure will increase..
 
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rkhanna

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Nah sirji i hv to disagree...maybe we have best strategic lift capabilities But dat doesn't compensate for low numbers of fighting squadrons..And No we don't have enough awacs as we found it out hard ways in 27th Fiasco..EW capabilities maybe we r good at it Looking at balakot operation.. about bisons they shouldn't be flying it in d first place..mki,jags,rafale all good But still we need numbers..And tejas mk2 can be dat wonderkid for IAF if them gernails make right decisions mk2 can be mass produced to built up squadrons..And budget will be always proportional to economy..as economy grows capital expenditure will increase..
You are missing my point. AF current state of affairs has less to do with the AF and more to do with everything else. The AF however given its resource crutch is still looking to punch above its weight. It's trainig tactics continue to evolve. It continues to fill gaps in novel ways.

The 27th was not a fiasco. Maybe there is a lot you need to learn and read up on DAC.


The Pakistanis despite overwhelming numerical advantage could not breach the line. The chinese won't be able to do so easily either. The CDS is already talking about rocket forces.

Lastly we are 2000 dollar per capita GDP economy. Mig21s are a fact of life. And a MiG-21 shot down a block40+ f-16
 

rkhanna

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Yup and dats why i asked How will air force leapfrog to 6th gen as u said..what is 6th gen..it doesn't exist yet and maybe won't be coming out until next decade..So how do u leapfrog something dat doesn't exist..
6th gen will most likely be stealth /LO UCAV capable of doing a very high degree of autonomous mission profiles.

With CAT interloped with a mothership + swarm drone attack profile we will develop high data networked warfare and deep AI capability. With the AMCA we will work out tech for medium size VLO aircraft / engine / radar / avionics .

We are putting the building blocks for putting a 6th gen plane in place. To fuck it up or not is on us.

All of this btw has been born out of the LCA program in the 80s - imagine what this tech will give birth to 20+ years from now
 

rkhanna

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I was talking about people complaining about not using Indian special forces for killing Hafiz saeed.

I agree with you on espionage acts.
Paramilitary NOC operations are within the realm of Special Operations irrespective of which acronym prosecutes it. Military SOF is the hammer , sometimes a scalp is more appropriate
 

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