Indian Special Forces (archived)

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Yeah that's my point, and when is this picture from?

So what has changed in the last 9 years? The last 40?



It's not about knowledge buddy, it's about reality and seeing things for how they truly are.


I know it's a bitter pill to swallow but if we all take off our rose tinted glasses and take a dispassionate look at things we will all come to the same conclusions. I reject the idea that much has changed in the last 7 years, in fact the rot only seems to have gotten deeper.


+ it's not about money, we have been over this a number of times in this thread, equipping SFs is the CHEAP option (compared to buying tanks, fighter jets, submarines etc), it's a question of misplaced priorities and or simple ignorance and indifference by the decision makers.

There are ample "black budgets" in India, projects that are seen as strategic in nature like ICBMs, SSBNs, hard kill-ASAT etc are run out of the PMO, special forces are meant to be STRATEGIC assets but they have no direct connections to the top most leadership, they are treated as "super soldiers" by their respective branches hence why you see them being asked to undertake HADR missions or simple diving jobs.

The state of the Indian SFs is because they are not seen as strategic assets and so are not treated as such. There's nothing that will change that, this is why AFSOD is crucial as it will lead to a dedicated SOCOM hopefully in the next 10-15 years.


Until then expect almost nothing to change, admirals, Air Marshals and infantry generals are not going to wake up today or tomorrow and understand these things, they will continue to treat their SFs as almost irrelevant manpower


Incremental upgrades won't cut it- One team/company might get Hugh cuts meanwhile their sister company is running around with model 1974s.

There needs to be a top down decision to entirely overhaul Indian SFs from head to toe with firm targets, just as the NSG saw 2010-2015.




Very accurate, I think this is the fundamental issue- those that haven't been paying attention for too long start out jingoistic and optimistic, the longer you follow these things or the closer you look the more cynical you become when reality hits you in the face.


I remember @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR and I used to have discussions about Indian SF modernisation about 7-8 years back, we were both sure within a decade everything would be different, remember how MARCOs were meant to have a implemented a future combat system by *2014*? In the last 10 years almost nothing has changed as far as Indian mil SFs are concerned meanwhile the stuff once described as "Gucci" or "tier 1" stuff has trickles down to even "third world nations"



I mean Western Police SWAT units are now using GPNVG-18s (first made public in the aftermath of the Abbotobad raid in May 2011), meanwhile Indian SFs haven't moved on from the monocular NVGs that Western SFs were using in the 1980s.


This is a picture of the local SEK unit (German local police SWAT like unit), this isn't even GSG-9 or anything!
View attachment 69204

Bro you had so much faith in the future combat system back in the day i remember.

Its been a disappointment.

Marcos has heavily and NsG has partially disappointed me.I knew the fate of Para wont change in terms of modernisation.

 

[Killbot]

One thing did happen. We enmassed doubled our SF strenght almost over night oh and tavors

These same guys still use basic infantry kit. Including AKs. And I'm not talking about 11th and 12th.

 

[abingdonboy]

Changes have been made , I can only say about equipment of nsg but still they are progressing at a slow pace to modernise them .
All special forces .

I made it quite clear I was mainly talking about the Mil SFs of the 3 armed forces branches

And no, there's almost no visible change on the ground today since 2010


From 2011, all of the kit in this is still standard issue for PARA SF today

2009 or 2015 or 2020? impossible to tell isn't it?


(pic is from 2014)

And this is 2020:

Night and day difference?




MARCOs 2010:

Remember this article, MARCO's 'new look' in 2012:

India's sea lions: Navy's marine commandos get a makeover and reveal a leaner and meaner new look

The Indian Navy's elite marine commandos, Marcos, have undergone a makeover. Members of a Marco stick - eightmember quick reaction teams of the force - were seen in the new gear while on ship-protection duty aboard the guided stealth frigate INS Sahyadri during its commissioning last week in Mumbai.

www.dailymail.co.uk

2018:

2019:

Indian Navy & Coast Guard Conduct Largest-ever Anti-hijacking Exercise 'Apharan'

Exercise Apharan was aimed at streamlining the response mechanism and preparedness to thwart any attempt by to hijack a merchant vessel or attempt forced entry of a rogue or commandeered merchant vessel into Kochi harbour.

indusdictum.com

Call me stupid but I'm struggling to see any major changes, a new helmet here and there is pretty irrelevant

Meanwhile, Philippines NAVSOG:

 

[abingdonboy]

Marcos has heavily and NsG has partially disappointed me.I knew the fate of Para wont change in terms of modernisation.

Agreed although NSG is getting there, they are the only ones I have some hope in fo the next 5 years. The others will continue to tread water and rot.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

I made it quite clear I was mainly talking about the Mil SFs of the 3 armed forces branches

And no, there's almost no visible change on the ground today since 2010


From 2011, all of the kit in this is still standard issue for PARA SF today

2009 or 2015 or 2020? impossible to tell isn't it?


(pic is from 2014)

And this is 2020:

Night and day difference?




MARCOs 2010:

Remember this article, MARCO's 'new look' in 2012:

India's sea lions: Navy's marine commandos get a makeover and reveal a leaner and meaner new look

The Indian Navy's elite marine commandos, Marcos, have undergone a makeover. Members of a Marco stick - eightmember quick reaction teams of the force - were seen in the new gear while on ship-protection duty aboard the guided stealth frigate INS Sahyadri during its commissioning last week in Mumbai.

www.dailymail.co.uk

2018:

2019:

Indian Navy & Coast Guard Conduct Largest-ever Anti-hijacking Exercise 'Apharan'

Exercise Apharan was aimed at streamlining the response mechanism and preparedness to thwart any attempt by to hijack a merchant vessel or attempt forced entry of a rogue or commandeered merchant vessel into Kochi harbour.

indusdictum.com

Call me stupid but I'm struggling to see any major changes, a new helmet here and there is pretty irrelevant

Meanwhile, Philippines NAVSOG:

Take the Tavor out and put an Ak instead

100 bucks for those who can guess the unit lol

 

[Killbot]

Take the Tavor out and put an Ak instead

100 bucks for those who can guess the unit lol

Dude, check out 11th and 12th battalions. They don't even have Tavors.

 

[Deathstar]

Man , i feel its lack of will or something or complete disdain for our SOFs by higher ups especially non Sf generals? Are they jealous or something or is it deliberate? How is it difficult to emulate Western standards when u have complete access to their equipments. Chinese despite not having any access have done miles better job implementing western standards.
We can build an aircraft carrier , design fighter aircrafts , send satellites but cannot smoothly transition to a modern equipped SoF ,forget infantry. Generals are still in WW era where infantry was treated like canon fodder....

 

[FalconSlayers]

Take the Tavor out and put an Ak instead

100 bucks for those who can guess the unit lol

Rashtriya Rifles. Even RR guys are better equipped with FAB MOD AKs, Elbow and Knee protection, and Helmets.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Rashtriya Rifles. Even RR guys are better equipped with FAB MOD AKs, Elbow and Knee protection, and Helmets.

@rkhanna

Armoured regtt background guys are performing great in RR these days.

Back in the day in 90s they used to stand spray and pray and get hit.

Nowadays i am hearing they are as good as Infantrymen.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Left side seems to be the standard Indian Special Forces are moving towards.

MARCOS, Anti Hijacking Exercise, INS Dega, 12 February, 2020

 

[FalconSlayers]

Left side seems to be the standard Indian Special Forces are moving towards.

MARCOS, Anti Hijacking Exercise, INS Dega, 12 February, 2020

Still no Comms, and no standard AR-15 Type Small Arms. Tavor is a great rifle but there’s a reason why Special Forces around the globe have a variety in their small arms cache.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Still no Comms, and no standard AR-15 Type Small Arms. Tavor is a great rifle but there’s a reason why Special Forces around the globe have a variety in their small arms cache.

Comms is the only issue here but Tavor is fine as an SF rifle.

BTW Indian Special Forces are getting SCAR-L.

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

The AK seems to be a training/dummy one.

What are the taped things on waist and shoulders?

Yup dummy AK

 

[Killbot]

Left side seems to be the standard Indian Special Forces are moving towards.

MARCOS, Anti Hijacking Exercise, INS Dega, 12 February, 2020

And that standard is 10 years behind Western SOFs.

 

[rkhanna]

@rkhanna

Armoured regtt background guys are performing great in RR these days.

Back in the day in 90s they used to stand spray and pray and get hit.

Nowadays i am hearing they are as good as Infantrymen.

Because of RR even the Signals chaps can shoot straight now

 

[rkhanna]

Comms is the only issue here but Tavor is fine as an SF rifle.

BTW Indian Special Forces are getting SCAR-L.

Just as an observation : the French , Brits, Israelis, Australians - all countries with bullpubs as primary rifle for infantry - all use AR platform smalls arms for SOF

 

[abingdonboy]

And that standard is 10 years behind Western SOFs.

20 easily.


In early 00s (GWOT) US SFs/SOFs had all the stuff we are considering cutting edge by Indian standards (integrated comns, 2-tube NVGs, lightweight helmets (with attachments) plus they had superior night-fighting capabilities to anything I've ever seen from any Indian SF- IR strobes, IR illuminators, IR chemlights etc etc


Early/mid 00s:

\\

This is US and UK SF in the late 00s:

Take the Tavor out and put an Ak instead

100 bucks for those who can guess the unit lol

And this is the peculiar thing isn't it? Whilst RR and Ghatak units have made huge strides in the last 10 years, Indian SFs have somehow managed to stay still. Today you could have a RR trooper looking identical to PARA SF bar the Tavor

Something has gone deeply deeply wrong and I don't see how having faith in these clowns that created this situation to fix it makes sense

Dude, check out 11th and 12th battalions. They don't even have Tavors.

Even 7 PARA (Airborne) have Tavors now, I'm sure all the SF btns do now.

Man , i feel its lack of will or something or complete disdain for our SOFs by higher ups especially non Sf generals? Are they jealous or something or is it deliberate? How is it difficult to emulate Western standards when u have complete access to their equipments. Chinese despite not having any access have done miles better job implementing western standards.

Left side seems to be the standard Indian Special Forces are moving towards.

MARCOS, Anti Hijacking Exercise, INS Dega, 12 February, 2020

So what's impressive about this? A high cut with no integrated comns? A lightweight plate carrier without anything that would be useful in a fight, where's the med-kit? Where is the mission planning tablet? Where is the breaching equipment?etc etc

What is meant to make Special Forces special is their SPECIALIST training AND equipment


This is what Western SFs (and even infantry guys now) load outs look like:

Nav equipment, comns, med kit etc etc


In USSOCOM (and I'm sure this is the case now amongst most Western SFs), they have entire spaces dedicated for each individual operator and their personal gea, each guy literally has crates of specialist equipment, Indian SFs are lucky if they have more than 1 spare mag on Ops

Stop being pleased by mediocre updates

 

[ManhattanProject]

That comment was out of line. They were using that kit because it was a diving operation. What better than an AK for swimming through salt water.

contrary to popular belief AK rust far easier than AR type rifles.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

20 easily.


In early 00s (GWOT) US SFs/SOFs had all the stuff we are considering cutting edge by Indian standards (integrated comns, 2-tube NVGs, lightweight helmets (with attachments) plus they had superior night-fighting capabilities to anything I've ever seen from any Indian SF- IR strobes, IR illuminators, IR chemlights etc etc


Early/mid 00s:

\\

This is US and UK SF in the late 00s:

And this is the peculiar thing isn't it? Whilst RR and Ghatak units have made huge strides in the last 10 years, Indian SFs have somehow managed to stay still. Today you could have a RR trooper looking identical to PARA SF bar the Tavor

Something has gone deeply deeply wrong and I don't see how having faith in these clowns that created this situation to fix it makes sense




Even 7 PARA (Airborne) have Tavors now, I'm sure all the SF btns do now.



So what's impressive about this? A high cut with no integrated comns? A lightweight plate carrier without anything that would be useful in a fight, where's the med-kit? Where is the mission planning tablet? Where is the breaching equipment?etc etc

What is meant to make Special Forces special is their SPECIALIST training AND equipment


This is what Western SFs (and even infantry guys now) load outs look like:

Nav equipment, comns, med kit etc etc


In USSOCOM (and I'm sure this is the case now amongst most Western SFs), they have entire spaces dedicated for each individual operator and their personal gea, each guy literally has crates of specialist equipment, Indian SFs are lucky if they have more than 1 spare mag on Ops

Stop being pleased by mediocre updates

Bro the RR has really closed the gap between them and Para SF.

RR were the first to get ballistic shields.
RR have a better helmet and bpj than before.
RR troopers are better trained than before and Para SF training has been at a standstill.
RR has got optics and better communication over the years.

This is what happens when you are mindlessly hungry for small kills in Kashmir and forget to keep yourself updated.

The technology we are talking about isnt Plug and Play like everyone thinks.

 

[FalconSlayers]

Just as an observation : the French , Brits, Israelis, Australians - all countries with bullpubs as primary rifle for infantry - all use AR platform smalls arms for SOF

Even China.