Indian Special Forces

abingdonboy

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I don’t take Ukranian sources seriously lol. This looks highly made up.
That’s true but the original question is perfectly valid. With the current setup with no strategic C&C (SOF command) and an over use on tactical/small team missions are Indian units ready to take on a peer fight?

ive mentioned this a number of times but I found it so shocking/eye opening when it was revealed that it has to be be reiterated again. After the 2015 strikes into Myanmar, NC HQ instructed the SF battalions under them to be prepared for a similar operation across multiple fronts. As a result for the first time in decades and likely the first time in most SF personnel’s entire careers 4 and 9 practiced and coordinated at a battalion level rather than how they had been used to (company and below). It was this preparation that meant they were ready for the 2016 Ops. Now has this become institutionalised? Or have the demands from tactical taskings (CT/COIN) meant that they’ve reverted back to their pre-2015 situation and are hence not prepared for the next big tasking? I have a feeling I know which.

Anytime indian SF talk about themselves they are almost always talking about SHBO, small team tactics etc. not strategic mission mandates
 

abingdonboy

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(All italics and bold are links to sources)

Against China, this has always been the case. No one has ever expected such a large deployment against them - even the Chinese were caught unawares by the scale the deployment grew to. Hell, they lacked even basic winter clothing whereas we didn't. Here, in fact, is a Chinese source (South China Morning Post) in which the PLA indirectly admits to their troops not having enough cold weather gear. And in regards to surplus, the Army didn't need to purchase surplus until a few months into the stand-off, ordering them as late as October of 2020 when the stand-off started in March, pointing to an already existing stock.

Saying that the Army should have had enough surplus for 200k+ troops ready is like saying the British should have had thousands of Spitfires in service before the war with Germany. You cite America's wars, but during both Gulf Wars the US Army didn't have enough body armour ready for all its frontline and rear deployed troops. Source 1, Source 2, Even the British were short of body armor, Source 3. And the reason the Americans had so much surplus winter clothing is because they had huge deployments in the Hindu Kush mountains.

Furthermore, the winter clothing bought by the IA in 2020 was mostly to restock exhausted supplies, with the majority of the stocked winter clothes having already been dispensed. Even then, the IA only ordered 11,000 despite having anywhere between 150k-200k troops deployed and possibly 60k+ on the frontlines. In the middle of the hostilities, the IAF and Indian Army set up an amazingly efficient logistics chain (Source 1, Source 2). After the order of 11k sets of winter clothing, there has been no repeat order. The most likely scenario is that the 11k sets bought from US Army stock are part of the contingency as there has been no images of Indian soldiers wearing US stuff on the front lines. Yes there are plenty of photos of US clothing in rear camps or officers wearing them, but if you look at images of the actual front line, there are none.

I understand where you are coming from, but as there are those in this forum who are amazingly blind to the IA's failures, you are blind to the IA's successes, looking at half the information and coming to incorrectly drawn conclusions.
China is always going to be the aggressor. And India is always going to have to be the defender hence the onus has to be on the Indian side to be highly prepared for all contingencies as the Chinese side has the luxury of fighting on their terms

so I don’t buy this argument that because China underestimated the Indian side’s napping is defensible. Given the power dynamics the Indian side should always be paranoid. The IDF is proactive and prepared because they know they are fighting for survival. What excuses complacency in India?
 

abingdonboy

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Point is why to defend the undefendable
I mean the claim of best mountain warfare is simply bogus
The superhuman capabilities doesn't make u best in a domain but an innovation and different thinking does
Just leave above 2 requirements they can't even follow the trend
The winter clothing is issue that's in public imagine hundreds of issues that's not public
The tall claims of ‘best’ just sound like wilful obfuscation, not dissimilar to what the Pakis claim. If you project that you’re already the best then it means there’s no need for introspection, you can’t improve on being the best right?
 

Spadex

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I don’t take Ukranian sources seriously lol. This looks highly made up.
Ukraine special forces have some serious capabilities and equipments, Americans were training them well before the war. The level of equipments they have can outclassed many top western SOFs. Add this capability with NATO intelligence and American traning and you got a formidable force capable of striking deep inside enemy lines
 

Kumaoni

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That’s true but the original question is perfectly valid. With the current setup with no strategic C&C (SOF command) and an over use on tactical/small team missions are Indian units ready to take on a peer fight?

ive mentioned this a number of times but I found it so shocking/eye opening when it was revealed that it has to be be reiterated again. After the 2015 strikes into Myanmar, NC HQ instructed the SF battalions under them to be prepared for a similar operation across multiple fronts. As a result for the first time in decades and likely the first time in most SF personnel’s entire careers 4 and 9 practiced and coordinated at a battalion level rather than how they had been used to (company and below). It was this preparation that meant they were ready for the 2016 Ops. Now has this become institutionalised? Or have the demands from tactical taskings (CT/COIN) meant that they’ve reverted back to their pre-2015 situation and are hence not prepared for the next big tasking? I have a feeling I know which.

Anytime indian SF talk about themselves they are almost always talking about SHBO, small team tactics etc. not strategic mission mandates
The only way to actually find out is if conflict breaks. Rest is all speculation.

It will also depend on what the special operation is. If the army brass and officers are as competent as they were in 1971, then probbaly yes. However I don’t think so.
Ukraine special forces have some serious capabilities and equipments, Americans were training them well before the war. The level of equipments they have can outclassed many top western SOFs. Add this capability with NATO intelligence and American traning and you got a formidable force capable of striking deep inside enemy lines
Nah, they can make as many ghost of Kiev stories. They got a few lucky drone strikes and the pussies in Moscow are too incompetent to retaliate.
 

abingdonboy

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The only way to actually find out is if conflict breaks. Rest is all speculation.

It will also depend on what the special operation is. If the army brass and officers are as competent as they were in 1971, then probbaly yes. However I don’t think so.
The problem is the force has changed so much to the extent they are merely airborne infantry now. Even if you wanted to launch SF missions you’d struggle to do with the current setup which, like you said, would only reveal itself when needed although the fact they haven’t come to this conclusion themselves after the AFSOD experiment and various validation exercises they conduct proves the issue is from the top down. SOF just aren’t prioritised in india nor valued hence the situation. They’d much much rather have a heavy infantry division/holding force over a couple of elite SOF battalions.

this is fine if it’s a doctrinal issue but then I wish they’d drop the SF tag once and for all for the para regiment.
 

Angel of War

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The problem is the force has changed so much to the extent they are merely airborne infantry now. Even if you wanted to launch SF missions you’d struggle to do with the current setup which, like you said, would only reveal itself when needed although the fact they haven’t come to this conclusion themselves after the AFSOD experiment and various validation exercises they conduct proves the issue is from the top down. SOF just aren’t prioritised in india nor valued hence the situation. They’d much much rather have a heavy infantry division/holding force over a couple of elite SOF battalions.

this is fine if it’s a doctrinal issue but then I wish they’d drop the SF tag once and for all for the para regiment.
When war plans are prepared, validated and rehearsed , the army leadership at the corps/theatre level engages in 'systems thinking' where they look at the larger picture of the scenario they're likely to get into and prepare a strategy to achieve operational goals along with a multitude of contingency options.. BUT....SF's only a form a tiny fraction of the whole planning exercise. Infact they're often kept on the sidelines in the whole process.
 

Kumaoni

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The problem is the force has changed so much to the extent they are merely airborne infantry now. Even if you wanted to launch SF missions you’d struggle to do with the current setup which, like you said, would only reveal itself when needed although the fact they haven’t come to this conclusion themselves after the AFSOD experiment and various validation exercises they conduct proves the issue is from the top down. SOF just aren’t prioritised in india nor valued hence the situation. They’d much much rather have a heavy infantry division/holding force over a couple of elite SOF battalions.

this is fine if it’s a doctrinal issue but then I wish they’d drop the SF tag once and for all for the para regiment.
The ironic part is that there was a difference back in the good old days. We see this in the war of 71, when we had a specific SF (9 AND 10) which did SF operations, while the others did actual parachute and paratrooper deployments.

I think only a couple of PARA SF battalions which are actually SF capable need to retain the tag. Rest should be just the parachute or airborne regiment, because it is difficult to say if India has any actual paratroopers.
 

Corvus Splendens

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Ukraine special forces have some serious capabilities and equipment, Americans were training them well before the war. The level of equipment they have can outclassed many top western SOFs. Add this capability with NATO intelligence and American training and you got a formidable force capable of striking deep inside enemy lines
They are the best at making propaganda for the westerners to lap it up that's for sure. Any serious gains or tactical victories on the ground is likely done by foreign sf operating covertly.
 

NoobWannaLearn

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They are the best at making propaganda for the westerners to lap it up that's for sure. Any serious gains or tactical victories on the ground is likely done by foreign sf operating covertly.
Bro what are you talking about Ukraine will win by doing Pokemon dance
 

COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

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China is always going to be the aggressor. And India is always going to have to be the defender hence the onus has to be on the Indian side to be highly prepared for all contingencies as the Chinese side has the luxury of fighting on their terms

so I don’t buy this argument that because China underestimated the Indian side’s napping is defensible. Given the power dynamics the Indian side should always be paranoid. The IDF is proactive and prepared because they know they are fighting for survival. What excuses complacency in India?
Forget that..

There was no winter clothing then how were you planning to take back LOC which everyone seems to claim like its gonna be soo easy... without winter clothing?
 

Dom the Dumb

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China is always going to be the aggressor. And India is always going to have to be the defender hence the onus has to be on the Indian side to be highly prepared for all contingencies as the Chinese side has the luxury of fighting on their terms

so I don’t buy this argument that because China underestimated the Indian side’s napping is defensible. Given the power dynamics the Indian side should always be paranoid. The IDF is proactive and prepared because they know they are fighting for survival. What excuses complacency in India?
I don't think you understood my point. It was never "the Chinese weren't prepared so it's fine that India wasn't". It was, that despite outward appearances and despite mobilising pretty much the entirety of Northern Command + attached Armoured Brigades from other commands (either Western or South Western) and mobilising anywhere from 175-200k men, the Indian Army only had to order 11,000 extra, almost certainly to maintain stocks and not to equip soldiers. In fact the MoD's 2020 year-in-review press release (here) clarifies this. I quote: "Advance Winter Stocking (AWS) and winter preparations for the enhanced strength has been completed and troops are well entrenched to counter any misadventure by Chinese forces." The IA already had enough and more for the troops it had to mobilise and deploy, but bought more just in case. 200,000 soldiers is a huge amount.

Also the fact that the Indian Army mobilised 200k soldiers in less than a month (as mobilisation started in May) and IA engineers built - by October - the infrastructure needed to sustain the 200k for the entire winter, demonstrates an excellent command over logistics in general. This also points to an existing stock of winter equipment - something that was rectified by the Indian Army following the Siachen kurfuffle in which in the 80s, in which it had virtually no stock of winter clothing of the magnitude required.
 

Dom the Dumb

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Forget that..

There was no winter clothing then how were you planning to take back LOC which everyone seems to claim like its gonna be soo easy... without winter clothing?
Please read my responses and check my sources. There is enough and more winter clothing and equipment. It is not possible for the Indian Army to maintain Northern Command without it. They operate in the Himalayas for God's sakes. If there were no winter clothing, as you claim, there would be reports of Indian soldiers succumbing to frostbite and exposure - in the hundreds, if not thousands. A lack of winter clothing would make a prolonged deployment - a deployment which has lasted from 1947 to 2022 - untennable. Please argue back from consequences, not from 1 report of the Indian Army purchasing as little as 11k units of winter clothing from America
 

Dom the Dumb

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That’s true but the original question is perfectly valid. With the current setup with no strategic C&C (SOF command) and an over use on tactical/small team missions are Indian units ready to take on a peer fight?

ive mentioned this a number of times but I found it so shocking/eye opening when it was revealed that it has to be be reiterated again. After the 2015 strikes into Myanmar, NC HQ instructed the SF battalions under them to be prepared for a similar operation across multiple fronts. As a result for the first time in decades and likely the first time in most SF personnel’s entire careers 4 and 9 practiced and coordinated at a battalion level rather than how they had been used to (company and below). It was this preparation that meant they were ready for the 2016 Ops. Now has this become institutionalised? Or have the demands from tactical taskings (CT/COIN) meant that they’ve reverted back to their pre-2015 situation and are hence not prepared for the next big tasking? I have a feeling I know which.

Anytime indian SF talk about themselves they are almost always talking about SHBO, small team tactics etc. not strategic mission mandates
It really is a shame that there's no one apart from 4 and 9 is SOF capable and yet every Para unit is "SF".

Also, logically - I should think - that following the success of 2015/16, it became institutionalised preparation in 4 and 9. I have no sources on this, just conjecture.
 

Angel of War

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The ironic part is that there was a difference back in the good old days. We see this in the war of 71, when we had a specific SF (9 AND 10) which did SF operations, while the others did actual parachute and paratrooper deployments.

I think only a couple of PARA SF battalions which are actually SF capable need to retain the tag. Rest should be just the parachute or airborne regiment, because it is difficult to say if India has any actual paratroopers.
I think you meant 'SF' instead of Paratroopers
 

Angel of War

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It really is a shame that there's no one apart from 4 and 9 is SOF capable and yet every Para unit is "SF".

Also, logically - I should think - that following the success of 2015/16, it became institutionalised preparation in 4 and 9. I have no sources on this, just conjecture.
10 is as SF capable as 4 and 9.
 

Automatic Kalashnikov

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It really is a shame that there's no one apart from 4 and 9 is SOF capable and yet every Para unit is "SF".

Also, logically - I should think - that following the success of 2015/16, it became institutionalised preparation in 4 and 9. I have no sources on this, just conjecture.
how did you arrive to the conclusion on just 4 & 9? just cause they are the news more often due to AOR?
 

Angel of War

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Forget that..

There was no winter clothing then how were you planning to take back LOC which everyone seems to claim like its gonna be soo easy... without winter clothing?
The scenario of retaking PoK and defending ladakh are very very different. In Ladakh we were caught unaware and didn't expect the scale of deployment that would be needed to counter the chinese build up. On the other hand whenever we decide to go on a campaign in PoK we will always enter the war with total preparation and enough force levels to achieve a breakthrough. Why do you think we did well in 71 and not so well in 65 ? It's because in 65 we were the defending side and were unprepared when the war started. on the other hand we had started preparation for the 71 war well before the commencement of hostilities, the army had bought time from the PM and started to prepare itself for the Bangladesh campaign in early 1971 itself. The situation in ladakh is similar to 65, so it doesn't make sense to compare a future conquest of POK with the situation in ladakh.
 

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