Indian Special Forces (archived)

[Yodha]

The demand was made a year ago after SS in the East.The requirement was for training initially and not op.

The demand was always there. But the opportunity and the need to cash it was important at that time.

 

[Commando 01]

All that gear and excitement.... I would like you to ask questions and I'd get them answered by an SF guy. May be all of those questions in a single page or post would help it.

Apart from that, I'm surprised that everyone is talking about gear and training but the main challenge is mitigating the excessive PROLIFERATION of SF by raising special units to counter terrorists. It should be Infantry. Period.

When you have something in excessive quantity, it loses its importance. That's what is happening with the SF units. The Airborne units we regard as special are with airforce in PLA. Just think about it. Using an Airborne unit for Cordons in Valley. It's just outright "stupé".

I believe (only thing I can do), limit the units, give them funds (of course at the cost of other units), make them assemble under a single command. Place them all over India with more focus on vital/important areas. Dedicated air assets and pilots(to be trained with the SF personnel, to make the aviators understand, in what way they should support them in Ops). And limit the media coverage. Baaki training, running and ragda toh kaafi hai.

Yes, we are having ghatak platoons only for these situations, they should be the primary responders. But on the other hand one needs to get hands on experience of real combat for boosting the confidence and performance. No matter How hard you train, a buzzing bullet of real combat will give incomparable chills to your nerves. That's why using SF units in CT ops only for giving them the real combat experience as there training curriculum is fruitful.

 

[Yodha]

Yes, we are having ghatak platoons only for these situations, they should be the primary responders. But on the other hand one needs to get hands on experience of real combat for boosting the confidence and performance. No matter How hard you train, a buzzing bullet of real combat will give incomparable chills to your nerves. That's why using SF units in CT ops only for giving them the real combat experience as there training curriculum is fruitful.

Too much for SF to be used for decades in CI/CT for giving them experience and stupid to neglect infantry and what about boosting their nerves to tolerate the buzzing sounds of real bullets.

 

[Commando 01]

Too much for SF to be used for decades in CI/CT for giving them experience and stupid to neglect infantry and what about boosting their nerves to tolerate the buzzing sounds of real bullets.

Agreed, we are using them too much in such ops where regulars should operate. I think CT ops in kashmir is a good plateform for NSG to have some experience and practice there skills as well.

 

[operatorgrumby]

Fair but as an oberservation all the armies jn thr wrold who use bullpups - Brits, Israelis, french, Austrian all use Conventional designs for their SOF

Also the TARs we use have themselves evolved in Israel. Despite the great strides and plus points of the rifle, They are unbalanced and butt heavy, Slower bag change, and harder to shoot around corners / harder to manipulate the gun around corners + issues wjth ambidextrous operations .

The M4 is getting more and more prevalent within Indian SF for a reason - but I must admit opinion is plot

Well he stated everything that i would have. As good as they say the Tavor is, it still isn't in the league of a modern AR-15 in terms of mobility, ambidextrous capabilty & usability for a SOF Operator. And these are the most common vital factors of how an Operator operates.

However personal opinion can differ though.....

 

[Yodha]

First off. Welcome, first time i am interacting with you.

On the Tavor - My filters are based on conversation with current Indian Army users, reading feedback from Israeli Military users and from Civilian Shooters (some ex mil) in Canada and the United States

1. the Tavor does get unbalanced a bit. You will notice that the barrel in single hand will tend to point up. Yes ofcourse when in shooting stance there is no problem
2. Assume operator skill and adapting to rifle being same. a conventional rifle will always enact a faster mag change vs a Bullpup

[Both issues were specifically addressed by the Israelis in the Tar2]

3. Shooting corners in a dynamic kill house may not allow for Canted Sights. but a conventional weapon is far easier to manouver / manipulate in cramped space/tight corners - You can put the butt of the gun under the armpit and extend and contract. While tiling and shooting the Mag in the Tavor ends up biting into your side. - real world shooters feedback

4. i donot like the AK in most senarios other than supression fire. but thats just me.

The TAVOR is a Grade A rifle - easily Top 5 Assault rifle in the world. Between a 10-13"in HK416 and TAVOR which would you pick. As rifles they are equal to the task. For operator efficiency the HK has a slight edge.

(my 2 paisa only)






Been saying this for a while. If Ghatak is trained, equipped an empowered fitting their task - SF can be freed for their Critical Mission Stature and you dont need a 10k+ soldiers.

But that being said SOF evolution is a bit outside the grain of Infantry - their tasking, organization, strategy and C&C+Orbat need to be thought of as a Separate Capability

"Imagine putting the butt under the armpit"?? Never saw something like that. I don't know on what basis some of you diss Tavor and go all gaga about AR style rifle, but understand that now we have Tavor, it's not going to go anywhere. Not for sometime.

While tilting, the Tavor never bites the side. The magazine is way ahead from the butt. I'm fact it won't even touch a grenade pouch if you choose to attach one to your vest.

 

[Yodha]

Agreed, we are using them too much in such ops where regulars should operate. I think CT ops in kashmir is a good plateform for NSG to have some experience and practice there skills as well.

I never want to see NSG to be used in CI/CT.
I want them to be in the place where they are now. I want them to have their time doing what they are doing right now. No need to pull another force in to this rutt. They are doing a good job.

 

[ezsasa]

Then the COs are either stupid or geniuses in their own minds. I believe they had reasons, but it doesn't mean that they won't do it.

Added this part later:

May be the time to plan and train was less. Remember, the demand was a quick action in limited time. I believe they were right to PROTEST(not deny). You can't plot the mission on a map and cut the fence and cross the border. Training saves lives and hands you a memorable victory.

to clarify: the protest was about pulling the chaps from active ops in the valley.

 

[ezsasa]

I never want to see NSG to be used in CI/CT.
I want them to be in the place where they are now. I want them to have their time doing what they are doing right now. No need to pull another force in to this rutt. They are doing a good job.

THEORETICALLY of course, Since they are not being allowed to used for ops in the valley anyways.


in this scenario, how would NSG get combat experience without being tested in the field?

 

[rkhanna]

"Imagine putting the butt under the armpit"?? Never saw something like that. I don't know on what basis some of you diss Tavor and go all gaga about AR style rifle, but understand that now we have Tavor, it's not going to go anywhere. Not for sometime.

While tilting, the Tavor never bites the side. The magazine is way ahead from the butt. I'm fact it won't even touch a grenade pouch if you choose to attach one to your vest.

Not dissing the Tavor at all nor defending the AR. ..just pointing out that for SOF conventional layout has an edge over the Bullpup. Was pointing out the Tavor as it's the primary Bullpup we have and like you said - here to stay - atleast in the quantities we have.

And for the record - if you rotate your firing hand wrist with the rifle. The mag does hit the side. It's happened to me. Manipulating the Bullpup is not thrnmost comfortable nor does it feel the most natural compared to a conventional layout .

Maybe if we meet somewhere I can explain via personal animation.

Nonetheless my original post was in response to another member mentioning the Tavor - we can continue of the small arms thread if needed

 

[aditya g]

This is IAF Garud Commandos!!
STAR 21 with Nimrod 6*40 sight with glock 19 sidearm!!
This is GTAR 21 with Arsenal 40mm under barrel grenade launcher and MOR red dot sight and Glock 17 sidearm!! View attachment 49588

Interesting location of the sidearm

Is that a logo/insignia of his unit on the poster? @Unknowncommando 2

 

[aditya g]

Fair but as an oberservation all the armies jn thr wrold who use bullpups - Brits, Israelis, french, Austrian all use Conventional designs for their SOF

Also the TARs we use have themselves evolved in Israel. Despite the great strides and plus points of the rifle, They are unbalanced and butt heavy, Slower bag change, and harder to shoot around corners / harder to manipulate the gun around corners + issues wjth ambidextrous operations .

The M4 is getting more and more prevalent within Indian SF for a reason - but I must admit opinion is plot

Bullpups are also a hassle to carry on montains apparently.

 

[EternalNxg]

Does anybody know the status of tonbo made bnvd p

Is it procured by our SF or not
Or it is yet to tested.

 

[Bhadra]

Too much for SF to be used for decades in CI/CT for giving them experience and stupid to neglect infantry and what about boosting their nerves to tolerate the buzzing sounds of real bullets.

Sixty percent of RR is infantry and almost everyone by now has had one or two tenures in RR. AR, SFF etc are also not bereft of that experience. It was only yesterday when guns fell silent in Assam, Nagaland and Manipur.

You think being regularly under medium artillery / mortar shells, facing ATGM, Sniper fire and all kinds of shit on LC is less than CT/CI exposure to say hello to a bullet. Me thinks all SF guys must be made to spend minimum one year in those forward bunkers of Jhangar, Baaz or Toothmari Gali, or Durga or Sarla battalions to realize what being under fire means. They can have an iron belt around their necks to save those from being cut off in a BAT action..

 

[IndiaRising]

Sixty percent of RR is infantry and almost everyone by now has had one or two tenures in RR. AR, SFF etc are also not bereft of that experience. It was only yesterday when guns fell silent in Assam, Nagaland and Manipur.

You think being regularly under medium artillery / mortar shells, facing ATGM, Sniper fire and all kinds of shit on LC is less than CT/CI exposure to say hello to a bullet. Me thinks all SF guys must be made to spend minimum one year in those forward bunkers of Jhangar, Baaz or Toothmari Gali, or Durga or Sarla battalions to realize what being under fire means. They can have an iron belt around their necks to save those from being cut off in a BAT action..

Para SF are routinely deployed on the LoC for anti-infiltration duties and also tactical cross-border engagements. if you look at the citation of the Para SF operatives in the last couple of years, it confirms my statement. As far as CT/CI roles are considered in the hinterland, Para SF are used as a measure of last resort, only when all other measures are deemed to be unsuccessful. One such example would be the Pampore encounter in 2016.

 

[EternalNxg]

Does anybody know the status of tonbo made bnvd p

Is it procured by our SF or not
Or it is yet to tested.

I don't know the main reasons for delay for the procurement of these, but I will say that by now our SF must be ready to be equipped with these.
We even saw that how Para SF boys have acquired exfil helmets with nvg mounts on them.

Oh and another noob question--
How costly is a communication headset
Which are used in high cut helmets???

 

[Yodha]

What's the purpose of NSG being sent to have combat experience? Almost all encounters end up with the house getting demolished with the terror shits getting blown up.

What's wrong with having a force dedicatedly specialized in what NSG is? Why to fit it in a equation where it doesn't?

THEORETICALLY of course, Since they are not being allowed to used for ops in the valley anyways.


in this scenario, how would NSG get combat experience without being tested in the field?

 

[Yodha]

Not dissing the Tavor at all nor defending the AR. ..just pointing out that for SOF conventional layout has an edge over the Bullpup. Was pointing out the Tavor as it's the primary Bullpup we have and like you said - here to stay - atleast in the quantities we have.

And for the record - if you rotate your firing hand wrist with the rifle. The mag does hit the side. It's happened to me. Manipulating the Bullpup is not thrnmost comfortable nor does it feel the most natural compared to a conventional layout .

Maybe if we meet somewhere I can explain via personal animation.

Nonetheless my original post was in response to another member mentioning the Tavor - we can continue of the small arms thread if needed

One addition I want to see is a dual purpose fore grip rather than the bipod style layout. May be that can give the operator more control over the weapon with the other hand. But I don't know, it may or may not.

 

[Yodha]

Sixty percent of RR is infantry and almost everyone by now has had one or two tenures in RR. AR, SFF etc are also not bereft of that experience. It was only yesterday when guns fell silent in Assam, Nagaland and Manipur.

You think being regularly under medium artillery / mortar shells, facing ATGM, Sniper fire and all kinds of shit on LC is less than CT/CI exposure to say hello to a bullet. Me thinks all SF guys must be made to spend minimum one year in those forward bunkers of Jhangar, Baaz or Toothmari Gali, or Durga or Sarla battalions to realize what being under fire means. They can have an iron belt around their necks to save those from being cut off in a BAT action..

Sir, SF on LST stays with RR battalions and Infantry battalions (as much as I Know).

I believe we should include Mechanised Infantry and Gaurds on LOC. They do lack such an experience. Occasional Field firing is where they get happy.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

His name is written on his badge on his uniform.