Indian Special Forces (archived)

[Bhadra]

When you say "CRPF needs to come out of it's politicization and act as a proper armed force and ditch it's current skin", is it psy ops?

I dare you to find a halfway decent country which has a SF unit as ill equipped as ours.
In fact, find *any* country which is equipped worse than us.
Let's not even speak of the uniformity in gear either.

But that is not the only subject which makes SF.... the 100 pages is nothing but dress .. dress and dress .... all rants... even for Police special forces it appears as if only dress makes them special... rest all will fall in place.... My point is that they should sometimes of other things too..

It has become such an obsession that the other day CRPF QAT in Srinagar goes to barracks after operations, changes into new gears and then get lined up with perfect background and foreground for a photo op.... then that photos is touted as a great example of "dress"...

 

[Waanar]

But that is not the only subject which makes SF.... the 100 pages is nothing but dress .. dress and dress .... all rants... even for Police special forces it appears as if only dress makes them special... rest all will fall in place.... My point is that they should sometimes of other things too..

We cannot accurately judge tactics or even know them (owing to the secrecy of everything) and neither are most good judges here (half were surprised it's recommended to shoot with both eyes open).

This though, is long overdue.
Let's look at it another way. Let's say our SOFs were completing missions, killing terrorists, doing high speed stuff *but* with the standard issue rifle being M1 garand.
We wouldn't care about tactics as they speak for themselves but we would be screaming our lungs out because a M1 doesn't belong in the 21st century and should be dumped. It's the same here. Nations out there using GPNVG while we literally use Vietnam era tech (going by US terminology).

The rest can be criticized when we have adequate knowledge (Paras *do* have really shit room intervention method) but it all comes after we can see clearly that they've been handed the tools to make sure that's not because of gear falling short.

 

[Bhadra]

We cannot accurately judge tactics or even know them (owing to the secrecy of everything) and neither are most good judges here (half were surprised it's recommended to shoot with both eyes open).

This though, is long overdue.
Let's look at it another way. Let's say our SOFs were completing missions, killing terrorists, doing high speed stuff *but* with the standard issue rifle being M1 garand.
We wouldn't care about tactics as they speak for themselves but we would be screaming our lungs out because a M1 doesn't belong in the 21st century and should be dumped. It's the same here. Nations out there using GPNVG while we literally use Vietnam era tech (going by US terminology).

The rest can be criticized when we have adequate knowledge (Paras *do* have really shit room intervention method) but it all comes after we can see clearly that they've been handed the tools to make sure that's not because of gear falling short.

No sir, that is not the issue..

The issue is of the artificial macho image of SF created by the audio- Visual medium of Bollywood and Hollywood... The images of Rambo in India..those created by the likes of Vicky Kaushal, Jamal, Ferandese... etc .... where in body, biceps, dress, equipment. knives and guns makes one to have a self-projection of an SF operative...
In the self-projection what matters most is the image. Dress and equipment is 80% of that image... How can my image suffer when I see that in real photos...

It is a problem of Psy projection of the projector more than the real functional issue with SF..

 

[Waanar]

No sir, that is not the issue..

The issue is of the artificial macho image of SF but by the audio- Visual medium of Bollywood and Hollywood... The images of Rambo in India..those created by the likes of Vicky Kaushal, Jamal, Ferandese... etc .... where in body, biceps, dress, equipment. knives and guns makes one to have a self-projection of an SF operative...
In the self-projection what matters most is the image. Dress and equipment is 80% of that image... How can my image suffer when I see that in real photos...

It is a problem of Psy projection of the projector more than the real functional issue with SF..

You're right if you mean that "looks" don't make a soldier, training does.
That's not our point either.
Yet, a lot of the "looks" gear have very important purpose.
We lack IFF (Identification friend or foe) gear among our personnel like IR strobes.
These strobes make a world of difference in preventing blue on blue incidents in night operations.
We also don't use noise cancellation gears like COMTAC. That's bound to cause permanent hearing loss and reduce longevity of an expensively trained and important asset.
We don't have dual or quad tube NVGs.
A very nice and common picture floating around on the internet which shows how important GPNVGs can be compared to Duals below.

Keep in mind the picture above is the FOV of dual tube. We don't even have those.

So yes, I will agree again that looks don't make a soldier but devil's in the details. These aren't paintball gear, being all show and no go. There's a reason why other militaries spend so much on these things (and no reason why we don't other than sheer incompetence in personnel responsible for procurement of these things).

 

[Bhadra]

You're right if you mean that "looks" don't make a soldier, training does.
That's not our point either.
Yet, a lot of the "looks" gear have very important purpose.
We lack IFF (Identification friend or foe) gear among our personnel like IR strobes.
These strobes make a world of difference in preventing blue on blue incidents in night operations.
We also don't use noise cancellation gears like COMTAC. That's bound to cause permanent hearing loss and reduce longevity of an expensively trained and important asset.
We don't have dual or quad tube NVGs.
A very nice and common picture floating around on the internet which shows how important GPNVGs can be compared to Duals below.

Keep in mind the picture above is the FOV of dual tube. We don't even have those.

So yes, I will agree again that looks don't make a soldier but devil's in the details. These aren't paintball gear, being all show and no go. There's a reason why other militaries spend so much on these things (and no reason why we don't other than sheer incompetence in personnel responsible for procurement of these things).

View attachment 48645

I give in.....

 

[ManhattanProject]

every other SF looks tiptop except ours

ours look like a rag tag group of militants, i have seen people in syria with way better equipment.

 

[Snowcat]

Gotta love the quality of conversation we are having here, same shitty gear/uniform topic, Just keep on repeating the same shit all the time.
Gear is important, but not that much. Tactics, actionable intelligence are much more important things to converse about.
You people just want to give them the Gucci gear for photo ops, either be it suppressors or what not.

 

[aditya g]

@Bhadra - In Indian Army system, who is responsible to:

a. train the troops
a. equip the troops

Is it the Regimental Centre or Formation? Does my question make sense?

 

[Immanuel]

A prime example of over reliance on tech is Myanmar Ops, GPS signals don't penetrate most of the ingress routes, even Gucci gear like 4 eyes NVD won't pick up any light, you won't be able to see your own dick. Not to mention the terrain, the climate and super dense tropical jungle that is mined. This puts a lot of stress on the body. Helos enroute would certainly spook the enemy who has spies all along the way. High altitude Drones have been used for a long time for intel gathering. Those militants have a network of spies who monitor troop and convoy movements. Yet our boys overcome all obstacles along the way, hike more than 50km in less than 24hrs, slaughter the douches and return without any losses.

Again, a vast majority of the so called well equipped SF would be running around in circles in such circumstances. Para SF, IN Marcos and Garuds still have among the toughest, longest training regimens in the world.

 

[abingdonboy]

Be it Para SF, Garuds or Marcos, give them any mission they'll get it done. All they need is a bump in equipment, command structure and more of their own dedicated assets. SF need balls and leadership, the got that moreso than pretty much anybody on that side of that planet.

oh really? What about Pathankot when Garuds got cut down by some Paki terrorists? What about EDI where PARA (SF) lost entire elements to holed up terrorists?

I’m sick of seeing this nonsense paraded around as fact. I’m yet to see any evidence that the weapon handling and tactics of these SF units is anything special. They seem to have worse capabilities than US SF had 25+ years ago- look up any training video and it will confirm this. PARA SF/Garuds/MARCOs have sloppy and haphazard drills that don’t seem to reflect modern warfighting lessons.

USAF security forces (military police) seem to have more solid room clearing tactics than India’s most elite units. Certainly they have much better equipment.

SF only means dress and equipment.....
Our SF is very poorly dressed and equipped//


So our SF is very bad.... No one cares for them, no resources are given to them, they are neglected ....

That is the dominant theme of this thread.... deliberately, repeatedly, arguably and if nothing else by roughshod..

Is there some psy ops going on ????.....

How many times do we have to have this conversation? It’s not a fetish for equipment. It’s not a superficial judgment.

Capabilities flow FROM equipment. Unless you think there’s some superhuman quality in Indian waters that gives birth to freakish unnatural abilities like seeing in the dark or having bullets bounce off their manly chests?

I do have the question the abilities of a force that thinks it’s sensible to run around today with a rag on their head, a field load carrier on their chest and a pistol holster incorrectly strapped to the front of their thigh.

it shows a lack of seriousness.


Compare them to even an modern infantry unit in the US where head to toe the equipment is heard towards enhancing combat effectiveness and has had genuine thought go into its development.

or do you actually think countries spend $100,000s on equipping individual SF operators just for fun?

take out the Tavor or M4 I’d be surprised if the average SF soldier in India gets $300 USD worth of equipment issued to them.

we are still here arguing about the pros and cons of making Indian SF not look like an African militia meanwhile the Africans themselves are emulating Western top line units.

I don’t understand why some make out this is somehow an impossible task that for some reason Indian SF are so unique that they must remain stuck in the 1960s equipment wise. That new equipment is inherently flawed and won’t make them even 1% more effective.

Stop making excuses for mediocrity, in any other discipline these losers would’ve been demoted or fired long ago. Celebrating these units perpetuates the problem.

 

[abingdonboy]

Gotta love the quality of conversation we are having here, same shitty gear/uniform topic, Just keep on repeating the same shit all the time.
Gear is important, but not that much. Tactics, actionable intelligence are much more important things to converse about.
You people just want to give them the Gucci gear for photo ops, either be it suppressors or what not.

There’s no evidence indian units have superior tactics either. Arguably there’s plenty of evidence their standards and capabilities are subpar

 

[ManhattanProject]

There’s no evidence indian units have superior tactics either. Arguably there’s plenty of evidence their standards and capabilities are subpar

looking at the losses we bear on every CT op tells me their tactics arent anything to write home about. Our tactics seem to be just throw men at the terrorists, the value of an indian soldier is very low.

 

[WARREN SS]

oh really? What about Pathankot when Garuds got cut down by some Paki terrorists? What about EDI where PARA (SF) lost entire elements to holed up terrorists?

I’m sick of seeing this nonsense paraded around as fact. I’m yet to see any evidence that the weapon handling and tactics of these SF units is anything special. They seem to have worse capabilities than US SF had 25+ years ago- look up any training video and it will confirm this. PARA SF/Garuds/MARCOs have sloppy and haphazard drills that don’t seem to reflect modern warfighting lessons.

USAF security forces (military police) seem to have more solid room clearing tactics than India’s most elite units. Certainly they have much better equipment.

How many times do we have to have this conversation? It’s not a fetish for equipment. It’s not a superficial judgment.

Capabilities flow FROM equipment. Unless you think there’s some superhuman quality in Indian waters that gives birth to freakish unnatural abilities like seeing in the dark or having bullets bounce off their manly chests?

I do have the question the abilities of a force that thinks it’s sensible to run around today with a rag on their head, a field load carrier on their chest and a pistol holster incorrectly strapped to the front of their thigh.

it shows a lack of seriousness.


Compare them to even an modern infantry unit in the US where head to toe the equipment is heard towards enhancing combat effectiveness and has had genuine thought go into its development.

or do you actually think countries spend $100,000s on equipping individual SF operators just for fun?

take out the Tavor or M4 I’d be surprised if the average SF soldier in India gets $300 USD worth of equipment issued to them.

we are still here arguing about the pros and cons of making Indian SF not look like an African militia meanwhile the Africans themselves are emulating Western top line units.

I don’t understand why some make out this is somehow an impossible task that for some reason Indian SF are so unique that they must remain stuck in the 1960s equipment wise. That new equipment is inherently flawed and won’t make them even 1% more effective.

Stop making excuses for mediocrity, in any other discipline these losers would’ve been demoted or fired long ago. Celebrating these units perpetuates the problem.

You Wouldn't able change there mindset dude the Whole Services need a modern overhaul
They Stuck in an mindset of Martial propaganda of Ancient India

This is how rajput Were defeated by Mughals They were Trapped in there Moralistic religious dago-ma And false Sense of Pride
To slow To adopt Technology of that time

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khanwa

The Battle of Khanwa demonstrated that Rajput bravery was not enough to counter Babur's superior generalship and organizational skills. Babur himself commented:

"Swordsmen though some Hindustanis maybe, most of them are ignorant and unskilled in military move and stand, in soldierly counsel and procedure."

Rana Sanga managed to evade capture and escape to Chittor, but the grand alliance he had built collapsed. Quoting Rushbrook Williams, Chandra writes:

The powerful confederacy which depended so largely for its unity upon the strength and reputation of Mewar, was shattered by a single defeat and ceased henceforth to be a dominant factor in the politics of Hindustan.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

You Wouldn't able change there mindset dude the Whole Services need a modern overhaul
They Stuck in an mindset of Martial propaganda of Ancient India

This is how rajput Were defeated by Mughals They were Trapped in there Moralistic religious dago-ma And false Sense of Pride
To slow To adopt Technology of that time

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khanwa

The Battle of Khanwa demonstrated that Rajput bravery was not enough to counter Babur's superior generalship and organizational skills. Babur himself commented:



Rana Sanga managed to evade capture and escape to Chittor, but the grand alliance he had built collapsed. Quoting Rushbrook Williams, Chandra writes:

I don't think IA is focused about martial concept of past.
Even if they believe special forces soldiers are superior to others it's based on training and selection process which is very robust.

Tho it was Pakistan which used to focus on that coward hindu baniya cannot stand against Islamic moral in 1965 war.

Tho they require modern updates. IA is particularly slow because of imperial working system and methods government have started to break them creation Of CDS is one part of it.

It's not relevant to bring historical defeats in current era conflicts.

 

[WARREN SS]

I don't think IA is focused about martial concept of past.
Even if they believe special forces soldiers are superior to others it's based on training and selection process which is very robust.

Tho it was Pakistan which used to focus on that coward hindu baniya cannot stand against Islamic moral in 1965 war.

Tho they require modern updates. IA is particularly slow because of imperial working system and methods government have started to break them creation Of CDS is one part of it.

It's not relevant to bring historical defeats in current era conflicts.
Moral is very much required martial concepts can be used to boost soldiers.

Again I did give you just one description
Maratha's And Sikhs Adopted Techno concentric units And organized Military and modern Weapons
That is Why they able to Exterminate such powerful Empires


Maratha's ended mughals
And Sikh Mishals defeated Durrani's & Pashtuns


“Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.”
― Edmund Burke

 

[Rohan Naik]

SF only means dress and equipment.....
Our SF is very poorly dressed and equipped//


So our SF is very bad.... No one cares for them, no resources are given to them, they are neglected ....

That is the dominant theme of this thread.... deliberately, repeatedly, arguably and if nothing else by roughshod..

Is there some psy ops going on ????.....

No psy ops, it's the a

ours look like a rag tag group of militants, i have seen people in syria with way better equipment.

it's not a psy ops by any means. I just meant to say that well groomed and equipped resource (soldiers) feel more confident. Their motivation levels will surely be high (not saying its low) and will favour them in person projection against enemy lines.

 

[Rohan Naik]

No psy ops, it's the a
it's not a psy ops by any means. I just meant to say that well groomed and equipped resource (soldiers) feel more confident. Their motivation levels will surely be high (not saying its low) and will favour them in person projection against enemy lines.

*will be favaourable against enemy lines

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Again I did give you just one description
Maratha's And Sikhs Adopted Techno concentric units And organized Military and modern Weapons
That is Why they able to Exterminate such powerful Empires


Maratha's ended mughals
And Sikh Mishals defeated Durrani's & Pashtuns


“Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.”
― Edmund Burke

India have surely made progress towards being a 21st century military force especially in strategic systems which are indigenously developed systems. It's just that Special forces for now are low in importance level.

Some slogans and cultural elements can be just used to boost moral of the forces that doesn't mean they are medieval. Every armed forces have these type of cultural things.

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

MARCOS in the valley

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

NSG SAG