Indian Special Forces

[Waanar]

None of this is false but it doesn’t change the importance of basic hand to hand combat, which pretty much every SF or infantry globally teaches.

And in some places like Siachen it was so cold that guns couldn’t be used at all

I'm not saying it's wholly irrelevant but in the SOF spectrum of existence, it's so low down on the totem pole, it might as well be ignored.

To become dominant in a street fight requires immense time spent practicing and even then anything could very easily go wrong. That time spent could be used to train on more relevant skills without risking injuries (very very common even among the most mildest of practitioners).
Anyone who's been in a street fight knows how useless mainstream martial arts really are. Aggression and initiative triumphs, all those cool flicks, kicks and dicks work only in a controlled setting.

 

[Kumaoni]

I'm not saying it's wholly irrelevant but in the SOF spectrum of existence, it's so low down on the totem pole, it might as well be ignored.

As in? What do you mean? Any actual proof of this?

 

[shouryav105]

I have heard various reasoning for this and one which makes a lot of sense is you cannot tell how bright an area is to anyone with the naked eye and you may end up walking into a bright enough area where the enemy (who doesn't have NVGs) can see you but you don't think they can.

It's a tradeoff of depth perception for better SA albeit at a lack of FOV. People who train extensively on monoculars usually swear up and down that it's better than binods.

Also, depending on how bright it's set at (someone tell me if all NODs have adjustable brightness or some lack that feature), it can take a few hot minutes to readjust to the dark, especially if the readjustment is getting disrupted intermittently by muzzle flashes.

PVS-31 can also be used as monocular if operator wants to but with lanyard in place and good mounting system, operator can look under nods to perceive the nature of environment without removing nods , even if can't the thing is sop remains same and with enough training operator can beat the time lag and smaller fov with fast intervention and head movements even if enemy can see without nods.

 

[armyofhind]

I'm not saying it's wholly irrelevant but in the SOF spectrum of existence, it's so low down on the totem pole, it might as well be ignored.

Can't be ignored.
Unintentional CQC is a grim reality whenever you're doing house or room intervention.

SOF, supposedly the designated force for such missions, has to train in it. Not sport martial arts per se.. but combatives. Disengaging/Controlling someone who's jumped you, creating space, and getting to your secondary/tertiary to finish off the job.

Every elite unit worth their salt trains combatives on a regular basis - Tier 1 included.

 

[Waanar]

As in? What do you mean? Any actual proof of this?

I have an experiment.
You and me, we start at a twenty metre distance. At the go mark after the countdown, we will run towards each other and start smacking each other.
Except, I have a buddy who has a really functioning gun. At the go mark, he'll take aim at you and shoot.


Now, I know this is super hard, but we must intellectually answer this question taking into consideration such complex variables-
Who win?

 

[Waanar]

Can't be ignored.
Unintentional CQC is a grim reality whenever you're doing house or room intervention.

SOF, supposedly the designated force for such missions, has to train in it. Not sport martial arts per se.. but combatives. Disengaging/Controlling someone who's jumped you, creating space, and getting to your secondary/tertiary to finish off the job.

Every elite unit worth their salt trains combatives on a regular basis - Tier 1 included.

It's like SERE.
You can learn it but you if you're actually doing it, things have gone horribly wrong.

 

[Kumaoni]

I have an experiment.
You and me, we start at a twenty metre distance. At the go mark after the countdown, we will run towards each other and start smacking each other.
Except, I have a buddy who has a really functioning gun. At the go mark, he'll take aim at you and shoot.


Now, I know this is super hard, but we must intellectually answer this question taking into consideration such complex variables-
Who win?

Well I hope Indian SOF won’t be charging gun positions to go Rambo on them.

 

[armyofhind]

It's like SERE.
You can learn it but you if you're actually doing it, things have gone horribly wrong.

Horribly wrong or not, that's debatable.

There will always be a sizeable element of uncertainty in things.

You can't plan for every eventuality, but you can plan for the response to it if a situation goes south.

When the situation goes south, you can't say I haven't trained for this, so I'll just keel over and die.

That, in my opinion, is where Combatives, or even SERE for that matter, fit in.

 

[Waanar]

Well I hope Indian SOF won’t be charging gun positions to go Rambo on them.

I don't subscribe to the whole hand to hand relevance thingy.
If you're trying to capture someone unarmed alive (snatching HVTs or something along those lines) it makes sense to know locks and holds but if we're speaking of firefights and somehow two soldiers chance upon each other, both are isolated and both are out of ammo (fat chance of that), the brute may chase but the smarter one should be running to his squad screaming "BHAI ISKO THOK! ISKO THOK!".

Why risk your teeth and beautiful facial features just to prove a point?

 

[shouryav105]

It's extremely rare for an operator to get in hand to hand combat, if you get in hand to hand and your opponent has a knife then you are certainly going to get cut and chances of death are extreme, hand to hand combat is a very wide field and you can only teach basics of intervention, so if you are getting in h to h and can't transition to your secondary firearms then consider yourself dead, jai ho gang thinking sof can be turned into ninjas is false, chances of your survival with current standard h to h training is less than 60%

 

[Kumaoni]

I don't subscribe to the whole hand to hand relevance thingy.
If you're trying to capture someone unarmed alive (snatching HVTs or something along those lines) it makes sense to know locks and holds but if we're speaking of firefights and somehow two soldiers chance upon each other, both are isolated and both are out of ammo (fat chance of that), the brute may chase but the smarter one should be running to his squad screaming "BHAI ISKO THOK! ISKO THOK!".

Why risk your teeth and beautiful facial features just to prove a point?

The hand to hand combat in actual war is probably totally obsolete now. In the wars of 48, 65, 71, 62, and Kargil, there was much hand to hand fighting, but this was mainly due to ego and charging enemy posts. Also, the technology was waaaay less advanced than it is now. If soldiers get into hand to hand fighting it will likely be for ego purposes

 

[shouryav105]

It's extremely rare for an operator to get in hand to hand combat, if you get in hand to hand and your opponent has a knife then you are certainly going to get cut and chances of death are extreme, hand to hand combat is a very wide field and you can only teach basics of intervention, so if you are getting in h to h and can't transition to your secondary firearms then consider yourself dead, jai ho gang thinking sof can be turned into ninjas is false, chances of your survival with current standard h to h training is less than 60%

H to H training is more about how to survive then to kill, learn the basics to not get yourself killed and move on, chances of h to h in cqb are also extremely low, if you know anything about modern sof cqb sop then you will know .

 

[Kumaoni]

H to H training is more about how to survive then to kill, learn the basics to not get yourself killed and move on, chances of h to h in cqb are also extremely low, if you know anything about modern sof cqb sop then you will know .

Pretty much. This is quite accurate.

 

[Tactical Doge]

the brute may chase but the smarter one should be running to his squad screaming "BHAI ISKO THOK! ISKO THOK!".

Who else but waanar

Masha waanar

 

[shouryav105]

I don't subscribe to the whole hand to hand relevance thingy.
If you're trying to capture someone unarmed alive (snatching HVTs or something along those lines) it makes sense to know locks and holds but if we're speaking of firefights and somehow two soldiers chance upon each other, both are isolated and both are out of ammo (fat chance of that), the brute may chase but the smarter one should be running to his squad screaming "BHAI ISKO THOK! ISKO THOK!".

Why risk your teeth and beautiful facial features just to prove a point?

So true, h to h in any environment except cqb(very rare) situation is not realistic in modern warfare, and you are never clearing rooms alone so in case if terrorist pins you and has a knife , all you need to know are basic to stop him from stabing you until your buddy shoot him or you transition to secondary weapon and kill, I would say less than 0.1% chance you will get in that situation in your entire sf career.

 

[jai jaganath]

Hand to hand combat is useful in mountain warfare or extreme conditions where guns may jam up. Happened in Siachen and Kargil. Though we were less technologically advanced back then.

Bro I laughed a lot pls don't take it personally u need to increase ur perspective regarding SF
Hand to hand combat literally brings down the entire purpose of spec ops
Yeah sometimes situation arrives but rarest but never like going for hand to hand
I can't understand the logic behind guns jamming literally bollywood scene in my mind

 

[Kumaoni]

Bro I laughed a lot pls don't take it personally u need to increase ur perspective regarding SF
Hand to hand combat literally brings down the entire purpose of spec ops
Yeah sometimes situation arrives but rarest but never like going for hand to hand
I can't understand the logic behind guns jamming literally bollywood scene in my mind

Dude the bollywood scene is total bullshit, I agree, but h to h is literally trained everywhere. US marines themselves do boxing, wrestling, etc

 

[jai jaganath]

Dude the bollywood scene is total bullshit, I agree, but h to h is literally trained everywhere. US marines themselves do boxing, wrestling, etc

Yes bro everyone is trained for worse case but it's never expected and as I said rarely
Moreover HTH is done to increase fighting spirit aggressiveness and other human factors
But rarely in real life

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Dude the bollywood scene is total bullshit, I agree, but h to h is literally trained everywhere. US marines themselves do boxing, wrestling, etc

That is to develop character,induce fighting instincts and make you a hunter.

If you are doing Martial arts to survive your planning has failed.

Its like 50/50 situation..why would you get into that where you have half a chance to survive.

 

[ManhattanProject]

View attachment 165901
Conversation I had last year on Twitter regarding the use of Conventional vs Laser Cut MOLLE with whoever handles their SM account.

Ig if someone wants Laser Cut MOLLE they’ll probably have to pay a premium for it if they don’t offer it as standard.

Regarding the QR mechanism do you have a video of the release mechanism of the one you showed of MKU vs the one on the SF RIG? I’ve never seen either work in real life so can’t tell how one’s better than other. Hey, but if the AT one works well then ig it’s worth it as they have commonality with their battle belts.

It works like this.