Indian Special Forces

Killbot

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The most stark thing. They didn't suffer any casualties. And it was a long sustained firefight
Casualties are mostly due to accidents or intel failures in their missions.
An exception was the lone survivor mission in 2005. That was a a tactical failure + intelligence failure.

Let's discuss this topic further in world SF thread.

@ALBY please move posts related to world SF to appropriate thread. Thanks.
 

Deathstar

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Casualties are mostly due to accidents or intel failures in their missions.
An exception was the lone survivor mission in 2005. That was a a tactical failure + intelligence failure.

Let's discuss this topic further in world SF thread.

@ALBY please move posts related to world SF to appropriate thread. Thanks.
Still my favourite SF op is Op Entebbe...
 

Killbot

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That's incorrect. MARCOS has a lot of operations under their belt, including those carried out in Sri Lanka, Arakan Mountains and Nepal, but most of these ops are classified. I know of a few through some personal interactions, but cannot talk much on the details.

Same goes for the SG as well, they are the closest equivalent we have to a Tier-1 unit, (Not comparable in terms of Tech to US Tier-1 of course). Lot of Ops, including some in Afghanistan before the advent of the Afghan Civil War.

But these things are kept fairly low key, as they should be. But just because We dont make movies about them, does not mean it hasnt been done.

A good resource to get some idea about SG Ops is a book - "RAW - A History of India's Covert Operations" by Yatish Yadav. You'll find some details there, nothing outright though.
You may be right about MARCOS. Though I highly doubt the Myanmar part. Sri Lanka, yeah. But I'm talking post 2000. I don't think they are as capable as even Para SF in land ops... That isn't their mandate..

We don't even know the role of SG. And they aren't part of the military. They are an intelligence guys with tactical capability. They don't do raids or that kind of stuff. So I wouldn't consider them a military SOF.

Thanks I'll check the book out.
 

armyofhind

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You may be right about MARCOS. Though I highly doubt the Myanmar part. Sri Lanka, yeah. But I'm talking post 2000. I don't think they are as capable as even Para SF in land ops... That isn't their mandate..

We don't even know the role of SG. And they aren't part of the military. They are an intelligence guys with tactical capability. They don't do raids or that kind of stuff. So I wouldn't consider them a military SOF.

Thanks I'll check the book out.
That's the point. Like I said, this is coming from personal interaction with Ex-MARCOS. Nothing is in public domain as that's the point entirely. I missed the deployment of MARCOS in Somalia in '93. If I remember correctly, one the guys was awarded the Shaurya Chakra as well for Ops conducted there as part of the US Coalition.
Ops in Nepal have been post 2000. Also, continuous anti piracy ops in the Gulf of Aden and securing the harbours in Yemen during the evacuation in Op Raahat.

Role of the SG is to do what RAW needs done on foreign soil in a deniable environment, that includes arresting/taking out HVTs, and yeah, under purely technical terms, SG isnt a part of the military. But its mostly composed of Para SF guys, with some coming in from SFF as well.
SG was one of the first boots on the ground in Afghanistan to liase with Ahmad Shah Massoud, (Before even the Green Berets landed there) when the entire situation blew up after his assassination by Al-Qaeda.
You will not find the details of these Ops published anywhere outside of classified documents though, only mentions in the books on RAW by some really brilliant investigative journalists.
 

COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

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Not necessarily the Haqanni network is quiet well funded and have the organization structures in place to make this happen as well. My bet would be on them. They are some outstanding light infantry fighters
That was a sarcastic comment.

What happens is SSG operators take voluntary retirement and are hired by ISI to do these dirty jobs.(training sometimes executing as well)

As per the views of Gen Katoch i think only SSG is doing a SFs true job in this regard in team with the ISI and Pak deep state.
 

COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

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That's incorrect. MARCOS has a lot of operations under their belt, including those carried out in Sri Lanka, Arakan Mountains and Nepal, but most of these ops are classified. I know of a few through some personal interactions, but cannot talk much on the details.

Same goes for the SG as well, they are the closest equivalent we have to a Tier-1 unit, (Not comparable in terms of Tech to US Tier-1 of course). Lot of Ops, including some in Afghanistan before the advent of the Afghan Civil War.

But these things are kept fairly low key, as they should be. But just because We dont make movies about them, does not mean it hasnt been done.

A good resource to get some idea about SG Ops is a book - "RAW - A History of India's Covert Operations" by Yatish Yadav. You'll find some details there, nothing outright though.
Big respect to your source for his service.

But i doubt the Myanamar ones.And there are many reasons.

That area of ops is exclusively for 21 Para..not even 10 gets deployed there.

Then to be operating there you need to pass in CIJWS..as per my info no Marcos teams have come to train there but individuals have come.

Then who were they under?

Such things people boast about sometimes and people with not much info believe also because they dont know the details.

Someone was claiming that SF was deployed in Africa and everybody starts jumping that we are overthrowing governments.

Its not like that..Para and Garuds have been deployed under UN.UN doesnt throw governments.

My brother in law was once a commander of Congo ops so i have a fair idea about things.

Then the basic things for such deployments is reinforcements and logistics.

You cannot just walk from INS Abhimanyu and get deployed.Its not how it works.

I am saying again that area is for 21 and deployments are careful and calculative coz those bad guys are better trained in jungles than Pakis.

And sorry sir..No marcos team comes even close to 21 in jungle warfare.

Dont take it personally and think about it.
 

Killbot

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That's the point. Like I said, this is coming from personal interaction with Ex-MARCOS. Nothing is in public domain as that's the point entirely. I missed the deployment of MARCOS in Somalia in '93. If I remember correctly, one the guys was awarded the Shaurya Chakra as well for Ops conducted there as part of the US Coalition.
Ops in Nepal have been post 2000. Also, continuous anti piracy ops in the Gulf of Aden and securing the harbours in Yemen during the evacuation in Op Raahat.

Role of the SG is to do what RAW needs done on foreign soil in a deniable environment, that includes arresting/taking out HVTs, and yeah, under purely technical terms, SG isnt a part of the military. But its mostly composed of Para SF guys, with some coming in from SFF as well.
SG was one of the first boots on the ground in Afghanistan to liase with Ahmad Shah Massoud, (Before even the Green Berets landed there) when the entire situation blew up after his assassination by Al-Qaeda.
You will not find the details of these Ops published anywhere outside of classified documents though, only mentions in the books on RAW by some really brilliant investigative journalists.
Anti piracy ops are one thing, even Navy or CG VBSS commandos can do them. MARCOS are not a Covert ops unit. There isn't much about them in the public domain because they don't do much. No disrespect intended to your source, though.

There was no reason for SG to have gotten involved in Afghanistan. Why did they do that? If they actually did, how do you know about it? Aren't they like ultra uber classified and none of us mortals know about them and what they do?

But they do Covert ops, and some of them don't even require a genius to figure out that they had a hand in them.

For example, Col Zahir Habib of ISI went 'missing' in Nepal in 2017. And the Indian spy who defected to America (forgot his name) died in a 'car accident'.

Also, who named them Special Group? Is it even really called that?
@rkhanna @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR @abingdonboy
 

armyofhind

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Anti piracy ops are one thing, even Navy or CG VBSS commandos can do them.
They cannot actually. VBSS are for boarding and seizing suspected vessels. And they are not commandos in the first place.

When a vessel is taken over in international waters by pirates, and the crew has been taken hostage or is under the threat of being taken hostage, then its only a Naval Special Forces unit of whichever country's ship is nearest and is responding to the distress call that has the authority to intervene militarily. This is under the Anti Piracy laws as laid down by the IMO and ratified by signatory countries.

And MARCOS have freed taken over freighters and bulk carriers in the past. There used to be a regular presence of the Indian Navy and MARCOS in the IRTC west of 78E longitude from 2013 to 2017, back when I was sailing myself. I dont know what is the deployment presence now, been out of touch.

MARCOS are not a Covert ops unit.
No, they are not. They are a military SF unit and like most SF missions, barring those which catch the public light or are chosen to be released in public knowledge for a Propaganda or Strategic effect, the major bulk of their missions remains classified.

There isn't much about them in the public domain because they don't do much. No disrespect intended to your source, though.
You can choose to believe whatever you wish really, proving a point here is of no consequence to me.
This is precisely the reason why I remain a silent observer on this thread for most of the time, because people without the requisite facts (reasons for which can be many) start unfairly questioning those who are fortunate enough to have some. And obviously, since its not in public domain and is only given verbally in good faith, there is no article/source/link to share for it.
I would also like to add here that people are not wrong to question, since there is an obvious curiosity to know more, but then please understand that everything cannot be talked about to everyone.

There was no reason for SG to have gotten involved in Afghanistan.
Well, a rapidly destabilising Afghanistan would have a direct backlash on India in Kashmir. Nobody wants the Taliban to come to Kashmir after they are done in Afghanistan. That is a solid reason right there. Apart from that, a lot of the Ops in the realm of espionage are conducted on the promise of mutual benefits and maintaining of relationships between the Covert Ops Organizations of different countries.

As for the present situation, there are a lot of reasons for RAW to be maintaining a solid presence in Southern Pakistan and Afghanistan as well, and there are some enabling factors in the form of a freer hand under the present Government dispensation as well.
If you think that the equipment and training level of the BLA, not to mention the efficacy of their attacks on the Pakis, has gone up steadily since 2014 all by their own doing, think again.

If they actually did, how do you know about it? Aren't they like ultra uber classified and none of us mortals know about them and what they do?
Suffice it to say that I know some people personally who are or have been in the know of these things. I dont like to talk much in detail beyond that.

Although, I did mention a book. You can check it out. There are a few others from Lancer Publishers as well. I'll send the names in some time.
 
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Killbot

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cannot actually. VBSS are for boarding and seizing suspected vessels. And they are not commandos in the first place.

When a vessel is taken over in international waters by pirates, and the crew has been taken hostage or is under the threat of being taken hostage, then its only a Naval Special Forces unit of whichever country's ship is nearest and is responding to the distress call that has the authority to intervene militarily. This is under the Anti Piracy laws as laid down by the IMO and ratified by signatory countries.

And MARCOS have freed taken over freighters and bulk carriers in the past. There used to be a regular presence of the Indian Navy and MARCOS in the IRTC west of 78E longitude from 2013 to 2017, back when I was sailing myself. I dont know what is the deployment presence now, been out of touch.
Oh, I see. Didn't know that, thanks. So you were sailing... Merchant Navy?
They are a military SF unit and like most SF missions, barring those which catch the public light or are chosen to be released in public knowledge for a Propaganda or Strategic effect, the major bulk of their missions remains classified.
Of course. Even their gear must be highly classified.

Well, a rapidly destabilising Afghanistan would have a direct backlash on India in Kashmir. Nobody wants the Taliban to come to Kashmir after they are done in Afghanistan. That is a solid reason right there. Apart from that, a lot of the Ops in the realm of espionage are conducted on the promise of mutual benefits and maintaining of relationships between the Covert Ops Organizations of different countries.

As for the present situation, there are a lot of reasons for RAW to be maintaining a solid presence in Southern Pakistan and Afghanistan as well, and there are some enabling factors in the form of a freer hand under the present Government dispensation as well.
If you think that the equipment and training level of the BLA, not to mention the efficacy of their attacks on the Pakis, has gone up steadily since 2014 all by their own doing, think again.
Taliban had been anti India only when they were America's puppets in 1990s. After US invaded, they were pro India. To the point that they didn't even comment on abrogation of 370. Declared openly that there was no Ghazwa e Hind, and they wanted good relations with India.

RAW maintaining strong presence in Afghanistan is to deal with Pakistan. Has nothing to do with Taliban. Neither does funding of BLA and BLF. Balogh insurgency went up because Pakistani sponsored terrorism in India saw an increase from 2016 onwards. And destabilising Pakistan is in our interest.

Suffice it to say that I know some people personally who are or have been in the know of these things. I dont like to talk much in detail beyond that.

Although, I did mention a book. You can check it out. There are a few others from Lancer Publishers as well. I'll send the names in some time.
Right. So you don't have anything solid either. And do these books actually tell you about operations? That would be in violation of Official Secrets act, so probably not.
 

HawkisRight

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They cannot actually. VBSS are for boarding and seizing suspected vessels. And they are not commandos in the first place.

When a vessel is taken over in international waters by pirates, and the crew has been taken hostage or is under the threat of being taken hostage, then its only a Naval Special Forces unit of whichever country's ship is nearest and is responding to the distress call that has the authority to intervene militarily. This is under the Anti Piracy laws as laid down by the IMO and ratified by signatory countries.

And MARCOS have freed taken over freighters and bulk carriers in the past. There used to be a regular presence of the Indian Navy and MARCOS in the IRTC west of 78E longitude from 2013 to 2017, back when I was sailing myself. I dont know what is the deployment presence now, been out of touch.


No, they are not. They are a military SF unit and like most SF missions, barring those which catch the public light or are chosen to be released in public knowledge for a Propaganda or Strategic effect, the major bulk of their missions remains classified.


You can choose to believe whatever you wish really, proving a point here is of no consequence to me.
This is precisely the reason why I remain a silent observer on this thread for most of the time, because people without the requisite facts (reasons for which can be many) start unfairly questioning those who are fortunate enough to have some. And obviously, since its not in public domain and is only given verbally in good faith, there is no article/source/link to share for it.
I would also like to add here that people are not wrong to question, since there is an obvious curiosity to know more, but then please understand that everything cannot be talked about to everyone.


Well, a rapidly destabilising Afghanistan would have a direct backlash on India in Kashmir. Nobody wants the Taliban to come to Kashmir after they are done in Afghanistan. That is a solid reason right there. Apart from that, a lot of the Ops in the realm of espionage are conducted on the promise of mutual benefits and maintaining of relationships between the Covert Ops Organizations of different countries.

As for the present situation, there are a lot of reasons for RAW to be maintaining a solid presence in Southern Pakistan and Afghanistan as well, and there are some enabling factors in the form of a freer hand under the present Government dispensation as well.
If you think that the equipment and training level of the BLA, not to mention the efficacy of their attacks on the Pakis, has gone up steadily since 2014 all by their own doing, think again.


Suffice it to say that I know some people personally who are or have been in the know of these things. I dont like to talk much in detail beyond that.

Although, I did mention a book. You can check it out. There are a few others from Lancer Publishers as well. I'll send the names in some time.
To be honest with you this thread mostly has gone to d Gucci gang whining nd useless blabbering OT for some time now.. refreshing to see some Topic so thnx
 

Killbot

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To be honest with you this thread mostly has gone to d Gucci gang whining nd useless blabbering OT for some time now.. refreshing to see some Topic so thnx

I really advise you all to go through this article. These are the kind of ops US SOCOM and JSOC do. So do units like JW GROM, SAS etc., albeit on a much smaller scale. These are 9 raids that were on the scale of the OBL raid, some even more complex. Some even involved retrieval of spies, taking out moving HVTs, hostage rescue, etc.

Anyone who was a yes man gloating about Myanmar op and surgical strikes will be put in his/her place. The Para SF cannot even dream of doing most of these ops, due to their limitations in equipment, training and command structure.

I think our special ops forces are being seriously misused by the army, especially after reading this..

And these were only the ones involving really high value targets... Imagine the sheer amount of intelligence ops, ops with friendly militias, training missions, smaller scale raids, etc. these guys do... And all of the above is within the spectrum of what our soldiers have the capability to do, but don't because of what I mentioned in the above paragraph. If the budget is rationalized, there is no reason our guys cannot be trained and equipped to perform these missions.

And again, fuck $3500 SCAR.

I'd like to hear your opinions.
"Gucci gang whining" huh?
Read the article on top👆
Then think. Could the Indian special forces done any of those operations? If you think so, please tell me how they would do it without night vision. And they are short on night vision. Also, what aircraft would they use? Loud as hell Mi 17s? Or Dhruvs? Either would get shot out of the sky. And how would they maintain surveillance on area of operations? What would they do if shit hits the fan, and they need CAS. We don't have armed drones. And attack choppers can be taken out by Manpads. Americans learned this the hard way. Do they even have enough good comms gear? And can they call in an airstrike if no capture is involved?

Our soldiers physical conditioning is off the charts, but that is not what wins them the fight. Proper equipment ('gucci'), training with that equipment and a good support system and intelligence assets win fights. We are lacking in all of the above.

You were right, @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR , I'm preaching to the choir..
 

HawkisRight

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"Gucci gang whining" huh?
Read the article on top👆
Then think. Could the Indian special forces done any of those operations? If you think so, please tell me how they would do it without night vision. And they are short on night vision. Also, what aircraft would they use? Loud as hell Mi 17s? Or Dhruvs? Either would get shot out of the sky. And how would they maintain surveillance on area of operations? What would they do if shit hits the fan, and they need CAS. We don't have armed drones. And attack choppers can be taken out by Manpads. Americans learned this the hard way. Do they even have enough good comms gear? And can they call in an airstrike if no capture is involved?

Our soldiers physical conditioning is off the charts, but that is not what wins them the fight. Proper equipment ('gucci'), training with that equipment and a good support system and intelligence assets win fights. We are lacking in all of the above.

You were right, @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR , I'm preaching to the choir..
Dude seriously...AMERICA is a lone Superpower They Are d only country in d world that can do what they do We r living in a world order created by Americans after Nagasaki..nad Not just in military domain but in economics, science, intelligence, innovation,R&D there is no comparison..plz Stop this..American borders are Secured Indian borders are not even Settled And still if you want to compare to Yanks then Go for 20 trillion economy wid 3 times size of Indian land mass,1/3 rd population to India And GDP per capita of 62,000 dollars..And yes Indian forces can't do what American forces Do because that's not d Objective of Indian State..Americans at one point of a time(after Soviet collapse) in human history were d most powerful empire ever existed in civilizational timeframe.. At that time Americans controlled planet earth and planet moon.. Nobody can do that.. American Millitary is just a part of that whole process.. jeez this is embarrassing..
 

armyofhind

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Oh, I see. Didn't know that, thanks. So you were sailing... Merchant Navy?
Not Exactly. Survey vessels.

Of course. Even their gear must be highly classified.
I get the sense of sarcasm there. Gear is a very generic term. If you mean the gear that you see on the Operators, of course not.

If you mean in-ops command infrastructure, C2I, SATCOM, specific tactics etc. of course its classified.

Taliban had been anti India only when they were America's puppets in 1990s. After US invaded, they were pro India. To the point that they didn't even comment on abrogation of 370. Declared openly that there was no Ghazwa e Hind, and they wanted good relations with India.
Taliban were never US Puppets. It was the Mujahideen who were US Puppets, formed primarily to fight the Soviets under the cause of Afghan sovereignty. After the Soviet exit from Afghanistan, it was these very same Mujahideen under various warlords, who formed their own militias and claimed dominance over different areas and started pillaging the Afghan Countryside.

Mohammad Omar gathered a group of militia and founded a Islamic ideology driven group precisely to counter these rampant militia groups. Taliban as a group emerged only in 1994.

Ahmad Shah Massoud was one such warlord cum politician/leader, who was the single biggest resistance to Taliban and later, Taliban and Al Qaeda combined, once the Afghan Civil War started. He was friendly to India , as well as to the US and therein, lies the Indian interest.
After the Afghan Civil War died down a bit, Kashmir saw the battle hardened terrorists coming in all the way through Pakistan from Afghanistan.

RAW maintaining strong presence in Afghanistan is to deal with Pakistan. Has nothing to do with Taliban. Neither does funding of BLA and BLF. Balogh insurgency went up because Pakistani sponsored terrorism in India saw an increase from 2016 onwards. And destabilising Pakistan is in our interest.
This is in the present timeframe. Not earlier. At present, the need for a strong and efficient BLA is also to counter CPEC, which cannot be complete without going through Balochistan.

Right. So you don't have anything solid either.
Like I said earlier, you are free to believe as you wish. If you are expecting names, designations, scans of documents etc. for establishing veracity, it is not going to happen.
I only shared what I have heard firsthand, from people who have been in charge. Proving a point is hardly my concern here. If you dont wish to accept it, fair enough.

And do these books actually tell you about operations? That would be in violation of Official Secrets act, so probably not
They do, but not revealing any specific details and obviously after names have been changed.
And just FYI, any book published on the Indian Military or intelligence setup has to pass vetting from the Def Min before getting published. So there is no question of OSA being violated. It would be helpful if you actually cared to explore the books before presuming stuff.

The Kaoboys of R&AW: Down Memory Lane - B Raman
Inside IB and RAW: The Rolling Stone that Gathered Moss - K. Sankaran Nair

These are two more books for info on RAW.

This is the last from me on this.
 

Killbot

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Taliban were never US Puppets. It was the Mujahideen who were US Puppets, formed primarily to fight the Soviets under the cause of Afghan sovereignty. After the Soviet exit from Afghanistan, it was these very same Mujahideen under various warlords, who formed their own militias and claimed dominance over different areas and started pillaging the Afghan Countryside.

Mohammad Omar gathered a group of militia and founded a Islamic ideology driven group precisely to counter these rampant militia group
The Mujahideen who fought the Soviets became the Taliban. OBL, Mohammad Omar, Ayman al-Zwahiri, etc led the Mujahideen.

If you mean in-ops command infrastructure, C2I, SATCOM, specific tactics etc. of course its classified.
Probably IN infrastructure and channels.

This is in the present timeframe. Not earlier. At present, the need for a strong and efficient BLA is also to counter CPEC, which cannot be complete without going through Balochistan.
CPEC or not, India has had nothing to do with Taliban since the IC 814 hijacking. And why would we waste our resources when we know US is gonna support resistance against Talis. Also, CIA was there before anyone else, which means they would have blocked India out (sanctions, US-India relations were not good). One thing is for sure, RAW has to have presence in Afghanistan. Since we have pumped billions of dollars there..
 

Killbot

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This is the last from me on this.
My feelings exactly. Let's just agree to disagree.
They do, but not revealing any specific details and obviously after names have been changed.
And just FYI, any book published on the Indian Military or intelligence setup has to pass vetting from the Def Min before getting published. So there is no question of OSA being violated. It would be helpful if you actually cared to explore the books before presuming stuff.

The Kaoboys of R&AW: Down Memory Lane - B Raman
Inside IB and RAW: The Rolling Stone that Gathered Moss - K. Sankaran Nair

These are two more books for info on RAW.
Alright I'll check them out.
 

Mikel

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"Gucci gang whining" huh?
Read the article on top👆
Then think. Could the Indian special forces done any of those operations? If you think so, please tell me how they would do it without night vision. And they are short on night vision. Also, what aircraft would they use? Loud as hell Mi 17s? Or Dhruvs? Either would get shot out of the sky. And how would they maintain surveillance on area of operations? What would they do if shit hits the fan, and they need CAS. We don't have armed drones. And attack choppers can be taken out by Manpads. Americans learned this the hard way. Do they even have enough good comms gear? And can they call in an airstrike if no capture is involved?

Our soldiers physical conditioning is off the charts, but that is not what wins them the fight. Proper equipment ('gucci'), training with that equipment and a good support system and intelligence assets win fights. We are lacking in all of the above.

You were right, @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR , I'm preaching to the choir..
Where does Operation Khukri rank among these? That was conducted 20 years ago by Para SF.
 

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