Indian Special Forces

Bhadra

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Oh i didnt know we were talking about haircuts by barber and underwear washing by dhoobi.

I thought we are talking about how non qualified a Para SF officer is to lead a Brigade or a Div as suggested by you.

And going by your primitive logic of things may i know how well did your ASC or Infantry battalions perform in IPKF?


Or Maybe the Maldives ops..or why dont you share on this thread how SF units are the only hope in some ops if you have seen some?

You compare a SF unit to a Infantry unit and show your bias and knowledge of things.

And like i said..there is no Inf bat whose Major will ever advice a GOC about OPS..not dhoobi ghaat..Freaking OPS.
All officers of all branches are fully qualified to undertake jobs that they are trained for, work for and are exposed to. Be it Engineers, Signals, artillery or Infantry... every body has a job description and so does an SF officer.
Yet all of them do not command units they have been working in for 15-16 years because there are no so many vacancies. Resultantly there is a selection system and comparative merit. That merit consists of his operational performance, his courses and gradings, his exposure to the environment such as being exposed to G1 or AQ of a brigade, a tenure in MO, Div HQ or being on ERE with Assam Rifles, RR, SG or SFF or NSG etc. Naturally an officer who gains merit due to all these factor gets selected.

Arms or Job specialization ends with the Command of a company and then a battalion. After that there is very few job specialization Brigs and generals. For SF there are none and there can not be any. An SF specialization should end with a Lt Col and by about 35 -40 years of age whether he is an officer or a Jawan,

After a Colonels rank, an SF Officer has be a general cadre officers and it is at that stage he needs to found in the comparative merit of training, exposures and experience in applying formations in all arms and all-terrain combat. It is at this stage an SF colonel lags behind due to his SF specialization and lack of adequate exposure to other things. A Brigadier or Maj Gen will not employ SF but all other Arms and Services.

It is a hopeless case to suggest that an SF officer be given command of an Infantry battalion or a Brigade when he has not served in an infantry battalion even for a day...

US SOF or British SAS and all SOF officers all around the world by majority fade away as Majors. No one allows an US SOF officer to command a marine battalion or US Infantry battalions. Even the SSG officers in an environment like that of Pakistan do not enjoy that luxury.

Roman generals were never gladiators... there is nothing new in it and there is nothing unique that happens in the Indian Army except that all SF officer enjoy the unique status of being counted as Infantry cadre officers and provided abundant opportunities in spit of the majority of them not knowing anything about Infantry,,

What happens to my Akhada pahalwan around 35 - 40 is what happens to an SF officer,,,

That is about all... let us not tread further in some superior quality, superior IQ and superhuman nonsense because that is less than truth..
 

rkhanna

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Found this on Youtube.

How many missions like these have we pulled off? IMO, more than worth keeping a count of.

Yea MARCOS has done a few anti piracy ops. So has PASKAL and the a number of other VbSS teams
 
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aditya g

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I am working on a database of such ops. will share soon.

Found this on Youtube.

How many missions like these have we pulled off? IMO, more than worth keeping a count of.

Yea MARCOS has done a few anti piracy ops. So has PASKAL and the a number of other VbSS teams
 

aditya g

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There is an overall imbalance at general level in the Army - in favour of Infantry officers. One simple reason is that the maximum vacancies at CO level are in Infantry, and then we have large formations upto division level for infantry. How many armour and arty divisions do we have in the Army? How many division level formations for SF? exactly 1.

In Gen Deepak Kapoor's tenure there was a hue and cry by armour officers due to fewer vacancies available to them.

All officers of all branches are fully qualified to undertake jobs that they are trained for, work for and are exposed to. Be it Engineers, Signals, artillery or Infantry... every body has a job description and so does an SF officer.
Yet all of them do not command units they have been working in for 15-16 years because there are no so many vacancies. Resultantly there is a selection system and comparative merit. That merit consists of his operational performance, his courses and gradings, his exposure to the environment such as being exposed to G1 or AQ of a brigade, a tenure in MO, Div HQ or being on ERE with Assam Rifles, RR, SG or SFF or NSG etc. Naturally an officer who gains merit due to all these factor gets selected.

Arms or Job specialization ends with the Command of a company and then a battalion. After that there is very few job specialization Brigs and generals. For SF there are none and there can not be any. An SF specialization should end with a Lt Col and by about 35 -40 years of age whether he is an officer or a Jawan,

After a Colonels rank, an SF Officer has be a general cadre officers and it is at that stage he needs to found in the comparative merit of training, exposures and experience in applying formations in all arms and all-terrain combat. It is at this stage an SF colonel lags behind due to his SF specialization and lack of adequate exposure to other things. A Brigadier or Maj Gen will not employ SF but all other Arms and Services.

It is a hopeless case to suggest that an SF officer be given command of an Infantry battalion or a Brigade when he has not served in an infantry battalion even for a day...

US SOF or British SAS and all SOF officers all around the world by majority fade away as Majors. No one allows an US SOF officer to command a marine battalion or US Infantry battalions. Even the SSG officers in an environment like that of Pakistan do not enjoy that luxury.

Roman generals were never gladiators... there is nothing new in it and there is nothing unique that happens in the Indian Army except that all SF officer enjoy the unique status of being counted as Infantry cadre officers and provided abundant opportunities in spit of the majority of them not knowing anything about Infantry,,

What happens to my Akhada pahalwan around 35 - 40 is what happens to an SF officer,,,

That is about all... let us not tread further in some superior quality, superior IQ and superhuman nonsense because that is less than truth..
 

Bhadra

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There is an overall imbalance at general level in the Army - in favour of Infantry officers.
Does imbalance mean an imbalance in troops to the task? That is Infantry battalions are floating around without adequate requirement? The case, in fact, is the other way round. There is a dire scarcity of infantry in the Indian Army which is then fulfilled with alternate but inadequate methods like Assam Rifles, ITBP, BSF, SSB, TA, RR, and even going down to employing Home Guards and state police forces. If one is aware of the rudimentary level of operational scenarios, it is abundantly clear.

Does imbalance mean three colonels are commanding a battalion instead of one?

Another imbalance that can be created is in the intake level. Are Infantry battalion intake of officers half of the requirement as compared to other Arms and Services? This imbalance can be created so that more numbers of officers become colonel and satisfaction level is higher. That is what happened in the case of ASC and Engineers for quite some time.

Can you please plow down Himalayas, Pir Punjal, Shivalik or carry out massive nuclear blasts to level those mountains so that infantry requirement is reduced?

The only imbalance that exists between Infantry/artillery and other arms and services is the length of Command tenures. For Infantry a command tenure more than two to two and half years is a tough proposition especially when the battalion is in Field areas. Whereas command tenures of EME Battalion CO in Ambala or a Armoured Regt CO at Jhansit can be and should be three years and beyond. Due to more frequent changes, the vacancies generated is marginally higher. That is all. But those are functional necessities.

One simple reason is that the maximum vacancies at CO level are in Infantry,
This is required to be viewed this way -

* Are the CO or Colonels vacancies more than the proportion of Infantry battalions?
* Are the number of Infantry officers marginally less in the ratio of the candidate to vacancies. Say in the Selection board is there an imbalance between the numbers of Lt col considered and the number of vacancies? I think here the clear disadvantage exist in case of infantry where there are 20 Lt Col to one-col vacancy as compared to other Arms and Services where there are only ten Lt Cols present for the vacancy of one Colonel. This gross disadvantage exists for Infantry is all cases whether it is vacancy od DSSC, UN Tennure, Higher Comd or lower Comd. One ASC officers has to go even if the selection is between two and ten infantry officers are selected out of 200. Where is the imbalance?

These are empirical data and can not be hidden. Go and check the status some time as a matter of curiosity and your jaw will drop.

and then we have large formations upto division level for infantry.
Indian Army functions based on the concept of Arms and Services units formed into specialised groupings called brigades. Brigade is truly and Arms specific specialised formation such as an Infantry brigade, artillery brigade, Engineer Brigade and Armoured brigade, All Brigades are reserved for specific cadre except Infantry/mountain brigades.
The division is the first all arms formation and is commanded by all arms general cadre.

Except for Infantry and armour officers who is "supper night carry on" general cadre all other Arms such as artillery, AD, Signals, Engineers, ASC, AOC or EME officers have their dedicated cadres up to Lt gen level as also luxury of joining the "supper night".

In nutshell Infantry is disadvantaged in not having special to corps vacancies as also sharing their Corps specialised vacancies of brigadiers with all Arms and services. an Infantry officer is not placed at the command of artillery or armoured brigade but every tom dick and harry is given infantry brigade.

How many armour and arty divisions do we have in the Army? How many division level formations for SF? exactly .
We have as many armoured divisions or artillery divisions as required and so is the case with an infantry division. again here where everyone can screw an infantry division or cadre officers enjoy the luxury of screwing armoured and artillery divisions. Why so ??

SF Division? What is that and who has that? Even a vast organisation like US SOF do not have a division. They may be having many generals but not a SF Division in battle.

In Gen Deepak Kapoor's tenure there was a hue and cry by armour officers due to fewer vacancies available to them.
Reflection of minority persecution complex of Indian polity in the Armed Forces. This all propaganda has no factual base and are blind prejudices that realities[/quote][/quote]
 
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abingdonboy

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Good as psychological warfare, but if India wanted/had the guts - all you have to do is fly a fighter aircraft w/ standoff PGM's or a land/ship based Brahmos battery to send a couple munitions hurtling towards Saeed's office/residence/known location.

Same for anyone else like Dawood or Lakhvi or Syed Salahuddin.

India chooses not to.
No it would have to be a SF mission otherwise the Pakis would never admit to it. This the same reason they sent DEVGRU into Abbotobad, they wanted to recover the body and also any evidence that was on the site

Anyway like you said it’s about will or a lack thereof. You really think R&AW doesn’t know where Saeed or Dawood are 24/7?

This kind of fan fiction does nothing but soothe the egos of fanboys

the surgical strikes and Balakot have shown The Pakis are just barking dogs and that India has a lot of scope to pursue threats to its national security across the border

Call their bluff again, remember Hafiz has a bounty on his head and is an internationally designated terrorist, if he is produced in India does Pakistan really want to start crying about India infringing their sovereignty? Will they actually demand him back? Will they really want to open that can of worms ?
 

Lancer

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No it would have to be a SF mission otherwise the Pakis would never admit to it. This the same reason they sent DEVGRU into Abbotobad, they wanted to recover the body and also any evidence that was on the site

Anyway like you said it’s about will or a lack thereof. You really think R&AW doesn’t know where Saeed or Dawood are 24/7?

This kind of fan fiction does nothing but soothe the egos of fanboys

the surgical strikes and Balakot have shown The Pakis are just barking dogs and that India has a lot of scope to pursue threats to its national security across the border

Call their bluff again, remember Hafiz has a bounty on his head and is an internationally designated terrorist, if he is produced in India does Pakistan really want to start crying about India infringing their sovereignty? Will they actually demand him back? Will they really want to open that can of worms ?
Picking him up/killing him in person would obviously be ideal - but also substantially more difficult. If you know 100% where he is, and send a munition that'll take that whole location out/char anything in there - then that's good enough.

If through some almost impossible jinn-like miracle, he somehow survives (you could pick up chatter, you could get humint from the area, or he might even show up again in a threat video/coordinating attacks) - you can find out, and you can always take another shot at him with a bigger bomb at some future date.

The potential for failure/embarrassment is infinitely greater with trying to send a team in to do it. Pak didn't really expect the US to do what they did, they don't watch that Western border like they watch the one with us, we don't have stealth helos (or America's big dick energy to scare off any Paki retaliation before it happens), and we don't have Seal Team 6.
 

abingdonboy

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NSG

Old pic but.....yeah

View attachment 60440
posted a while back, it’s a photo op so one can forgive (to an extent) haven’t seen any backwards fitted sights in real world ops or dril

Sorry this the logic that conventional commanders have used for eons for decades. Doesn't pass muster. Why do SOF officers in other countries manage to go higher ? Thye have command staff colleges to get them to mission shift.

SOF operators and officers on avg have a higher IQ than normal military.(there is a wide ranging of social / capability studies to support that).

They have a far greater entrepreneural spirit to problem solve and overcome. And SF officer would be a massive credit to the Larger military.

A great part of what you have articulated is the very reason why the larger army is stuck in the 1980s.
if you look at most Western militaries much of their SF community do remain in the SF unit until retirement and very few go into higher positions, the few that do do so within the dedicated special operations command hierarchy that’s in place in the respective nationS


Thats what i have been saying for a long time.

If the Para SF battalions showed intent to change i would have been very happy.

But may this thread forgive me for saying that i am not even impressed by the changes in NSG in the last 12 years post 26/11.

And i am someone who gets to see NSG operators daily either jogging or driving around and let me tell you that the pictures you see are 10% of the total unit of the best equipped.

I have seen them wear shitty helmets and bpj in 2020 or none doing a guarding role.

We are very far to be even be decently equipping 70% of the unit forget about getting whats latest.

Plus the big thing..tactics and equipments are evolving very fast and our units are at a primitive level.It will not be easy to be up to date suddenly...I am afraid the gap is HUGE!
For base guarding and PT it’s unlikely you’d use your Gucci gear anyway.

in their mock drills across India they seem to have their top quality gear, see Pathankot too
Your first words

What was so hard about what we did in Burma?

Just because what appears to be text book Commando OP, doesn't make it easy. I was merely stating that nothing about this op was easy from the get-go. I can assure you 90% of the world's SF would fail in such an op let alone do it 100/100, text book op as it may appear. I see disrespect when you make it sound like it was a cake walk, it cheapens the effort put in. Also, while a text book 100/100 execution is always welcome, sadly reality of war doesn't grant such luck always. Even if a mission is accomplished, we must always respect that mere fact that men of valor went out there into the wilderness while we were sitting on our asses.

'Mission Accomplished' is the mission requirement, 100/100 execution can only happen when the Mission is accomplished and men are back without any injuries, casualties, having successfully navigated all the surprises that come along the way for each Op. 'Mission Accomplished' in almost all war time scenarios have lead to sacrifices in blood.
You are always saying “90% of SFs couldn’t do this” but that’s just an opinion based on nothing at all. I’m almost certain that given the extreme conditioning most western SFs have combined with their technical proficiency and equipment levels they could do as good a job if not better.

Picking him up/killing him in person would obviously be ideal - but also substantially more difficult. If you know 100% where he is, and send a munition that'll take that whole location out/char anything in there - then that's good enough.

If through some almost impossible jinn-like miracle, he somehow survives (you could pick up chatter, you could get humint from the area, or he might even show up again in a threat video/coordinating attacks) - you can find out, and you can always take another shot at him with a bigger bomb at some future date.

The potential for failure/embarrassment is infinitely greater with trying to send a team in to do it. Pak didn't really expect the US to do what they did, they don't watch that Western border like they watch the one with us, we don't have stealth helos (or America's big dick energy to scare off any Paki retaliation before it happens), and we don't have Seal Team 6.
Like I said if you go for an airstrike Pakis will just repeat their response to Balakot and say you only hit some trees, they never even accepted OBL was on their soil.

I also am pretty certain the Pakis have gamed that out- they likely have dozens of recordings of HS to play for any eventuality and for years after to ‘disprove’ India struck him.

This is before you even start talking about collateral damage.

a ground mission is the only way to go, give a group of professionals time to plan and unlimited resources and they’ll give you the plan. Look at the Israeli entebbe mission for inspiration, where there’s a will there’s a way. What’s lacking is the will.


+fear of failure is not a justifiable reason not to do something, this is a weak man’s logic
 

Lancer

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Pakis will just repeat their response to Balakot and say you only hit some trees
Who cares what they'll do as long as you get the target?

they likely have dozens of recordings of HS to play for any eventuality
Let them show him alive in person.

Look at the Israeli entebbe mission for inspiration, where there’s a will there’s a way.
Come on man, that was Uganda in the 70s - and the Israelis knew every inch because they used to train Ugandans + knew the guys that designed that airport.

fear of failure is not a justifiable reason not to do something
Common Sense =/= Fear.

In a ground mission like that, there are a million points where something could go wrong and derail the whole thing - leading to captured and killed operatives, failed mission, massive international embarrassment etc

Not to mention, one screwed up mission closes a lot of doors for future ones, leadership automatically becomes more risk averse, and the Gvt which heads that mission would potentially suffer severe loss of face/political capital.

It makes zero sense to go through all that risk to *maybe* get a chance to kill him, when you can drop a bomb. As long as you know where he is, and know that you got him - nothing else matters.
 
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rkhanna

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if you look at most Western militaries much of their SF community do remain in the SF unit until retirement and very few go into higher positions, the few that do do so within the dedicated special operations command hierarchy that’s in place in the respective nationS
You are talking about enlisted ranks. While some officers are indeed lifers they do rise high within SOCOM itself. But you will find a number of higher ranks within the wider army including military intelligence with SF/ranger tabs.

The "cake eater" class as they are known

Numerous staff colleges and other military schools help reorient good leaders to the wider military
 

abingdonboy

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Who cares what they'll do as long as you get the target?



Let them show him alive in person.



Come on man, that was Uganda in the 70s - and the Israelis knew every inch because they used to train Ugandans + knew the guys that designed that airport.



Common Sense =/= Fear.

In a ground mission like that, there are a million points where something could go wrong and derail the whole thing - leading to captured and killed operatives, failed mission, massive international embarrassment etc

Not to mention, one screwed up mission closes a lot of doors for future ones, leadership automatically becomes more risk averse, and the Gvt which heads that mission would potentially suffer severe loss of face/political capital.

It makes zero sense to go through all that risk to *maybe* get a chance to kill him, when you can drop a bomb. As long as you know where he is, and know that you got him - nothing else matters.
I’ve made my point buddy if I replied to you it would just be repeating myself.

it’s not about just you knowing but a large part of this is demonstrating to the rest of the world. If you want to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory aka Balkot and 27 Feb 2019 then by all means go for an air strike and see the same sh!tshow follow
You are talking about enlisted ranks. While some officers are indeed lifers they do rise high within SOCOM itself. But you will find a number of higher ranks within the wider army including military intelligence with SF/ranger tabs.

The "cake eater" class as they are known

Numerous staff colleges and other military schools help reorient good leaders to the wider military
Most SF officers in the West use SF as a stepping stone in their career that’s true. But the Indian army seems to have a serious problem in the inflexibility of their officer class, how many non-infantry officers have become COAS?

AFSOD/SOCOM should provide a larger pipeline of SF officers (from all 3 services) rising up the rank structure of their respective branches but whether there will be cross pollination into the larger military rank structure is hard to know.

ranger tab is different to being in the ranger battalion,ranger school is a multi-month leadership course that most senior infantry leaders go through, it’s kind of like the commando course at Belguam. Having a ranger tab doesn’t make them rangers and very few SF officers in the US mil go up the ranks in the conventional military. The senior SF officers have gone up the ranks of SOCOM and occasionally from there transfer over to a theatre command or training school (which happens in the IA too though it should be noted- there are combat and staff schools that have been run by SF officers in the past and many SF officers have served as instructors in OTA and NDA)

It should also be taken into account that comparably there are very very few SF officers so the numbers game favours conventional officers rising up the ranks inherently
 

Lancer

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If you want to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory aka Balkot and 27 Feb 2019 then by all means go for an air strike and see the same sh!tshow follow
What's this obsession with having to get Pakistan to admit everything, desperately looking to the world for belief/approval?

If you know where your target is, level the fucking area and put out crisp, clear communication. Matter closed. When the Israelis know there's a target somewhere, they grind it to dust, put out their communication, and beyond that those who want to believe can believe, the rest can go fuck themselves. Rinse and Repeat.
 

aditya g

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I was making a limited point about SF avenues by comparing to Infantry, and how SF officers could be retained.

Though SF is basically infantry, the avenues for promotion/growth are directly proportional to the number of vacancies at General level which could be "reserved" for SF officers based on the merit of their specialisation.

AFSOD is headed by Major General so that is one confirmed SF general. There is 50th Ind Parachute Brigade which is headed by Para officer for example.

SFF is headed by Major General as well, but by looking at the history Infantry officers seem to be heading it most of the time. Why not Parachute Regiment or Para SF.

Even at General level, many of the posts can be specific or "reserved" (I dont like that word either). for example, NSG's IG (Ops) should be from Para SF. If we do that, we will find more SF officers not leaving the Army early.

Does imbalance mean an imbalance in troops to the task? That is Infantry battalions are floating around without adequate requirement? The case, in fact, is the other way round. There is a dire scarcity of infantry in the Indian Army which is then fulfilled with alternate but inadequate methods like Assam Rifles, ITBP, BSF, SSB, TA, RR, and even going down to employing Home Guards and state police forces. If one is aware of the rudimentary level of operational scenarios, it is abundantly clear.

Does imbalance mean three colonels are commanding a battalion instead of one?

Another imbalance that can be created is in the intake level. Are Infantry battalion intake of officers half of the requirement as compared to other Arms and Services? This imbalance can be created so that more numbers of officers become colonel and satisfaction level is higher. That is what happened in the case of ASC and Engineers for quite some time.

Can you please plow down Himalayas, Pir Punjal, Shivalik or carry out massive nuclear blasts to level those mountains so that infantry requirement is reduced?

The only imbalance that exists between Infantry/artillery and other arms and services is the length of Command tenures. For Infantry a command tenure more than two to two and half years is a tough proposition especially when the battalion is in Field areas. Whereas command tenures of EME Battalion CO in Ambala or a Armoured Regt CO at Jhansit can be and should be three years and beyond. Due to more frequent changes, the vacancies generated is marginally higher. That is all. But those are functional necessities.



This is required to be viewed this way -

* Are the CO or Colonels vacancies more than the proportion of Infantry battalions?
* Are the number of Infantry officers marginally less in the ratio of the candidate to vacancies. Say in the Selection board is there an imbalance between the numbers of Lt col considered and the number of vacancies? I think here the clear disadvantage exist in case of infantry where there are 20 Lt Col to one-col vacancy as compared to other Arms and Services where there are only ten Lt Cols present for the vacancy of one Colonel. This gross disadvantage exists for Infantry is all cases whether it is vacancy od DSSC, UN Tennure, Higher Comd or lower Comd. One ASC officers has to go even if the selection is between two and ten infantry officers are selected out of 200. Where is the imbalance?

These are empirical data and can not be hidden. Go and check the status some time as a matter of curiosity and your jaw will drop.



Indian Army functions based on the concept of Arms and Services units formed into specialised groupings called brigades. Brigade is truly and Arms specific specialised formation such as an Infantry brigade, artillery brigade, Engineer Brigade and Armoured brigade, All Brigades are reserved for specific cadre except Infantry/mountain brigades.
The division is the first all arms formation and is commanded by all arms general cadre.

Except for Infantry and armour officers who is "supper night carry on" general cadre all other Arms such as artillery, AD, Signals, Engineers, ASC, AOC or EME officers have their dedicated cadres up to Lt gen level as also luxury of joining the "supper night".

In nutshell Infantry is disadvantaged in not having special to corps vacancies as also sharing their Corps specialised vacancies of brigadiers with all Arms and services. an Infantry officer is not placed at the command of artillery or armoured brigade but every tom dick and harry is given infantry brigade.



We have as many armoured divisions or artillery divisions as required and so is the case with an infantry division. again here where everyone can screw an infantry division or cadre officers enjoy the luxury of screwing armoured and artillery divisions. Why so ??

SF Division? What is that and who has that? Even a vast organisation like US SOF do not have a division. They may be having many generals but not a SF Division in battle.



Reflection of minority persecution complex of Indian polity in the Armed Forces. This all propaganda has no factual base and are blind prejudices that realities
[/quote]
[/QUOTE]
 

mupper

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"US SOF or British SAS and all SOF officers all around the world by majority fade away as Majors. No one allows an US SOF officer to command a marine battalion or US Infantry battalions. Even the SSG officers in an environment like that of Pakistan do not enjoy that luxury. "

I don't think that is completely accurate, in the US, SOCOM especially UASSOC is so large there are plenty of opportunities to advance past FG and serve in non SOF capacities. The current head of SOCOM, Gen Richard Clarke staffed both SOF and commanded conventional infantry non consecutively.

His predecessor Gen Raymond Thomas went from Rangers and Delta to being Deputy CO of the 1st Armored division....

The British system is even more convuluted, in as a Lt for 3 years, out maybe back in as a Captain, out again, back as a Major etc etc with each available position getting thinner and thinner to man.

More than a few Para, Guards and even RTR etc Officers with SAS wings floating about.....
 

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